Here's my 2 minute analysis:
Inv is moderate defense and good resistances with best in class S/L resistance. They also get Dull Pain. Inv is thematically a 'stand there and take it' type character, who shrugs off hits and dodges many of them. They have a solid defense most of the time, but have a rough time with Psi and Toxic damage, having no defenses to those damage types.
WP is too new of a set for me to really understand, but they have modest defense and resistances, and really high regeneration (reaching regen levels), and a weird damage debuff power. Compared to Inv, you take more dmg per hit, don't dodge as many, but heal it back very quickly. They don't have the same damage type holes.
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I'm confused. When reading the descriptions from both powersets, they seem too similar at first glance which makes me wonder why they are separate sets. What is the goal of each? How are they different overall, meaning how my character plays?
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The two sets are similar in design in that both sets are based upon multiple layers of mitigation, as well as defensive powers that scale in effectiveness based upon the number of foes in range. However the differences between the two sets are more pronounced than first glance would indicate.
Invulnerability is primarily a Resistance and Defense based set that also has a temporary big + hit points power as well as a tier 9 that will bring you to the damage resistance cap with even one resistance SO slotted, and an equally dangerous crash where you are left bereft of HP and Endurance. These factors make Invulnerability a peak performer capable of the 2nd best peak resilience in the game with no loss of combat efficiency. Invulnerability pays for this with having more downtime where you are less than peak.
Willpower is more of a consistent performer with an auto power that increases hit point, a plethora of powers that increase regeneration and endurance recovery as well as a smattering of resistance and defense. Should you decide to take it there is also a decent self rez. Willpower however cannot reach the peaks of performance Invulnerability can and has a thinner line between struggling through mobs and overwhelmed.
The final difference between the two is age. Invulnerability has been part of the game since launch though it did get a revamp in Issue 12, Willpower was introduced in Issue 11 I believe.
I haven't spent as much time time on a /Invul; however, my main is a WP scrapper. If you want to see some of the feats that can be accomplished with /Invuln, I'd check out this thread.
Here's my synopsis on WP. As has already been mentioned, it is built with a little bit of everyting. It has some regen mixed with a little invuln and a little super reflexes. All of WP's powers are set and forget as long as you have the recovery to keep them running. The defense of WP is mostly from a power you get later in heightened senses which defends against typed damage rather than positional like SR. The tier 9, Strength of Will, gives you some very nice resistance and boosts your recovery which can be a tremendous boon against tougher foes granted the foe doesn't last past the end crash at the end. The +HP is always on and not dependent upon a click power to activate as it does with Dull Pain in Invuln. Rise to the Challenge really makes fighting large groups much smoother as your regen rate scales with the number of foes within melee range. I know Invul has Invince? that is much the same way with your resistance scaling with the number of foes in range.
I am sure either set requires a certain style of play to get them to their peak performance and it really comes down to user preference.
Bottom line, take either set and give it a good run and see which suits you better or see if you don't love both.
WP is how invulnerablity used to play for scrappers. Now invulnerability is kind of meh. WP has everything you need to survive contained within the powersets where as invul you will need IOs and outside buffs to get the same level of survivability outside of unstoppable.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Now invulnerability is kind of meh.
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I would call that an opinion.
In my experience, it's anything but meh. Willpower, however, is very boring to me since it means zero interaction. Then again, to each his own.
Yeah, combining decent resistances and good typed defence is hardly meh. Most of the people I talk to who dislike invulnerability are trying to max out resistances and not paying attention to defence. This is a mistake. Once you start aiming for increased typed defence, invulnerability becomes powerful indeed.
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WP has everything you need to survive contained within the powersets where as invul you will need IOs and outside buffs to get the same level of survivability outside of unstoppable.
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My experiences with invulnerability and willpower are about equivalent, with no issues with either even before slotting set IOs. My invulnerability scrapper can dive into some things that my willpower scrapper gets quickly overwhelmed with. I can't disagree that Invulnerability gets a big boost from IO sets, but then so does willpower, and in the same area (typed defence). One stacks defence and resistance, the other stacks defence and regen. I'd happily play either one at any level of play.
