Revisiting the AE power-levelling issue
By
Avani,
Posted on: 2009-06-16 10:03 in Suggestions and Ideas
Seems you personally have a problem with what you call power leveling.
I feel so sorry for you, for being forced to be power leveled or forced to power level a perfect stranger, that must be aweful; don't yuo wish you had a personal choice?
Wait, you do have a choice! Just say no to that blind invite that might PL your lowered leveled character! Oh my goodness! Just say no that blind invite that might have you PL someone elses lowbie!
Mmm, that sounds like freedom of choice to me, why should you feel the right to deny others their freedom of choice?
Stormy
Okay, I admit it, I'm picky, elitist and on the whole intolerant. I openly confess that I am prejudiced against players who don't slot their Tell Backside From A Hole In The Ground inherent and don't want to end up teaming with them.
Sue me.
I only partially agree with you that the farming and powerleveling within AE are a problem. And not so much that they exist, but that they are so much more efficient than farming outside of AE is. And I think the root of the problem basically comes from 1 place. The ability to create all boss farms, or all LT farms. When farming normally, you can't find these conditions. Even on an 8-man team, you only get 2-3 bosses, plus a few lieutenants, and a cluster of minions. With AE, you can create a custom group of nothing but bosses, and get 10-15 of them per spawn. And with enough AoE damage and a good kin on the team, 10-15 bosses don't really take any longer to defeat than the 2-3 bosses that would exist in a non AE farm mission. This could easily be fixed by simply making it so that any custom group you create has to have at least 1 minion, 1 lieutenant, and 1 boss in it.
I don't think it'd be a good idea - legitimate missions might call for only one enemy type {can you say clone army?} and imposing creativity restrictions rarely yields more benefit than trouble.
Why can't the auto sidekicking thing be removed?
If people want ot play higher level content normally they must be sidekicked properly, why should AE be any different? I see no benifit to auto-sidekicking, all it does it present a host of power leveling opportunities.
I think the system is in place because it borrowed from the TF code...
Also, do we really NEED another thread about this? There is, after all, an official thread for these types of conversations.
[ QUOTE ]
Why can't the auto sidekicking thing be removed?
If people want ot play higher level content normally they must be sidekicked properly, why should AE be any different? I see no benifit to auto-sidekicking, all it does it present a host of power leveling opportunities.
[/ QUOTE ] That would work for me. My perma 46 will start getting a lot of use again.
At the moment, auto sidekicking kind of has to exist. That's because there's no limits on what level you have to be to start a mission (i.e. a level 1 can enter a mission that has level 40-50 only enemies). I'm pretty sure that's being changed in I15, so maybe the auto-sk will be removed. That won't completely fix the problem though. It'll just make perma-46's popular again.
Oh thanks for reminding me about the potential need for 46s again. Have to get one power leveled up before I15 hits.
Ummm, . . .
But, . . .
The auto-SK actually inhibits PL-ing.
If you are all the same level, you all fight.
You don't have -5lvl drone players just standing at the door.
You all get xp apropriate to your real lvl... not the SKlevel.
.
Except no.
Not exactly at least. SKed players don't get the same XP as a character thats actually that level but they do get more then their real level.
[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, . . .
But, . . .
The auto-SK actually inhibits PL-ing.
If you are all the same level, you all fight.
You don't have -5lvl drone players just standing at the door.
You all get xp apropriate to your real lvl... not the SKlevel.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope.
Add Requiem to a map.
Turn difficulty to the top.
Start mission with a level 50.
Enemies spawn at level 52.
Auto-SK to level 46.
Once again I find it very interesting that individuals refuse to follow Mod08's request related to ALL of these farm related issues whatever they are disguised as.
From Mod08:
[ QUOTE ]
Due to the many threads on farming, and the communication inefficiency that resulted from the diffuse nature of the discussion, we have decided to consolidate all discussion on farming into one thread. If you wish to discuss farming or any subject pertaining to farming, please discuss it here.
[/ QUOTE ]
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....e=0&fpart=1
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Thanks for reminding us officer!
No problem. Some people may not have seen the message.
Although, certain people just wanna go outside the designated area to draw attention to themselves, they need the reminder.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
[ QUOTE ]
Why can't the auto sidekicking thing be removed?
