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I would agree with the above. Brutes are not tanks. I see so many people who think Brutes should tank and in some situations they can but what they are best at is Endless Fury based destruction and mayhem.
Each Melee AT has slight differences while similar in a lot of ways. Scrappers play differently too, yes you can play them like Brutes but they do not have the ugency of Fury.
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Not to side track this thread any further but what AT redside do you think is best to soak the damage for the team? I dont see any other ATs with Taunt implemented into their build.
Tell me that Masterminds and VEATs are better suited for the job.
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Trance is undisputably right. Brutes are a single target, but MMs on the other hand depend on pets, and since most of the bodyguard protection comes from the Tier 1 pets you're out of luck if the enemy has AoEs. Brutes are solid, primary targets with enough of a secondary (usually) to back them up.
I'd still advise Brutes tank over MMs.
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these words came from CASTLE:|
Originally Posted by imported_Othed
MM are Jack of All trades they cant tank. When you tank you take the Alpha and keep the aggro. MM are build to take the Alpha but not build to keep the aggro. MM play the same 'ROLE' as scrappers off tank. when the brute dies the a good MM can setup and safe a total wipe. Just like a scrapper. Also the MM can debuff like a corr/defender, heal like them, damage like the ranged and melee classes. Now i did say that not all brutes are tanks , they can be setup like scrapper off-tank and massive damage 3% more then a scrapper can do on avg. Put in general terms and labels yes MM are not tanks but they can take the alpha, buff, debuff, heal, damage, off tank, and what ever labels are left. But to label a class as unique and veristal as the MM as tanks is narrow minded. LOL i need to start a MM. Now to simple label the brute as just tanks is narrow minded too but i did say that not all brutes tank. /EA, /FA, /Ele, and /SD are good non-tanking sets damage sets . /WB /inv are good middle or the road sets were /SR /SD and /SA are tankings sets. /SD is the more veristal as in it brings alot of extra damage. I may have missed a secoundary but you get the point
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"I don't think Invulnerability needs help in PVE in the general case. PVP? Different story. Specific instances in PVE? Different story.
BTW, here's something I don't think has ever been publicly stated before, but is "true" -- Masterminds were meant to be the Tanker equivalents on the Villainside, not Brutes. Brutes tend to overperform compared to what the original design was, they were meant to be closer to scrappers than to tankers. That mindset has evolved quite a bit based on how players are actually playing, but that was the original idea. And, before things go south, no, we aren't planning any changes based on that. I just wanted to offer a bit of "behind the scenes" insight. "
There you go. Enjoy.
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Using this to say that MM's are the redside tankers as opposed to brutes is well, stupid. There is one word in there that is key, that word is WERE. Yes, when CoV was released that was the intention, that changed pretty quickly. |
Originally Posted by wasabivirus
these words came from CASTLE:
"I don't think Invulnerability needs help in PVE in the general case. PVP? Different story. Specific instances in PVE? Different story. BTW, here's something I don't think has ever been publicly stated before, but is "true" -- Masterminds were meant to be the Tanker equivalents on the Villainside, not Brutes. Brutes tend to overperform compared to what the original design was, they were meant to be closer to scrappers than to tankers. That mindset has evolved quite a bit based on how players are actually playing, but that was the original idea. And, before things go south, no, we aren't planning any changes based on that. I just wanted to offer a bit of "behind the scenes" insight. " There you go. Enjoy. |
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Originally Posted by Bookkeeper_Jay
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[ QUOTE ] I would agree with the above. Brutes are not tanks. I see so many people who think Brutes should tank and in some situations they can but what they are best at is Endless Fury based destruction and mayhem. Each Melee AT has slight differences while similar in a lot of ways. Scrappers play differently too, yes you can play them like Brutes but they do not have the ugency of Fury. [/ QUOTE ] Not to side track this thread any further but what AT redside do you think is best to soak the damage for the team? I dont see any other ATs with Taunt implemented into their build. Tell me that Masterminds and VEATs are better suited for the job. [/ QUOTE ] Trance is undisputably right. Brutes are a single target, but MMs on the other hand depend on pets, and since most of the bodyguard protection comes from the Tier 1 pets you're out of luck if the enemy has AoEs. Brutes are solid, primary targets with enough of a secondary (usually) to back them up. I'd still advise Brutes tank over MMs. |
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Originally Posted by Clouded
HI Othed,
My name is Clouded, well not really. I've been playing this game for 3 years and have played all ATs. My first 50 was a brute and I have sinced leveled 2 others to 50, 1 to 48 and many others in their 30s. I like brutes. I know what they are capable of and what they can and cannot withstand. I've played Masterminds as well and can make side by side comparisons between the two ATs. I play both similar in the fact I dive head first into the mob. With the MM, I'm keeping my pets alive and dropping my debuffs or buffs. With my brute, I'm punching stuff until it's dust. Do you seem where I'm going? I don't hold aggro on either AT because CoV plays a bit differently then CoH, in my opinion. CoV ATs are much more self-reliant and can manager any aggro much better then their blue side counterparts. So neither AT meets your definition of tanking and they shouldn't. Either one CAN TANK if neccesary but that's not the same thing. p.s. Please use better sentence structure when posting. I skim half your posts because my brains starts to squel. |
Is a brute a tank. No, it is not. It is not a scrapper either. It sits almost dead in between them. It has damage similar to a scrapper true, but it has the survivability POTENTIAL of a tank. It has taunt available to it, which means it can control aggro well. Now, if you are willing to go crazy with IOs, you can make them tougher than a tank in SOs, with crazy damage to boot.