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My experiences with invulnerability and willpower are about equivalent, with no issues with either even before slotting set IOs. My invulnerability scrapper can dive into some things that my willpower scrapper gets quickly overwhelmed with. I can't disagree that Invulnerability gets a big boost from IO sets, but then so does willpower, and in the same area (typed defence). One stacks defence and resistance, the other stacks defence and regen. I'd happily play either one at any level of play.
[/ QUOTE ] All I can say is prove it. I simply dont make invuls anymore because they cant take the same kind of beating a WP can overtime. Outside of Unstoppable invulnerability for scrappers sucks. WP was the smoothest ride to level 50 I have ever had with any toon. Invul not much so. Basically if it isnt smashing lethal you pretty much die or get overwhelmed. With IOs that could be different but WP with IOs is godly so it still comes out a head.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Not sure how I can prove my experiences to you, and I am not sure why you seem to think I am lying. I don't get any sort of commission for not hating /inv 
It's not my favourite set, either; that goes to /sd for the sheer fun. In any case, I can't tell you how I play and expect you to have the same impression, especially when you dislike invulnerability already.
edit: Now this is some amazing /inv in action.
Never take Invulnerable unless you're using a Tanker. It works amazing for the Tanker, and you truly become Invulnerable. But with a Scrapper, go ahead and take Will Power. It has good resistance to all power types and the damage that you do take, heals fast. You'd want to take every power in this set.
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It has good resistance to all power types
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I strongly disagree with this statement. WP has paper thin resistances to exotics (f/c/e/ne), 5.625% base and 8.775% fully slotted. It can be supplemented with SoW up to 23.4% - which is what Invuln can have all the time.
That's not to say that WP is weak to the exotics since it has a healthy dose of def.
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I'd check out this thread.
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Thanks! I can't wait to go through these!
And thanks Nihilii for taking the time to compile them.
I am really looking forward to making a new scrapper, and my two leading secondaries are Inv and WP. This thread is very helpful.
This may or may not help you choose but, Willpower is very discrete, glowy but discrete. Some people dig that. (I don't).
Invul turns you in a glorious beacon of awesomeness, sparks and light and effects all over that scream "come and do your stuff, I can take it", without being an eyesore like say, fire armor.
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All I can say is prove it. I simply dont make invuls anymore because they cant take the same kind of beating a WP can overtime. Outside of Unstoppable invulnerability for scrappers sucks. WP was the smoothest ride to level 50 I have ever had with any toon. Invul not much so. Basically if it isnt smashing lethal you pretty much die or get overwhelmed. With IOs that could be different but WP with IOs is godly so it still comes out a head.
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(This is from the perspective of an IO'd build that concentrates on defense.)
My Invuln at 48 already has a base 35% def in all except Psi. By the time I finish the build I expect to have, with one enemy in range, around 40% in F/C/E/N and around 35% in S/L. My S/L resist is ~70% and my exotics are ~23%. The only thing I lack is a self heal; I decided early that non-Inspiration play was not a goal for this particular character and went with Hasten instead. (I plan on popping greens.)
If I ever obtained a PvP IO I could jump to ~38/43/43 defense.
With that much base defense (one mob in range) it means I am capping my defense at 3 or 4 mobs. Against S/L I am virtually unkillable against anything short of an AV, and have no issue tanking AE Dual Blade Lt. ambush missions where spawns can get as high as 20-30 level 52 Lt custom mobs. I am not yet Stamina efficient enough to go after big game; I simply haven't obtained the Numina and Miracle Uniques for that particular character.
I also cap out Hit Points with Dull Pain. It has a 4 second downtime which I can probably shore up. That jacks my regen rate. In a whole map full of custom Lts. tanking 20 52s at a time I needed to pop a green inspiration only twice when they got lucky with combos, and I certainly could have simply jumped out of the mob and hit Shockwave instead.
If my primary was Dark and I could use Siphon Life the build would probably be as tough as my /Shield, significantly better against S/L, slightly better against F/C/E/N due to higher health leading to better regen and Siphon heal, and significantly worse against Psi. That does leave Shields with much better damage, but it has that advantage over every secondary.
