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Enough already. First it was /WP vs /regen. Now it /WP vs /invul. I don't believe that any of the sets are better then other.
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No, no, Willpower is clearly superior to all other secondaries. We have all these debates all the time so that people will learn there is only one secondary worth playing. Why the forum population still insists on playing and loving all secondaries is inexplicable, perhaps the result of some form of collective delusion brought about by wanting to believe they're even in the same league as Willpower. It's madness![/sarcasm]
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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But how soon can you do this? Almost near the end of the characters career, unlike WP where you get most of what you need for standard play by level 28. For extreme play you would have to wait for SoW. Even still if I took the same approach you did I would be just as unkillable with WP if not more unkillable (if this is even a word).
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You are writing this like I somehow disagree with you and didn't agree and comment with this sentiment several posts later. Invuln is rough without I/O unless you are fighting S/L where it isn't bad. I will point out that for me at least the run up with SR was just as bad.
If it bothers you do what I did for both my Invuln and SR; pick up Aid Self in the late 20s. At that time Aid Self is probably the biggest defensive boost you can get. Without it the Cimers were simply not possible at level 35, I'd have to rest after every spawn. With it they were no problem. They would do 3/4 of my bar every spawn but my AS would be up again and I could hum along.
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The thing is why deal with piss poor performance for 40+ levels when WP is great from level 16 onward.
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Well, WP is one of the sets designed by the current team in the modern era of CoH. Not only do I believe Castle is most of the time simply a better designer than, say, Geko but to be fair to the previous team he has hindsight to learn from.
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To me invul for scrappers just hasnt been good enough since the defensive nerfs in issue 5. That minor buff we got a few months back was just fluff that doesnt really help. I pretty much never die of end drain unless its LGTF and never had issues were recharge was an issue as I take hasten on all my toons. Defense debuff resistance again is worthless unless its really high levels like SR. Till invul gets a real buff I wont be touching it again.
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The difference isn't all those things, although that fluff stuff is nice to have.
The biggest buff was finally losing the defense penalty from Unyielding. A 5% penalty would drop end game builds from ~40% defense to ~35% defense with 5 minions be the difference in capping. This change was the biggest buff. The way the game currently works and the way builds flirt with the soft cap adding 5% effective defense is a huge buff.
If they buffed Invuln again defensively it would be too powerful at the high end with Tough and Weave and IOs.
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But how soon can you do this?
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So, now that I have explained that I agree with you and I'd rather have Invuln level easier let me answer this question. Assuming you want to be efficient about it and get your IOs at maximum level?
You should be good to go against anything low level sporting S/L early. There is no reason you shouldn't be fine at 40-50% resistance to S/L in the late 20s and 30s. That leaves a lot of groups where you should be good to go; there's a lot of S/L in the Striga arcs and the Croatoa arc since the worst Croa stuff are Red Caps.
You'll get your butt whooping my the Striga Vampire pod mission but all my melee types do. The witches and ghosts might be a little rough.
At level 32 you can get your Kinetic Combat as they max out at 35. This will really bump your S/L defense; in this level range if the ene,ies do S/L you should be good to go.
At level 37 you can get those Reactive Armors. This will finish your S/L and really bump up your N/E. By now you should be well slotted (frankenslotted) and basically you are only waiting to finish up the Fighting pool and reaching 47 for Aegis and other miscellanous slotting.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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My dm/invuln brute is tough enough where against anything short of multiple AVs I don't really have to worry about dying. I doubt willpower can say the same.
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Think again. We have a reliable report of a Willpower scrapper going AFK in the middle of a Rikti War Zone challenge spawn.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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The biggest buff was finally losing the defense penalty from Unyielding. A 5% penalty would drop end game builds from ~40% defense to ~35% defense with 5 minions be the difference in capping. This change was the biggest buff. The way the game currently works and the way builds flirt with the soft cap adding 5% effective defense is a huge buff.
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On Scrappers/Brutes, the debuff was 3.75%, not 5%. (It was originally 5%, but it was changed.) Still, that was a nice boost. The way Castle made the changes Invuln lost a bit of top end def, but gained more up front. This made Invuln's def base more stable, which I agree was a good thing.
