Does this offer include infamy by any chance, or just influence?
I have a red-side virtue VG that is newer and having trouble getting a viable base up and running.
[ QUOTE ]
Does this offer include infamy by any chance, or just influence?
I have a red-side virtue VG that is newer and having trouble getting a viable base up and running.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well that'd be a question to ask Fulmens, not me. 
My guess is that if he has billions to burn blueside he probably has it to spare redside as well...
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
opprime: I have a lot less redside, but I can spare 100 million.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
What server are you on Fulmens, id love to drop some into my base, on Freedom
I can do Freedom. Hero or Villainside?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Fulmens, first...you completely rock. And not "Aerosmith singing with Britney Spears at the Superbowl" style rock, I mean rock hard.
My global is @puhma and if you can help out the VG on Virtue, I'd forever be in your debt.
Send me an in game tell and/or a PM so we can work out the details?
[ QUOTE ]
I get a number of things out of this:
1) Knowledge. Do people who hate 500:1 feel that 250:1 is a fair ratio? So far I don't think they do- people who take 250:1 seem to be people who are also OK with 500:1 . If 250:1 got me a ton of offers I'd potentially be able to make a case for changing the infrestige ratio. As it is... nope.
[/ QUOTE ]
Back in Issue 9 a level 50 earned prestige at 100 Inf : 1 prestige. Since the (a) XP/INF smoothing, and (b) the 50% cap on Inf lost while in group mode means that level 50s can earn at a bit more than 50 Inf : 1 prestige rate.
Yes, the conversion rate sucks that much. So instead of converting at ten times the regular earned rate, you are offering at five times the earned rate.
Sorry, but the Registrars are committing grand larceny. People that have done the research will tend to avoid doing that conversion.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Maybe the word "Fair" was the wrong one to use. "Acceptable" maybe?
With the existence of the markets, inf and time have sort of decoupled, while prestige and time are relatively fixed.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Personally, if I could afford it, I'd sink TONS of inf into prestige. Unfortunately, I can't. I HATE the current conversion and think it's a sham, which is why I won't take 10 million of my 100 million inf and convert it to Prestige on Justice. On the other hand, on Virtue I only have a smaller (6 million total) amount of influence and a VERY small VG started. At this point the prestige just JUST valuable enough that I'm willing to suffer through unfair trading practices to get some more prestige for the VG so we can start adding teleporters.
If it weren't for fulmen's offer I most definitely wouldn't be though.
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the word "Fair" was the wrong one to use. "Acceptable" maybe?
[/ QUOTE ]
While acceptable might be the better word, I doubt (and this is not your fault) that most base builders would find a 500% increase "acceptable". After all back when it was 100:1 for defeating foes/completing missions it was still a 500% increase to convert through the registrars. We've been after the developers to change it since Issue 6 with no success. The fact that it is now over 1,000% should be a reality-check for the developers.
[ QUOTE ]
With the existence of the markets, inf and time have sort of decoupled, while prestige and time are relatively fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the exact reasoning we were given by the developers as to why the conversion really, really sucks. It was to block those with tons of Inf from buying a fully built base in a very short time frame. The reasoning actually has remained the same even with the markets.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
OK, I let my inbox get full. My bad.
I'm going to be sending global tells in game. I'm going to try to get everyone in between 6 and 8, Thursday and Friday.
By the way, Opprime, I can help you move money. Details in global tell.
(Edited for, hopefully, more coherence)
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Thanks so much to Fulmens. Now I can decorate my little base to my hearts content. Until I run out of Prestige again...which should be on Thursday.
By the way, if you are waiting to do the Prstige thing maybe try out Arc#11529 Behind the Painted Smile. Dive into Paragon's twisted art scene and save an aspiring actress. No AVs involved just good, clean (well you might get dirty at one point) fun.
Bashful Banshee
Enjoy your day please.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the word "Fair" was the wrong one to use. "Acceptable" maybe?
[/ QUOTE ]
While acceptable might be the better word, I doubt (and this is not your fault) that most base builders would find a 500% increase "acceptable". After all back when it was 100:1 for defeating foes/completing missions it was still a 500% increase to convert through the registrars. We've been after the developers to change it since Issue 6 with no success. The fact that it is now over 1,000% should be a reality-check for the developers.