Plus I'm not sure we want to start saying secondaries are insufficient because they aren't as good as /Shield.
That also leaves my Invuln significantly better most of the time than my SR, with the Psi hole being matched by "untyped" damage. The much higher hit point total means Invul gets more bang out of regen and heals and survives alpha strikes from most mobs better. Also, against custom EBs my SR tends to get taken out by Build Up cycles if I am slow. My Invul has the resistance and higher health to suck those up; against S/L I don't even think I'd have to interrupt my attacks.
I used to be very down on Invuln, but seeing my high performance Invuln operate I am a believer. My SG mate had the same crappy experience with Invuln and was going to reroll until he saw me on that mission; he simply didn't build towards typed defense. If I dropped Hasten and went with Aid Self I would be significantly more survivable most of the time over my SR. I might have to watch out during the Dull Pain down times against exotic damage types.
Invuln *does* require a bit of thought because you do have to herd a bit to cap defense. It means against AVs you will want to keep some minions around, but to anyone used to doing that for /Shields AAO it really isn't a hardship.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
Okay long and short.
/Inv is primarily a resistance-based set. It has some decent defense that (with proper slotting) can soft-cap you.
/Will is a mixed bag of defense, resistance, and regeneration. Will has slightly lower resistances, so it's a bit more vulnerable to enemies that chuck defense debuffs like confetti (like Cimerorans).
Willpower is a nice all-around set that is, slotted right, essentially easy mode those not wanting a very click-heavy powerset. But in a couple cases, if you get the aforementioned "cascading defense failure", you faceplant like a squishy.
Invulnerability is a bit more work to manage well, and has a couple of well-known holes Also, it really only has one hit-point recovery mechanism (Dull Pain), which is a click power.
That and the Tier 9 power is of only limited utility and has a nasty after-effect of cratering both endurance AND hit points. Essentially an "I win" button that's really an "I lose" button if you can't kick the badguy's backside before the power times out.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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All I can say is prove it. I simply dont make invuls anymore because they cant take the same kind of beating a WP can overtime. Outside of Unstoppable invulnerability for scrappers sucks. WP was the smoothest ride to level 50 I have ever had with any toon. Invul not much so. Basically if it isnt smashing lethal you pretty much die or get overwhelmed. With IOs that could be different but WP with IOs is godly so it still comes out a head.
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(This is from the perspective of an IO'd build that concentrates on defense.)
My Invuln at 48 already has a base 35% def in all except Psi. By the time I finish the build I expect to have, with one enemy in range, around 40% in F/C/E/N and around 35% in S/L. My S/L resist is ~70% and my exotics are ~23%. The only thing I lack is a self heal; I decided early that non-Inspiration play was not a goal for this particular character and went with Hasten instead. (I plan on popping greens.)
If I ever obtained a PvP IO I could jump to ~38/43/43 defense.
With that much base defense (one mob in range) it means I am capping my defense at 3 or 4 mobs. Against S/L I am virtually unkillable against anything short of an AV, and have no issue tanking AE Dual Blade Lt. ambush missions where spawns can get as high as 20-30 level 52 Lt custom mobs. I am not yet Stamina efficient enough to go after big game; I simply haven't obtained the Numina and Miracle Uniques for that particular character.
I also cap out Hit Points with Dull Pain. It has a 4 second downtime which I can probably shore up. That jacks my regen rate. In a whole map full of custom Lts. tanking 20 52s at a time I needed to pop a green inspiration only twice when they got lucky with combos, and I certainly could have simply jumped out of the mob and hit Shockwave instead.
If my primary was Dark and I could use Siphon Life the build would probably be as tough as my /Shield, significantly better against S/L, slightly better against F/C/E/N due to higher health leading to better regen and Siphon heal, and significantly worse against Psi. That does leave Shields with much better damage, but it has that advantage over every secondary.
Plus I'm not sure we want to start saying secondaries are insufficient because they aren't as good as /Shield.