I think you're both downplaying the def resistance Invuln gets, though. It's remarkably strong at 50%. Consider that Stone (out of Granite as a Tank) and Ice Armor only get 51.9% def resistance, or Stone (out of Granite as a Brute) only gets 41.52% and EA only gets 51.9% def resistance. Those sets have less mitigation backing than Invuln does, and its def resistance is competitive with them.
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My dm/invuln brute is tough enough where against anything short of multiple AVs I don't really have to worry about dying. I doubt willpower can say the same.
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Think again. We have a reliable report of a Willpower scrapper going AFK in the middle of a Rikti War Zone challenge spawn.
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My DM/Invul is AFK right now in the middle of said spawn while I type this message. I have Siphon Life on auto though. Took a while to find one with three soldiers. Hey, if a willpower gets to go AFK when their defense resistance isn't being tested, I don't have to go AFK with my lack of psy resists being tested.
And to Ryu: That Will in your sig. Is that your only one? You can't base your knowledge on how "teh awesome" willpower is when you pair it with Katana. By the same vein, my DM/invul is insane, regularly tanking for ITF's, but that doesn't make me an expert on how Invul performs by itself.
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My DM/Invul is AFK right now in the middle of said spawn while I type this message.
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Now I want to get my MA/WP to 50 so I can try to get an AFK RWZ win by leaving Dragon's Tail on auto.
Infatum on Virtueverse
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My dm/invuln brute is tough enough where against anything short of multiple AVs I don't really have to worry about dying. I doubt willpower can say the same.
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Think again. We have a reliable report of a Willpower scrapper going AFK in the middle of a Rikti War Zone challenge spawn.
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My DM/Invul is AFK right now in the middle of said spawn while I type this message. I have Siphon Life on auto though. Took a while to find one with three soldiers. Hey, if a willpower gets to go AFK when their defense resistance isn't being tested, I don't have to go AFK with my lack of psy resists being tested.
And to Ryu: That Will in your sig. Is that your only one? You can't base your knowledge on how "teh awesome" willpower is when you pair it with Katana. By the same vein, my DM/invul is insane, regularly tanking for ITF's, but that doesn't make me an expert on how Invul performs by itself.
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Wait when their defense debuff resistance isn't being tested? I think if you went afk in a mob with a ton of defense debuffs, both the WP and the Invuln wouldn't do very well :-p It only takes a few to get the cascade rolling.
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
What I meant, the RWZ challenge has no defense debuffs, so one of willpowers bigger holes (in my opinion) isn't being tested.
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My dm/invuln brute is tough enough where against anything short of multiple AVs I don't really have to worry about dying. I doubt willpower can say the same.
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Think again. We have a reliable report of a Willpower scrapper going AFK in the middle of a Rikti War Zone challenge spawn.
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My DM/Invul is AFK right now in the middle of said spawn while I type this message. I have Siphon Life on auto though. Took a while to find one with three soldiers. Hey, if a willpower gets to go AFK when their defense resistance isn't being tested, I don't have to go AFK with my lack of psy resists being tested.
And to Ryu: That Will in your sig. Is that your only one? You can't base your knowledge on how "teh awesome" willpower is when you pair it with Katana. By the same vein, my DM/invul is insane, regularly tanking for ITF's, but that doesn't make me an expert on how Invul performs by itself.
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Wait when their defense debuff resistance isn't being tested? I think if you went afk in a mob with a ton of defense debuffs, both the WP and the Invuln wouldn't do very well :-p It only takes a few to get the cascade rolling.
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unless the resistances+regen in willpower are enough to keep the incoming dmg at bay.
i try to not build my wp scrappers/brutes/tankers for smash/lethal defense. just the exotics. outside of arachnoids poison claw none of the exotic dmg types debuff defense that i'm aware of - not counting pain in the butt circle of thorn earth caster thingies.
and one cant ignore the fact that as a tier 9 power, SoW > unstoppable
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i try to not build my wp scrappers/brutes/tankers for smash/lethal defense. just the exotics. outside of arachnoids poison claw none of the exotic dmg types debuff defense that i'm aware of - not counting pain in the butt circle of thorn earth caster thingies.
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Another (admittedly uncommon) defense debuff comes from Radiation; like Anti-matter's robots.