[ QUOTE ]
With the existence of the markets, inf and time have sort of decoupled, while prestige and time are relatively fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the exact reasoning we were given by the developers as to why the conversion really, really sucks. It was to block those with tons of Inf from buying a fully built base in a very short time frame. The reasoning actually has remained the same even with the markets.
[/ QUOTE ]
The INF to Prestige conversion rate has been stubbornly fixed at 500:1 since I6, regardless of the multitude of changes to the game since then.
I understand the original intent behind the rate was to prevent people from building "instant-huge" bases, especially blueside bases which would've had an unfair advantage over the brand new redside bases at the time. But that consideration was also largely dependant on the PvP focus of SG bases which, as we all know, basically didn't materialize.
You make valid points about how XP/INF smoothing and the "50% cap on Inf lost while in group mode" updates have changed the dynamic of what players can expect to earn per unit time. Like you say 50:1 is probably a reasonable estimate now-a-days. But in addition to that I would argue ever since the latest rescaling of base construction costs, which massively reduced the Prestige costs of most everything involved with bases, that the Devs are effectively no longer concerned with the idea regulating the typical base size.
Put another way: If almost any SG can now have a super huge base with comparatively little effort why does it matter that much if there are still people out there who can "buy" that kind of base with a horde of INF? I know a number of SGs which now have bases with every conceivable toy/upgrade they can get for them and still have millions of Prestige lying around unspent. The idea that we still need a conversion rate to keep people from getting that kind of thing "instantly" is almost laughable at this point.
It has been years since the redside has had a chance to catch up to the blueside as far as hording INF and it has been years since people have made or blown fortunes of INF in the markets. Considering the amount of time that has passed and the major restructuring of base costs over the years I feel the 500:1 conversion ratio is out of date for all sorts of reasons now.
P.S. Besides like I implied before if the Devs actually made that conversion rate reasonable more people would do what Fulmens apparently wants by sinking their own INF out of the economy. 
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
My theory on the "right" ratio is unformed (to put it kindly.) Pardon me while I think in public...
1)From a developer's standpoint: Running in "Prestige" mode has to be significantly better than running in "inf" mode for a level 50. Reasoning: You will either have a system which encourages lowbies in the SG or one that discourages them. For better or worse, you're going to have ONE of those conditions; there is no "perfect balance."
2) Therefore you want people to make as much or more Prestige by playing lowbies than by playing highbies. Prestige is the only balancing factor we have. It's worth SOMETHING to SOMEONE.
3) Highbies will therefore never get, nor should they, "Exact equality" of prestige and inf. If you make 100% inf and convert it, a well designed set of rules should punish you compared to earning 50% prestige and 50% influence. Otherwise there's no reason for anything but inf-earning mode at level 50.
4) Highbies have the option of making "100% Prestige" by cashing in their influence AND DROPS for prestige. This isn't something lowbies can match. Something like 30% of the inf you get by playing a level 50 is from purple drops and 30% is from all other recipes. I didn't calculate that. I think TopDoc did. If true, you can triple your direct-inf by playing a level 50.
5) I'm going to list my oversimplifying assumptions. If these are wrong and throw off the model, by all means let me know.
5a) Level 50's and level 1's make "close enough" to the same Prestige per hour.
5b) Level 50's directly earn 50 inf per prestige point.
5c) Level 50's earn around 3 times the inf, after selling everything and counting direct awards, that they get in direct awards.
Current system: a 50 in "100% Prestige" mode gets 150 inf - generic recipes, purples, shiny set recipes, Pangaean soil, the whole shooting match- for every 1 point of prestige. Converting at 500 to 1, they get 1.3 prestige for every 1 prestige that a lowbie gets.
Proposed "50 to 1" system: a level 50 gets 150 inf for every point of prestige, and generates 4 prestige for every 1 prestige that a lowbie gets.
Presumed results: People concerned about prestige farm their 50's.
I've probably made some obvious mistakes in this analysis; what are they?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
I think the Devs have always had a concern about fostering an environment where lower level characters could significantly contribute to the Prestige generation of a SG. I have nothing against that fundamental concern.
But by the same token I think the protectionist mindset that lowbies ought to be able to generate the "equivalent" amount of Prestige that a level 50 can is a bit too utopian and idealistic. Level 50 characters are undeniably more capable than level 1 characters and rigging the system to force them to have the equivalent earning potential for a resource like Prestige is downright Marxist in nature. 
