Storm/Dark is a very control-heavy combination, as is Dark/Ice. One has stacked area stuns, the other multiple single-target holds; both kinds of control stack very well. And of course these sets have lots of other goodies. I don't think these powersets mix and match as well (Dark/Dark or Storm/Ice); they are still great combinations, but Thunder Clap and Dark Pit just don't pay off as well without each other.
I team with the Repeat Offenders.
I agree with IronYeti. I'd say clearly the most control-heavy primaries would be Storm and Dark, though in very different ways.
Dark commands very strong -tohit, good -dmg, good -res, good -regen in two powers, fear, and the best and most useful rez in the game. I'd agree that Dark probably pairs better with Ice or with Sonic than with Dark, but Dark/Dark is a strong combo too.
For pairing with a Fire/Fire Blaster I'd probably choose either Dark/Ice or Dark/Dark because both give you methods of containing enemies within your Tar Patches for him to annihilate. I'd lean towards Dark/Dark for TT, but the slows in Ice combined with the slow in Tar Patch should do the job too.
Storm commands great slows, good -tohit, great -res, actually does damage, and offers the power (and potential danger) of controlled chaos in the KB. I'd pair Storm with Sonic, Psy or Dark. For pairing with Fire Blaster I'd lean towards Dark Blast or Psy Blast to get stacked disorients and extra control tools.
Overall, both offer a good stealth/resistance toggle buff. Storm has a targeted heal, while Dark can rez. As a duo, I'd take the Dark for the -regen and the rez over the Storm, but either would make a great choice.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
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I agree with IronYeti. I'd say clearly the most control-heavy primaries would be Storm and Dark, though in very different ways.
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TA has as much control as both Storm and Dark combined, so I can't imagine how either of them could be "the most control-heavy". Unless you meant, "the most control-heavy if you're completely wasted on crack".
That depends heavily on what you call "control"... but I agree that TA is another option at least on par with Storm and Dark for the OP's consideration. I did not mention it myself because I have never taken a TA far enough to "get" the set; I am more confident that I know how Storm and Dark really work.
I team with the Repeat Offenders.
D3s are usually considered the controllers of defenderdom, I believe they've got access to the most diverse number of controls
Stun
Hold
Immobilize
Fear
Intangibility
Slow
Knockback
-recharge
then there's the not so controlly, but still sort of
-dam
-tohit
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
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Slow
Knockback
-recharge
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Are not controls.
I think a case can be made that KB at the very least is a form of 'soft' control. Slow, less so, and -recharge is something of a stretch.
As for TA being control-heavy, while it's certainly debuff-heavy it doesn't have all that many status effects. If we're not considering slows or -recharge then Glue Arrow's out, which leaves a single-target hold (Ice Arrow) and nuke-style AOE hold/-regen debuff (EMP Arrow). OSA, being knockdown, presumably doesn't count as control either if knockback doesn't. That leaves Flash Arrow (which I'm not sure should count) and Entangling Arrow (single-target immobilize). Three, maybe four powers by the "no KB, no slows" definition.
So, both sets get a single-target hold. TA adds a -perception debuff that could be viewed as control, a single-target immobilize, and a nuke-style hold. Add in Glue Arrow for slow and OSA for knockdown too.
Compare that to Dark, which on top of the single-target hold also gets a slow comparable to Glue Arrow in Tar Patch, gets an autohit stun in Howling Twilight that also happens to debuff regeneration and rez, a cone fear in Fearsome Stare, an AOE intangible and a pet who may (if he feels like it) use a single-target hold as well. That's four, maybe five control powers.
Even if you write off Black Hole as useless and dismiss the Dark Servant as unreliable, bringing it down to three, and give TA Flash Arrow to give it four powers, that's still an immobilize, a -perception, an ST hold and a nuke AOE hold vs a cone fear, an autohit cone stun and an ST hold. Canceling out Petrifying Gaze and Ice Arrow, I'd still say Fearsome Stare + Howling Twilight > Entangling Arrow + Flash Arrow + EMP Arrow for control.
So while I loves me some TA, I don't think it's as control-heavy as Dark or Storm. Dark especially feels to me to have more control than is offered by TA. I feel that's a reasonable statement.