Also, you can't entirely dismiss defense debuff from S/L because if they cascade in a mixed group then the F/C/E/N types with them will begin to really hurt. You see this sometimes against Vanguard.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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Even still if I took the same approach you did I would be just as unkillable with WP if not more unkillable
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All I can say is prove it.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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i try to not build my wp scrappers/brutes/tankers for smash/lethal defense. just the exotics. outside of arachnoids poison claw none of the exotic dmg types debuff defense that i'm aware of - not counting pain in the butt circle of thorn earth caster thingies.
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Rad Blast has (very strong) defense debuffs. Thankfully, it's rarely used. (Vahzilok bosses, Shivans, Anti-Matter clockwork, Anti-Matter, Positron, Positron Automation is all I can think of.) CoT Earth Casters are actually smashing, the catch is their autohit Quicksand...
By the way, having lower s/l def is a liability to WP's exotic mitigation. Sure, there isn't many exotic def debuffs, but if you're fighting a mixed group (such as Arachnos), those s/l def debuffs can be exceptionally painful.
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i try to not build my wp scrappers/brutes/tankers for smash/lethal defense. just the exotics. outside of arachnoids poison claw none of the exotic dmg types debuff defense that i'm aware of - not counting pain in the butt circle of thorn earth caster thingies.
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Another (admittedly uncommon) defense debuff comes from Radiation; like Anti-matter's robots.
Also, you can't entirely dismiss defense debuff from S/L because if they cascade in a mixed group then the F/C/E/N types with them will begin to really hurt. You see this sometimes against Vanguard.
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prob depends on your side. redside one fights more arachnoids in the three arcs we get 40+ than any rad powers outside of fighting positron 3 times 1-50
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i try to not build my wp scrappers/brutes/tankers for smash/lethal defense. just the exotics. outside of arachnoids poison claw none of the exotic dmg types debuff defense that i'm aware of - not counting pain in the butt circle of thorn earth caster thingies.
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Rad Blast has (very strong) defense debuffs. Thankfully, it's rarely used. (Vahzilok bosses, Shivans, Anti-Matter clockwork, Anti-Matter, Positron, Positron Automation is all I can think of.) CoT Earth Casters are actually smashing, the catch is their autohit Quicksand...
By the way, having lower s/l def is a liability to WP's exotic mitigation. Sure, there isn't many exotic def debuffs, but if you're fighting a mixed group (such as Arachnos), those s/l def debuffs can be exceptionally painful.
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this is true if on a team, which is why when i team i make sure ih ave a sonic or thermal - or both - corruptors. i'm always amazed at how common both are red side. pretty easy to be running around with 80% resist to smash/lethal as a wp brute with just one, capped if in range of the sonic pbaoe bubble and capped if both and no bubble.
but redside, longbow are a far bigger threat in 8 mans than anyhthing arachnos has since arachnos has no autohit -40% resistance aoe's that stack from multiple sources and -800% regen grenades.
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and one cant ignore the fact that as a tier 9 power, SoW > unstoppable
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if it were a fact, I wouldn't ignore it. Too bad it's not.
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this is true if on a team, which is why when i team i make sure ih ave a sonic or thermal - or both - corruptors. i'm always amazed at how common both are red side. pretty easy to be running around with 80% resist to smash/lethal as a wp brute with just one, capped if in range of the sonic pbaoe bubble and capped if both and no bubble.
but redside, longbow are a far bigger threat in 8 mans than anyhthing arachnos has since arachnos has no autohit -40% resistance aoe's that stack from multiple sources and -800% regen grenades.
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While on a team, they can cover everything to the point you don't even need toggles. :P If you want to use that argument, then I could easily come back and say that those dreaded -40%/-30% res grenades that you keep mentioning are fully resistible. At 80% res, they'd only drop you 8% / 6% res each.
Still, I'm not sure why you mention s/l res when the problem with s/l def debuffs isn't necessarily increased s/l damage, rather the increased damage taken by exotics.