That also leaves my Invuln significantly better most of the time than my SR, with the Psi hole being matched by "untyped" damage. The much higher hit point total means Invul gets more bang out of regen and heals and survives alpha strikes from most mobs better. Also, against custom EBs my SR tends to get taken out by Build Up cycles if I am slow. My Invul has the resistance and higher health to suck those up; against S/L I don't even think I'd have to interrupt my attacks.
I used to be very down on Invuln, but seeing my high performance Invuln operate I am a believer. My SG mate had the same crappy experience with Invuln and was going to reroll until he saw me on that mission; he simply didn't build towards typed defense. If I dropped Hasten and went with Aid Self I would be significantly more survivable most of the time over my SR. I might have to watch out during the Dull Pain down times against exotic damage types.
Invuln *does* require a bit of thought because you do have to herd a bit to cap defense. It means against AVs you will want to keep some minions around, but to anyone used to doing that for /Shields AAO it really isn't a hardship.
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Defense is the name of the game in regard to top level survivability. Once you softcap, everything else is gravy, and you measure the sets against each sets gravy level at that point. Once wp and inv are near or at softcap, they are pretty even imo. Leveling up and not soft-capped however, I would give the advantage to wp thanks in large part to quick recovery and better overall survivability, especially on teams.
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Defense is the name of the game in regard to top level survivability. Once you softcap, everything else is gravy, and you measure the sets against each sets gravy level at that point. Once wp and inv are near or at softcap, they are pretty even imo. Leveling up and not soft-capped however, I would give the advantage to wp thanks in large part to quick recovery and better overall survivability, especially on teams.
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Agreed. Leveling up Willpower has several advantages.
Not only does Willpower have Quick Recovery, but it has *2* significant survival tools at low level that are passives which add no Endurance overhead. Having both a passive health boost and a passive regen boost adds synergy and survivability at no cost. This is really, really sweet.
Willpower provides up front defenses that are apparent and obvious before IO slotting. Invuln is end hungry and really only good against S/L until the end game when it can stack power pools, IO bonuses and fully slot its powers. Until then it is really kind of crappy and then jumps at the end. Willpower has a smooth survival curve all the way up and works very well end game with IOs and power pools.
Willpower alleviates the need for Endurance slotting with QR. This frees up set bonuses and, in the case of Conserve Power, power slots for other things.
Both depend on typed defense so both will unfortunately require slotting attack powers for defense IO bonuses to get near soft cap. This does cut into procs, purples, and other ways to tweak out DPS.
I am simply stating that I don't feel Invuln under performs in the end game. Maybe while leveling, but my suggestion is to level with Aid Self and then respec out of it into your end game build. Aid Self alleviated almost all of my leveling frustrations with Invuln.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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It has good resistance to all power types
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I strongly disagree with this statement. WP has paper thin resistances to exotics (f/c/e/ne), 5.625% base and 8.775% fully slotted. It can be supplemented with SoW up to 23.4% - which is what Invuln can have all the time.
That's not to say that WP is weak to the exotics since it has a healthy dose of def.
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it makes up for this though by getting decent levels of defense just from the set to those same exotic sets, and one cant ignore the generous amounts of psi resists. since none of the exotics debuff said defense except arachnoids poison claws it takes very little to build up a decent amount of defense to the exotics which when combined with the regen makes them less of a problem for wp than for invuln.
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All I can say is prove it. I simply dont make invuls anymore because they cant take the same kind of beating a WP can overtime. Outside of Unstoppable invulnerability for scrappers sucks. WP was the smoothest ride to level 50 I have ever had with any toon. Invul not much so. Basically if it isnt smashing lethal you pretty much die or get overwhelmed. With IOs that could be different but WP with IOs is godly so it still comes out a head.
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(This is from the perspective of an IO'd build that concentrates on defense.)
My Invuln at 48 already has a base 35% def in all except Psi. By the time I finish the build I expect to have, with one enemy in range, around 40% in F/C/E/N and around 35% in S/L. My S/L resist is ~70% and my exotics are ~23%. The only thing I lack is a self heal; I decided early that non-Inspiration play was not a goal for this particular character and went with Hasten instead. (I plan on popping greens.)