If people want ot play higher level content normally they must be sidekicked properly, why should AE be any different? I see no benifit to auto-sidekicking, all it does it present a host of power leveling opportunities.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. There is no need to auto sk at all. In fact I, unfortunately, ended up on an AE team a while back that were in their late teens early 20s trying to fight malta in the 40s. While it is a "challenge", if you can even call it that, it is still lame. The whole team wiped countless times and the leader...which was also the mission creator insisted we could defeat the very first spawn of Zues Titans and Gunslingers. These guys were obviously new to the game because they also thought that they would get more experience from defeating the much higher mobs. I tried to explain how XP works in this game to no avail. They insisted I didn't know what I was talking about and that the game was broke.
~ Infinity Heroes ~
Dark Voltage - 50 NRG/NRG/EM Blaster
Shure Shot - 50 Arch/NRG/MM Blaster
Silent Shadow Blade - 50 Katana/SR/BM Scrapper
Uphir - 50 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster
[ QUOTE ]
Why can't the auto sidekicking thing be removed?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because the devs want it in there, not to mention the countless reasons outlined here in the forums multiple times in multiple threads.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, . . .
But, . . .
The auto-SK actually inhibits PL-ing.
If you are all the same level, you all fight.
You don't have -5lvl drone players just standing at the door.
You all get xp apropriate to your real lvl... not the SKlevel.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope.
Add Requiem to a map.
Turn difficulty to the top.
Start mission with a level 50.
Enemies spawn at level 52.
Auto-SK to level 46.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I know about that.
Out of every hundred or so normal, auto-sk maps, I have played, I see about 1% of these exploit maps you describe.
but that is a small percentage of what people are talking about with auto-sk.
If you throw out all the auto-sk maps , instead of just the special exploit maps, then you do indeed bring back
perma-46 people,
people standing at the door doing nothing but soaking up xp.
Don't throw out the baby with the exploit bath water.
Get rid of the exploit you describe, somehow? Fine.
Get rid of auto-sk? No.
One of the the best things about putting teams together in MA is not having to worry about what levels you have, and how many mentor/sk pairs you have so far.
And I don't want to see people droning and just standing at the mish door.
.
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for reminding us officer!
[/ QUOTE ]
true.
But this thread, as opposed to the OP intent,
has really been less about farming,
and more about auto-sk as opposed to setting up mentor/drone teams.
.
The auto-sk complaint is a complaint about farming in disguise.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I do understand why people hav a problem with power-leveling,and I do agree with that,and I know why,but at the same time,I do not.
I remeber when I was on the verge of my first level 50,There was no one on either not wanting to join,or getting ready to log,so you know what I did?I went to lower levels for help.It is inevitable.You are going to have to SK and/or PL all at the same time to get help with your quest to 50!
i have a 46, a 47, 41 lvl 50, and i dont play boss only.
Im safe and ready for I15.
did i laughed????
me? really?
sry.
There are issues with AE, there are issues with farming, there are issues with PLg, in all cases they are different from each other.
It is important to search for the reason that brings these behaviors about.
Lets start with AE, why do we create an AE farm for? The real reason under neath it all, the one that causes the effect.
For myself, I find the prices at the market totally absurde, and my luck at getting good drops also totally absurde in the bad way. So by default I am forced to purchase my IOs, or get them via merits. I don't roll for IOS, all I get is the super rare, no one ever gets, legendary scarce: "Crap of the Hunter", "Pace of the Turtle" or "Call of the Sandman"; are they any other droppable recipies besides these?
So I want the darn Obliteration recipe! I need 80M to get it. Yhe only way I'm going to do it is do mission after mission, after mission and perhaps next year I might almost be able to afford it. So, I have to do many missions, agreed? Now I could a mission that takes me 30 min and make 50K influence, or I can do another mission in 30 min and get 250k influence, which one would you chose to do? Now what if I could find a mission, that gives as much influence as possible in 30 minutes, and has mobs that my class build is best suited to fight against? Would my giving preference to it, be really considered evil? Am I really exploiting the game? Now lets take it the next step, AE, what if I could design a mission in which it maximizes the benefits of my clas and build, and minimizes my weaknesses? Is that, once more, evil? Is that an exploit?
Now lets talk abut PLg, sure some newbie players may use it; but truthfully many of thsoe doing the PL have many 50s and are likely PLg themselves and being kind enough to let otehrs enjoy the ride as well. So rampant, blanket accusations of people being PLd and thus creating a huge pool of inept players, is simply false. Truthfully, thenumber of inept players is rather small, and when you do come across these players is a noticeable event, it is noticeable because it is not common.
One may ask, why are the level 50s PLg their lowbies, well there are many reasons, but mainly the content is the same ole thing, much content in blue side requires stupid amount of travel and inter zoning; while the devs considers travel the most possible fun a player may experience, the truth is: they are wrong, the 250,457th time going across SC from train station to train station is just as boring as the 50th time.