MM's, while originally meant to be the aggro management AT of villains, did not become that. The key reason being, a whole lot of people just never learned how to play them correctly. The player base tried to push brutes into it. They had sets matching tanks moreso than matching scrappers, and had taunt, so of course they were tanks(this is said with sarcasm).
My first toon redside, which was the first I got to 40, then 50 redside, was a MM. Could I tank with him, hell yes, very easily. I mostly duo with my gf, her first Villain was a brute. We kind of traded off on tanking duty. She would jump the toughest one while I mauled the minions and lt's. If there was a type of mob that was particularly painful for her brute, I would stomp it. My second 50 was a brute, which I can quite easily tank with as well.
Villains plays differently than Heroes. Unfortunately, when villains was released, the player base tried to make a square peg fit a round hole. When it comes to tactics, Villains is offensively oriented, and Heroes defensively. This is the reason there was no traditional healer set when Villains was released. You kill it before it kills you. Some people still try to make the square peg fit in the round hole.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
I always found it amusing that MM's were envisioned to be "damage takers". Orginally it was designed to send the pets in and take the afla strikes and kill pets not people. Thats was a total failure. Just really slow resummoning pets. Then they came out with the body guard option. By then I already had my MM to 50. That made masterminds much more survivalable but did nothing to protect them from stuns and such. Finally It was just settle on to let brutes be the general damage takers. Brutes had always been built to take a beating. Certain Secondary's such as Stone and Invul became tank oriented leaving other secondary's like fire to be more damage based. When IO came out brutes saw a massive jump in their capability to take and aviod damage. More so the many other because with fury being where they primailly get damage they could focus on survivability and rechrage time set boosts. Recharge set boost were so common that a brute could get a fast building attack chain easy and also blow up def. They suddenly a pricey brutes was an exceptional damage taker and dealer.
In my experience as both a tank and a brute. A brute is "tankish", however where a tankers survivabilty lies in, well, surviving, a brute survivabilty lies in destroying everything in it's path fast enough to stay alive.
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There isn't a need to ever have one person to soak damage for a team. There is definitely a desire, and there are people who do it better than others, but it's never necessary.|
Originally Posted by TrancEnding
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I would agree with the above. Brutes are not tanks. I see so many people who think Brutes should tank and in some situations they can but what they are best at is Endless Fury based destruction and mayhem. Each Melee AT has slight differences while similar in a lot of ways. Scrappers play differently too, yes you can play them like Brutes but they do not have the ugency of Fury. [/ QUOTE ] Not to side track this thread any further but what AT redside do you think is best to soak the damage for the team? I dont see any other ATs with Taunt implemented into their build. Tell me that Masterminds and VEATs are better suited for the job. |
I think AE really skewed how a lot of people perceive toughness to be evaluated. There just aren't any regular content situations where you can get hit by that many consecutive seriously damaging attacks. Aside from the end of the level 50 strike forces, I can't think of a single situation in which I'd prefer my Brute to "tank" over my Mastermind.
I just love how this whole dichotomy of Brutes not being Tanks and all that jazz comes into any thread.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
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well those werent my words. and he explained his reasoning behind his thoughts
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
Using this to say that MM's are the redside tankers as opposed to brutes is well, stupid. There is one word in there that is key, that word is WERE. Yes, when CoV was released that was the intention, that changed pretty quickly.