Ultimately the system should be calibrated so that level 50s can earn more Prestige than level 1s can, but not by an incredibly huge margin to make level 1s be completely pointless to an SG. It's all about reasonable moderation.
Like you I would never argue for an INF to Prestige conversion rate to be as good as 1:1 because that would grossly unbalance the differences between level 1s and 50s and make the whole "SG mode" concept pointless. Basically a rate of 1:1 would be as far too liberal as the current rate of 500:1 is far too conservative.
Thus my compromise suggestion is making the conversion rate be 100:1. This would encourage people to want to make use of that conversion while at the same time preserving the "point" behind having to make a strategic decision between playing in SG mode or not. A rate of 100:1 would make a level 50 a more efficient earner of Prestige for a SG than a level 1, but not by a wide enough margin to create a fear of prejudice against inviting lowbies to SGs. People who only allow active level 50s in their SGs to maximize Prestige earning are already prejudiced against lowbies today. That practice is not likely to -increase- with a conversion ratio shift at this point. Considering the massive lowering of base Prestige costs the motivation to min/max a SG's Prestige earning potential simply doesn't exist anymore regardless.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I get a number of things out of this:
1) Knowledge. Do people who hate 500:1 feel that 250:1 is a fair ratio? So far I don't think they do- people who take 250:1 seem to be people who are also OK with 500:1 . If 250:1 got me a ton of offers I'd potentially be able to make a case for changing the infrestige ratio. As it is... nope.
[/ QUOTE ]
Back in Issue 9 a level 50 earned prestige at 100 Inf : 1 prestige. Since the (a) XP/INF smoothing, and (b) the 50% cap on Inf lost while in group mode means that level 50s can earn at a bit more than 50 Inf : 1 prestige rate.
Yes, the conversion rate sucks that much. So instead of converting at ten times the regular earned rate, you are offering at five times the earned rate.
Sorry, but the Registrars are committing grand larceny. People that have done the research will tend to avoid doing that conversion.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. And the bigger, higher ranked SGs probably would too.
When I started my SG, being a "Master of the Market" so to speak, I made influence at WW and converted it. That was about...well...gotta be getting close to 2 years ago now.
We had a fully functional base in record time because ot the conversion, which of course made recruiting easier.
We ran at full roster most of the time, with everyone in SG Mode. But we still would not have made the top 100 back then in under 3 months if not for conversion.
Now, last I checked (about a month ago), we are at 19 on Freedom server.
I have stopped requiring SG Mode, but as it turns out most people play in it anyway. Those that don't do not get promoted, but they get the benefit of being in our SG, which has a couple events per week (working on getting more going).
Recruits have access to one enhancement bin in the base. First promotion unlocks more.
But regardless, I'm getting off topic. The conversion may seem like a waste of money...but it's not. Members playing in SG Mode is fast. Members playing in SG Mode plus conversion is faster.
I would suggest it for any new sg/vg...at least until they can get all the basics installed in hte base...and maybe the first generator upgrade.
I should add...after a lengthy discussin on these boards a month or two ago, I really don't care about ranking.
All the really matters to me is having the resources to build a complete base...with no limitations due to lack of Prestige.
We may be #19 now, wich is nice, or we may even be #16 by now...I don't care.
As far as I'm concerned, they should make the conversion rate 50:1...but that would not help the economy.
You see, that's where there's a crack in Fulmens reasoning. Let's say everyone exchanged influence for Prestige.
Then eventually, people would cease to care about the Prestige...once they have everything they want in their bases or the rank they desire.
And at that point, inflation would kick in again. So if this is being done to fix the ingame economy, it's a bandaid, not a cure.
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but the Registrars are committing grand larceny. People that have done the research will tend to avoid doing that conversion.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've done the research, and I've found it all depends on how quickly Inf can be earned. With market play, Inf can be earned very quickly. It can make even that horrible conversion rate tolerable.
That said, to earn Inf at that pace, you need to know what you're doing and you need to make a concerted effort in doing it. All your transaction slots (preferably the full 21) should be at work, and working efficiently, and you should be equipped with a substantial bankroll to start.
I left Prestige Farmers in the dust by marketing. But I think I qualify as a marketeer (specifically a crafting marketeer), and that seems to be an applicable designation for only a small minority of the player base. For most players, I wouldn't recommend using the conversion rate, even with Fulmens' generous offer added onto it. I might consider 100 million to be 'no big thang', but, in my experience, to most players, that's a substantial chunk o' change.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
... still got about half a billion to match, if anyone wants it.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Another satisfied customer reporting in.