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this is true if on a team, which is why when i team i make sure ih ave a sonic or thermal - or both - corruptors. i'm always amazed at how common both are red side. pretty easy to be running around with 80% resist to smash/lethal as a wp brute with just one, capped if in range of the sonic pbaoe bubble and capped if both and no bubble.
but redside, longbow are a far bigger threat in 8 mans than anyhthing arachnos has since arachnos has no autohit -40% resistance aoe's that stack from multiple sources and -800% regen grenades.
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While on a team, they can cover everything to the point you don't even need toggles. :P If you want to use that argument, then I could easily come back and say that those dreaded -40%/-30% res grenades that you keep mentioning are fully resistible. At 80% res, they'd only drop you 8% / 6% res each.
Still, I'm not sure why you mention s/l res when the problem with s/l def debuffs isn't necessarily increased s/l damage, rather the increased damage taken by exotics.
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er...those grenades still drop you 40% resist to all and are auto hit. if there's two, you'd need 150%+ resists to all to actually counter them or you'll need room - and the threat - to move the spawn out of range
it's not 40% OF your resistances, it's a flat number. if you have 50% resistances and are in a grenade you now have 10%
[QR]
Invulnerability requires you to pay attention and play well. WP doesn't. The kind of people who tell you WP is glorious and invuln is bad are the kind of people who don't recognise the gap their skill is making. Since this is a thread full of broad, ridiculous assertations without evidence, I figure there's mine.
Oh, and here's my anecdotal evidence: Without any buffs but accelerate metabolism, I've seen a invuln scrapper tank the Psychic Clockwork king on a team of 3. And the funny thing is, she didn't die, and the clockwork king did. So clearly, invulnerability has no psi problems.
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er...those grenades still drop you 40% resist to all and are auto hit. if there's two, you'd need 150%+ resists to all to actually counter them or you'll need room - and the threat - to move the spawn out of range
it's not 40% OF your resistances, it's a flat number. if you have 50% resistances and are in a grenade you now have 10%
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It used to be that way because they were unresistible, but that that was changed. They're no longer straight subtraction. Also note that it's -40% to s/l, but -30% to everything else. (The numbers are 11% higher because it's a +1.)
Ok having read this thread and having both a DB/WP and a BS/INV scrapper and finding them both playable with trade offs here and there and having both experience moments of "OMG I RULE" surviveability with SO's and conversely "Oh sh_t this is gonna hurt, OUCH, OUCH, OUCH, MEDIC! MAN DOWN! MAN DOWN!" moments I can say, with hand on heart I like em both.
Now for invuln, I've read through Call me Awesome's guide on invuln and the def soft cap so I have a gameplan for that, But I'm a little bit unsure of what the game plan needs to be for my DB/WP.
What should I be working towards? more def? more regen? higher hp?
I'd love a some pointers on here are your holes and heres what to plug em with, or here are your strengths heres how best to leverage them.
Feel The Burn
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Willpower, however, is very boring to me since it means zero interaction. Then again, to each his own.
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Why does that matter? In my opinion, not having to click anything on WP (other than SoW) is a great thing.
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Willpower, however, is very boring to me since it means zero interaction. Then again, to each his own.
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Why does that matter? In my opinion, not having to click anything on WP (other than SoW) is a great thing.
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I make up for it by taking a primary (or secondary, if I'm on a tanker) that demands attention, like Dual Blades.
Too many alts to list.
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Willpower, however, is very boring to me since it means zero interaction. Then again, to each his own.
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Why does that matter? In my opinion, not having to click anything on WP (other than SoW) is a great thing.
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Some of us like a more interactive secondary. What do you mean why does it matter? It's just what we like. No accounting for taste.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Well I have both a Willpower and Invul at level 50 both with over a Billion invested. My Invul is tougher 90 percent of the time. Both have Capped Def but my resists are over all better on my Invul, considerably high Hp. The Regen on my Wp is better but he needs it because he takes more damage. And if you have to tank Agro is WAY better on my invul. My Wp cant even compare there.
Willpower is better as a stand-alone set but combine invuln with dark melee and it is really, really, hard to kill simply because you are at or near the softcap most of the time and have nice resists especially to sm/l. Combine that with a self heal that is roughly equivalent to reconstruction (the way I have it slotted) and you are srsly difficult to kill. My dm/invuln brute is tough enough where against anything short of multiple AVs I don't really have to worry about dying. I doubt willpower can say the same.