If I ever obtained a PvP IO I could jump to ~38/43/43 defense.
With that much base defense (one mob in range) it means I am capping my defense at 3 or 4 mobs. Against S/L I am virtually unkillable against anything short of an AV, and have no issue tanking AE Dual Blade Lt. ambush missions where spawns can get as high as 20-30 level 52 Lt custom mobs. I am not yet Stamina efficient enough to go after big game; I simply haven't obtained the Numina and Miracle Uniques for that particular character.
I also cap out Hit Points with Dull Pain. It has a 4 second downtime which I can probably shore up. That jacks my regen rate. In a whole map full of custom Lts. tanking 20 52s at a time I needed to pop a green inspiration only twice when they got lucky with combos, and I certainly could have simply jumped out of the mob and hit Shockwave instead.
If my primary was Dark and I could use Siphon Life the build would probably be as tough as my /Shield, significantly better against S/L, slightly better against F/C/E/N due to higher health leading to better regen and Siphon heal, and significantly worse against Psi. That does leave Shields with much better damage, but it has that advantage over every secondary.
Plus I'm not sure we want to start saying secondaries are insufficient because they aren't as good as /Shield.
That also leaves my Invuln significantly better most of the time than my SR, with the Psi hole being matched by "untyped" damage. The much higher hit point total means Invul gets more bang out of regen and heals and survives alpha strikes from most mobs better. Also, against custom EBs my SR tends to get taken out by Build Up cycles if I am slow. My Invul has the resistance and higher health to suck those up; against S/L I don't even think I'd have to interrupt my attacks.
I used to be very down on Invuln, but seeing my high performance Invuln operate I am a believer. My SG mate had the same crappy experience with Invuln and was going to reroll until he saw me on that mission; he simply didn't build towards typed defense. If I dropped Hasten and went with Aid Self I would be significantly more survivable most of the time over my SR. I might have to watch out during the Dull Pain down times against exotic damage types.
Invuln *does* require a bit of thought because you do have to herd a bit to cap defense. It means against AVs you will want to keep some minions around, but to anyone used to doing that for /Shields AAO it really isn't a hardship.
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Defense is the name of the game in regard to top level survivability. Once you softcap, everything else is gravy, and you measure the sets against each sets gravy level at that point. Once wp and inv are near or at softcap, they are pretty even imo. Leveling up and not soft-capped however, I would give the advantage to wp thanks in large part to quick recovery and better overall survivability, especially on teams.
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not quite. willpower still has the added layer of superior regeneration
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It has good resistance to all power types
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I strongly disagree with this statement. WP has paper thin resistances to exotics (f/c/e/ne), 5.625% base and 8.775% fully slotted. It can be supplemented with SoW up to 23.4% - which is what Invuln can have all the time.
That's not to say that WP is weak to the exotics since it has a healthy dose of def.
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it makes up for this though by getting decent levels of defense just from the set to those same exotic sets, and one cant ignore the generous amounts of psi resists. since none of the exotics debuff said defense except arachnoids poison claws it takes very little to build up a decent amount of defense to the exotics which when combined with the regen makes them less of a problem for wp than for invuln.
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Which is why I specifically said that WP wasn't weak to exotics in the last line of that post. I was saying it did not have good resistance to all damage types like powerfuse said. That is all.
Also, exotics can debuff defense - see rad blast.
[edit: Btw, a lot of def debuffs come from lethal attacks, which WP has almost no defense to. This means that those attacks can cascade its exotic defense. Invuln's def resistance is also much stronger, mitigating this.]
Invulnerability is a great set for Tankers, not so much so for Scrappers and Brutes. Both are fairly intuitive, set-and-forget defensive sets.
Invulnerability's advantage for tankers is that it's far, far easier to hold aggro with it, and the higher values of the tanker in both resistance and defense tend to multiply, especially since the marginal value of an additional point of resistance goes up sharply once you get resistance above 50%. Invulnerability is also clearly better for eating the alpha strike of a large team spawn: and if you're doing that often, you should be doing it on a tanker.