My two man base now has teleporters to all available zones. Thanks Fulmans! Would have taken us at least a month or so longer to get to that point were it not for the prestige matching thing.
I'm Tealeaf, and I approve of this message.
See [URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=2134817#post2134817"]Useful Tagging for the good of the Forum[/URL], my guide to tags.
I think this is awesome that someone is willing to match and bring the ratio down to 250:1 trade on prestiege building. I think the devs need to bring it down to 150:1.
ArchRex Dojhrom x ?
* Sidus Loricatus: B-NRG2, S-BS/Reg, T-Fire/Ice, MM-Bots/FF, St-NRG2, Dom-Psi/NRG, Cor-Son/Traps, Cor-Ice/Kin, Ctrl-Fire/Kin, PB-LB/LA
* Arachnos Loricatus: Soldier, Widow
* Praetoria Loricatus: B-DP/Dev, Cor-Elec/Elec
OK. Burnt through the billion, plus a little. I'm shut down... for now.
I have only one promised transaction still to do (Sidhe-Bane.)
Everyone else, thanks for playing!
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
I'll be keeping an eye open for when/if you start this up again (great idea, btw). I got a lucky drop of a Respec Recipe a few days ago, and that gave me enough bankroll to give this market thing a try. I'd been trying to get over 100m (yeah, I'm an amateur) so I could try to get 75-100 matched to get my base off the ground.
(It's a bit shocking, at first, to see how much more prestige you need to go from "some workrooms and storage" to "energy/control/teleporters" 
)
Now I'll have time to raise a bit more....
Fulmens just PM me for a time. It has been so hot here that I have been keeping my computer off to protect it from frying.
[ QUOTE ]
restige ratio. As it is... nope.
I get a number of things out of this:
1) Knowledge. Do people who hate 500:1 feel that 250:1 is a fair ratio? So far I don't think they do- people who take 250:1 seem to be people who are also OK with 500:1 . If 250:1 got me a ton of offers I'd potentially be able to make a case for changing the inf
2) Inf destruction by the bucket. If inf gets turned into prestige it is out of the game. Inf that people are hoarding could get used for something else- costume contests, paying new SG members, midlife-crisis high end build, whatever- and it's back into the game. And it gets rid of some of my inf as well, causing me to make more, etc.
3) it makes people happy.
4) There may be some people out there who wouldn't otherwise think about turning inf into prestige, who now are considering it.
On point #2: Destroying ten billion inf is HARD. Doing it on market fees means selling a hundred billion inf of stuff. (or buying and slotting a hundred billion inf of stuff. ) This way is less work, although it burns through my personal money a lot faster.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again to be clear I'm not strictly criticizing you for your efforts.
I'm sure every person you help out with these deals appreciates it quite a bit.
Being nice to people just for its own sake is often, well, nice enough.
But I suppose I question the basic premise that having too much INF lying around out there in the game is intrinsically a "bad thing" which should be actively dealt with. For instance many of the things that you yourself mention like costume contest prizes or paying SG members seem to me to be relatively beneficial uses of spreading INF around.
As for the INF to Prestige conversion ratio being too unfriendly that topic has been debated quite a bit over the years. It has been generally accepted for a long time (at least as far as I knew from a mathematical argument point of view) that the ratio would probably have to be lowered to more like 100:1 instead of 500:1 for it to actually be considered "fair" from a time and effort standpoint of earning either of the resources in question. At this point it would have already been clear to many that "tricking" a net effect of a 250:1 ratio through actions such as yours would not have been enough to create a significant self-sustaining response to your proposal.
Ultimately your primary concern, which I assume has to do with the fear that prices in the markets are going to continue to rise, just doesn't seem to be -that- critical. Sure prices have risen over time and many could probably easily argue the prices are generally too high right now regardless. But I don't see a 'runaway' inflationary trend in the market. For instance purple recipes that are trading for 80-100 million INF now were trading for that much 6 months ago and so on.
I think by now if there was any impact to market prices caused by people sitting on hordes of INF the effect of that impact has already happened. Happened, as in past tense. Trying to spark a renewed campaign to get "excess" INF sinked out of the game now is a little bit like closing the barn door after the cows have run off. I don't think your intent to do something proactive to reduce inflation in this game is wrong per se, but I do think it's relatively futile all things considered. *shrugs*
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