So we complain at the effect of things, but what we need to complain at, is the reasons these activities are done as a result.
Stormy
[ QUOTE ]
There are issues with AE, there are issues with farming, there are issues with PLg, in all cases they are different from each other.
It is important to search for the reason that brings these behaviors about.
Lets start with AE, why do we create an AE farm for? The real reason under neath it all, the one that causes the effect.
For myself, I find the prices at the market totally absurde, and my luck at getting good drops also totally absurde in the bad way. So by default I am forced to purchase my IOs, or get them via merits. I don't roll for IOS, all I get is the super rare, no one ever gets, legendary scarce: "Crap of the Hunter", "Pace of the Turtle" or "Call of the Sandman"; are they any other droppable recipies besides these?
[/ QUOTE ]
More and more, I'm seeing characters 40 and up who, on TFs or in teams, ask questions like "Where's Kings Row?" or "What's Ouroboros?" -- things that anyone who played their character up through the chain of contacts would learn, characters who have nothing but MA and level badges. People who [u]brag[u] about having gotten to level 50 without ever leaving Atlas Park except to go to an SG base to make IOs. In connection with this, the opening of the MA buildings has caused salvage prices to go crazy -- common salvage selling for three times the price that Luck Charms stabilized at, for example. People are running MA missions to get tickets to buy the expensive recipes they can't get any other way, and they're not getting the salvage drops they'd normally get in the process, so they wind up pillaging the auction houses for the salvage they need to build them.
Without affecting how people use the MA to get tickets for salvage or recipes, addressing the problem of characters who reach the top tiers of 'experience' without ever leaving the MA building is one of giving them a reason not to spend all their time doing MA missions. The idea that came to me during a discussion on the level-50 channel was that, for all its realism, the MA is just a simulation, and you don't really learn until you're actually [u]doing[u] it for real. Change the Mission Architect so that all the experience that would normally be awarded for defeating mobs and mission bonuses are awarded as patrol experience, which would then be awarded as experience while doing missions outside the MA. Since patrol experience is capped at ten bars, eventually you'd need to leave the MA and do real missions to advance your skills, but someone who was doing MA missions to earn tickets for salvage and/or recipes wouldn't be affected; the ticket drops would stay the same whether or not the character was earning patrol XP.
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
So, we all know the problem with AE farms, auto-sidekicking Lv54 PLing runs, and so on and so forth, for Arachnos etc etc, for lord Recluse, etc etc. It's also apparent that the measures to date, while alleviating the absolute worst issues, still failed to reduce the problem to at least manageable levels. With that in mind, I figured I'd take a stab at a plausible solution.
The first step in preventing any given situation is to analyze the conditions that enable it. In this case:
<ul type="square">[*] 1} A single enemy type tailored towards the least threat possible, facilitating the removal of need of skill, tactics or enhancements to defeat said enemy.
[*] 2} Large number and easy accessibility of farming missions fitting this template.
[*] 3} Automatic sidekicking negates any level gap between mission and player level, allowing characters of all levels to simultaneously reap full benefits of the mission, regardless of the influence they had on defeating the enemies.[/list]
Theoretically, breaking any of these conditions would severely hinder the number of power-leveling farms run, but it would be rather difficult to filter out the first two conditions reliably, not without an unacceptable number of false positives, especially as the methods start to mutate in response to filters. So, the only remaining opening is to hit them in the rewards.
It wouldn't be acceptable to simply deny characters below the arc's level entry - AE appears to be intended as an open system with little limitations as to who should be able to play what. Dropping the auto-SK would be little improvement, as there's no functional difference between playing a mission with enemies twenty levels above you and not playing it at all.
Thus, what I propose is a degree of ironic consistency in the AE sidekicking system. If a character is sidekicked by a number of levels past a certain threshold {like say, ten}, the experience gain rate scales to simulate the leveling rate of the sidekicked level. Thus, for example, a Lv1 character being sidekicked to Lv10 would gain experience at their normal rate, but if they were sidekicked above that level, the experience scaling would gradually assert itself at say, ten percent per level? So if they were sidekicked to Lv15, they'd incur a small XP penalty, at Lv20 they'd level at the speed a naturally Lv20 character would, SKed to Lv30 they'd level at the pace of a natural Lv30 character, and at Lv50 they'd level at the snail's pace of a Lv49, and so forth. That way, AE missions retain their accessibility, the influence and ticket drops remain consistent, but there's no longer an exploitable advantage to playing missions ridiculously out of one's level range.