Willpower gives melee DPS that also take Stamina a huge pool of endurance, keeping them in the fight longer. The regeneration of Willpower is mostly indifferent to the type or position of incoming damage. You mostly don't need to worry about the strength of your taunt aura. You will be weaker to big alphas; but Tough and Weave help a lot, and you can sustain them far easier without costly IO bonuses than the Invulnerability tanker can.
I like my Invulnerability tanker a lot. But probably the only reason I keep my Invulnerability brute is that she is the leader and foundress of my villain group, and all of my Invulnerability scrappers are long time gone. Willpower is currently tougher than Regen, and far more worry free.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Invulnerability is a great set for Tankers, not so much so for Scrappers and Brutes. Both are fairly intuitive, set-and-forget defensive sets.
Invulnerability's advantage for tankers is that it's far, far easier to hold aggro with it, and the higher values of the tanker in both resistance and defense tend to multiply, especially since the marginal value of an additional point of resistance goes up sharply once you get resistance above 50%. Invulnerability is also clearly better for eating the alpha strike of a large team spawn: and if you're doing that often, you should be doing it on a tanker.
Willpower gives melee DPS that also take Stamina a huge pool of endurance, keeping them in the fight longer. The regeneration of Willpower is mostly indifferent to the type or position of incoming damage. You mostly don't need to worry about the strength of your taunt aura. You will be weaker to big alphas; but Tough and Weave help a lot, and you can sustain them far easier without costly IO bonuses than the Invulnerability tanker can.
I like my Invulnerability tanker a lot. But probably the only reason I keep my Invulnerability brute is that she is the leader and foundress of my villain group, and all of my Invulnerability scrappers are long time gone. Willpower is currently tougher than Regen, and far more worry free.
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Hmmm. I think I would like to see more clarification about which phase of the game you are talking about. I disagree with the implied worthlessness of Invulnerability scrappers, but if you are not talking end game I can see where leveling one might be at times frustrating.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
My unscientific impression is:
Levelling: Regen > Willpower > Invulnerability
Level 50: Willpower > Invulnerability > Regen
I have never had a level 50 Invuln scrapper, only a Brute, while I do have level 50 Regen and WP scrappers; but my understanding is that the power values and order are identical both sides.
I begin with the assumption that the broken endurance mechanic is the worst design feature of the game. This makes the Regen scrapper the most inviting out of the starting gate. But if you succeed at getting your Willpower scrapper to level 22, at which point you will have both QR and Stamina if you build 'em like I do, your scrapper is tougher and less worrisome to play. There really ought to be a Regen brute.
A level 50 Regen scrapper is nervous. There are an awful lot of hard hitting enemies out there. Mine keeps Hasten on recycle. She has to pay attention to which of her self-heals are recharging, which are about to recharge, and which are available. I do not find this extremely entertaining; some folks apparently do. Tough and Weave help, but really not that much.
My level 50 Invuln brute looks for only two kinds of bonus from invention sets: recovery bonuses and maximum endurance bonuses. Every set IO she equips is chosen with those goals in mind. This tends to limit the amount of other things she can seek. I had to take out a damage enhancement and replace it with and endurance reduction on every attack (For basic SO/IO, I usually slot 2/3/1 acc/dam/end; she is 2/2/2), and the character still pants. She has the Perf. Shifter +Chance for Recovery and she still pants. Right now, she appears mostly for ceremonial functions involving the villain group.
Willpower means having it all. Tough and Weave help a whole lot, and do much more than for the Regen; for the Invuln brute they're almost unsustainable. My post 22 Willpower brutes and scrappers are simple engines of destruction; their defenses are usually equal to the task, their health may dip but comes right back up, and they are never found panting unless they are under a specific debuff.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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All I can say is prove it. I simply dont make invuls anymore because they cant take the same kind of beating a WP can overtime. Outside of Unstoppable invulnerability for scrappers sucks. WP was the smoothest ride to level 50 I have ever had with any toon. Invul not much so. Basically if it isnt smashing lethal you pretty much die or get overwhelmed. With IOs that could be different but WP with IOs is godly so it still comes out a head.