If built right, brutes have only marginally less survivability than tanks. MM's, while being very sturdy, are easily taken out in certain situations, the AoE one being a very good example. This is misleading, and well, kinda silly. Everyone reading this knows what the OP is getting at. Redside, for a melee toon with the most survivability out of the box, that is the brute. Is a brute a tank. No, it is not. It is not a scrapper either. It sits almost dead in between them. It has damage similar to a scrapper true, but it has the survivability POTENTIAL of a tank. It has taunt available to it, which means it can control aggro well. Now, if you are willing to go crazy with IOs, you can make them tougher than a tank in SOs, with crazy damage to boot. MM's, while originally meant to be the aggro management AT of villains, did not become that. The key reason being, a whole lot of people just never learned how to play them correctly. The player base tried to push brutes into it. They had sets matching tanks moreso than matching scrappers, and had taunt, so of course they were tanks(this is said with sarcasm). My first toon redside, which was the first I got to 40, then 50 redside, was a MM. Could I tank with him, hell yes, very easily. I mostly duo with my gf, her first Villain was a brute. We kind of traded off on tanking duty. She would jump the toughest one while I mauled the minions and lt's. If there was a type of mob that was particularly painful for her brute, I would stomp it. My second 50 was a brute, which I can quite easily tank with as well. Villains plays differently than Heroes. Unfortunately, when villains was released, the player base tried to make a square peg fit a round hole. When it comes to tactics, Villains is offensively oriented, and Heroes defensively. This is the reason there was no traditional healer set when Villains was released. You kill it before it kills you. Some people still try to make the square peg fit in the round hole. |
I think that both brutes or MM are a part of a tank .
Brutes are half tank/half scrappers, then MM are half tank/half defender .
I said half x/half x, but i think this mitigation is defined too by the primaries/secondaries, and of course, by the group configuration .
Brutes can tank as well as if not equal with tankers DEPENDING ON THE ARMOR SET YOU CHOOSE
i have a fire/fire, i made him for fun as my first villain. he can take some damage but his nac comes in drilling a group of bosses with as much damage as he can hammer.
now my ss/stone and ss/invul are different, they can take a crap load of damage and deal a hell of alot too
but i'd hate to get into the "I'm a AE baby PL me" word of battles in this thread but the man asked what would be good for pvp and even tho he may have made his toon and got it to 50 already i'd say ss/fire or ss/wp
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I thought scrappers had challenge wich is a single target taunt and not at all like brutes and tanks? Also MMs have to dip into power pools to take a taunt, again not as effective as brute and tankers taunt (which is a better taunt than any other AT has access to in the game period).
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Originally Posted by Chrome_Family
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[ QUOTE ] I would agree with the above. Brutes are not tanks. I see so many people who think Brutes should tank and in some situations they can but what they are best at is Endless Fury based destruction and mayhem. Each Melee AT has slight differences while similar in a lot of ways. Scrappers play differently too, yes you can play them like Brutes but they do not have the ugency of Fury. [/ QUOTE ] Not to side track this thread any further but what AT redside do you think is best to soak the damage for the team? I dont see any other ATs with Taunt implemented into their build. Tell me that Masterminds and VEATs are better suited for the job. [/ QUOTE ] Scrappers have taunt are they tanks too? MasterMinds can tank since they have body guard mode which allows them to take alpha. Those that know how to use it, can attest to that. Also a side note* Statesman made the comment that many old school forum dwellers remember that when CoV was implemented that in his words MM's were the Tanker version of CoV meanwhile comparing brutes to Scrappers. So that is where it all orginated from. |
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brutes= scrapper/tanker|
Originally Posted by Grifdacier
I think that both brutes or MM are a part of a tank .
Brutes are half tank/half scrappers, then MM are half tank/half defender . I said half x/half x, but i think this mitigation is defined too by the primaries/secondaries, and of course, by the group configuration . |
MM= tanker/troller
dom= troller/blaster
stalker= blaster/scrapper
corr= backwards defender
@KoolVirus
An MM's more like a weird combination between a Corruptor, Blaster (or Scrapper if the pets are melee), and Tanker.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Pretty sure the title of this thread was asking for the best PvP Brute not a debate on the role of a Brute, especially as it compares to MM's.
To the OP: One thing I noticed is that every archetype is going to have some weakness to at least one other power type/archetype. There is just not a good way to say which is the best as it depends on the type of PvP and as the game evolves what strategy or archetype was dominant a year ago may not be so today.
If I HAD to role a Brute for PvP I would probably roll Dark/Willpower, Dark/Dark, Dark/Fire or Fire/Fire. Not too many holes.
I wish you the best of luck and hope whatever choice you make you enjoy it 
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Scrappers have taunt are they tanks too?
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They don't have taunt. They have confront.
Taunt is ranged AoE, but confront is ranged single =x
Big difference. (though it wouldn't really matter in pvp xP)