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(This is from the perspective of an IO'd build that concentrates on defense.)
My Invuln at 48 already has a base 35% def in all except Psi. By the time I finish the build I expect to have, with one enemy in range, around 40% in F/C/E/N and around 35% in S/L. My S/L resist is ~70% and my exotics are ~23%. The only thing I lack is a self heal; I decided early that non-Inspiration play was not a goal for this particular character and went with Hasten instead. (I plan on popping greens.)
If I ever obtained a PvP IO I could jump to ~38/43/43 defense.
With that much base defense (one mob in range) it means I am capping my defense at 3 or 4 mobs. Against S/L I am virtually unkillable against anything short of an AV, and have no issue tanking AE Dual Blade Lt. ambush missions where spawns can get as high as 20-30 level 52 Lt custom mobs. I am not yet Stamina efficient enough to go after big game; I simply haven't obtained the Numina and Miracle Uniques for that particular character.
I also cap out Hit Points with Dull Pain. It has a 4 second downtime which I can probably shore up. That jacks my regen rate. In a whole map full of custom Lts. tanking 20 52s at a time I needed to pop a green inspiration only twice when they got lucky with combos, and I certainly could have simply jumped out of the mob and hit Shockwave instead.
If my primary was Dark and I could use Siphon Life the build would probably be as tough as my /Shield, significantly better against S/L, slightly better against F/C/E/N due to higher health leading to better regen and Siphon heal, and significantly worse against Psi. That does leave Shields with much better damage, but it has that advantage over every secondary.
Plus I'm not sure we want to start saying secondaries are insufficient because they aren't as good as /Shield.
That also leaves my Invuln significantly better most of the time than my SR, with the Psi hole being matched by "untyped" damage. The much higher hit point total means Invul gets more bang out of regen and heals and survives alpha strikes from most mobs better. Also, against custom EBs my SR tends to get taken out by Build Up cycles if I am slow. My Invul has the resistance and higher health to suck those up; against S/L I don't even think I'd have to interrupt my attacks.
I used to be very down on Invuln, but seeing my high performance Invuln operate I am a believer. My SG mate had the same crappy experience with Invuln and was going to reroll until he saw me on that mission; he simply didn't build towards typed defense. If I dropped Hasten and went with Aid Self I would be significantly more survivable most of the time over my SR. I might have to watch out during the Dull Pain down times against exotic damage types.
Invuln *does* require a bit of thought because you do have to herd a bit to cap defense. It means against AVs you will want to keep some minions around, but to anyone used to doing that for /Shields AAO it really isn't a hardship.
[/ QUOTE ]But how soon can you do this? Almost near the end of the characters career, unlike WP where you get most of what you need for standard play by level 28. For extreme play you would have to wait for SoW. Even still if I took the same approach you did I would be just as unkillable with WP if not more unkillable (if this is even a word). The thing is why deal with piss poor performance for 40+ levels when WP is great from level 16 onward. To me invul for scrappers just hasnt been good enough since the defensive nerfs in issue 5. That minor buff we got a few months back was just fluff that doesnt really help. I pretty much never die of end drain unless its LGTF and never had issues were recharge was an issue as I take hasten on all my toons. Defense debuff resistance again is worthless unless its really high levels like SR. Till invul gets a real buff I wont be touching it again.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Enough already. First it was /WP vs /regen. Now it /WP vs /invul. I don't believe that any of the sets are better then other. They just do certain things better and you have to play each differently. I seen people play /invul, /SD, /SR, /DA, and /fire that made made say "wow". I've caused "wow on /regen and /WP (I'm still working at it with /fire and /invul). On the same note, I've seen some people bring shame to those sets. You shouldn't worry about what one set can't do. Worry about what it can do and make do it so well that the stuff it can't do won't matter. If you still want to argue about it, I say yall copy your respected scrappers to test and take it to arena and box it out. The last one standing gets to say their set is better.
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
I'm confused. When reading the descriptions from both powersets, they seem too similar at first glance which makes me wonder why they are separate sets. What is the goal of each? How are they different overall, meaning how my character plays?