Now, if you want to talk which has more varied and useful debuffs, that's a horse of a different color... TA's a clear winner there by a mile as the only things Dark can do better are -tohit and -regen. If TA had -regen outside of EMP, Dark wouldn't even have that much.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
Storm has -def with freezing rain, and good damage a bit later in the game so it is very nice. Dark has a nice fear if you want holding like powers, it truly is like a controller.
D3.
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I think a case can be made that KB at the very least is a form of 'soft' control.
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If Castle tells me that he considers KB/KU a control, then I'll call it a control.
Until then, it's not a control, regardless of how players want to refer to it.
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Slow, less so, and -recharge is something of a stretch.
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-Speed and -Recharge are debuffs. The developers are on record stating that they're debuffs. They're debuffs. Period.
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As for TA being control-heavy, while it's certainly debuff-heavy it doesn't have all that many status effects. If we're not considering slows or -recharge then Glue Arrow's out, which leaves a single-target hold (Ice Arrow) and nuke-style AOE hold/-regen debuff (EMP Arrow). OSA, being knockdown, presumably doesn't count as control either if knockback doesn't. That leaves Flash Arrow (which I'm not sure should count) and Entangling Arrow (single-target immobilize). Three, maybe four powers by the "no KB, no slows" definition.
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Entangling Arrow - Immobilize
Ice Arrow - Hold
Poison Gas Arrow - Sleep
EMP Arrow - Hold
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So, both sets get a single-target hold. TA adds a -perception debuff that could be viewed as control,
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Stop. Just stop. If I facepalm any harder, I'm going to break my nose.
Debuffs are not controls.
You don't know what TA does, you won't differentiate between debuffs and controls, I'm not going to address the rest of what you tried to say because it's all based on incorrect data.
Read a guide or something. I'm sure there's a halfway decent one somewhere around here.
Wow, way to be a giant agressive jerk for no reason.
If you can't control the flow of a spawn with knockback/knockdown and slows, don't take it out on the rest of us with dumb semantics games.
Wow is most certainly the word.
I never expected to get flamed for that particular post. Ouch. Thought I'd get to have a stimulating discussion and instead it's turned nasty for no reason I can see. I'll grant that I didn't list Poison Gas's sleep effect, mostly because thinking of it as a sleep power rather than a -DMG debuff isn't something I usually do on my TAs. Based on the recommendations in your guide, I'd hazard a guess that those priorities hold true for you as well, though it seems you value the Sleep component higher than I did. Not mention that the level of utility the sleep component is likely to have for the OP, teamed with a Fire/Fire Blaster, seems like it might be rather low. That mea culpa aside, the other three powers you listed were addressed, correctly as far as I can see, in the post you replied to. I don't see that this oversight merited the level of bile I got in reply. Kind of depressing really.
I'm going to assume someone just had a bad day and is lashing out and not take this personally. Luminara wrote a heck of a good guide on TA and frankly this thread is rather disappointing. I don't need condescension. Obviously I know that debuffs are not controls, though debuffs and KB/KD powers (particularly with KB/KD) you get a similar result in a MOB that's effectively locked down and either unable to act or unable to pose a significant threat.
Based on the statement "TA has as much control than Dark and Storm put together", it seemed perhaps that's what was meant since otherwise the statement would appear to be wrong or at least hyperbole. Dark (4) + Storm (1, by this definition, since much of the mitigation here is either debuff based or KB based) = 5. So the only way TA has as much as Dark and Storm put together is if you toss out Black Hole or if you're counting powers as 'control' beyond just various kinds of mezzes. Based on Luminara's reply to me, it's glaringly obvious that isn't the case, so I suppose we're tossing out Black Hole.
However, if we're arguing on strict definitions here rather than practical utility, I don't see how you can do that. The fact is that Dark has four control powers, Storm has one, TA has four. If we are giving powers weight by utility and thus throwing out Black Hole, then I don't see how TA's four powers beat Dark's remaining three. You're talking about an autohit cone stun, a cone fear and an ST hold stacked against an ST immobilize, an ST hold, an AOE sleep (66% chance, anyway) and an AOE hold that's got a -1000% recovery self-debuff. I'd say the autohit nature of Howling Twilight alone puts Dark in the lead there.
Of course, all this came about just trying to address the assertion that TA was far and away a better choice than Dark or Storm. It's certainly not a bad choice for control for a Defender as should now be abundantly obvious, but neither is it the clearly superior alternative.
But apparently I'm completely clueless, so perhaps there's something wrong there I'm not seeing. If so, I sincerely hope that someone will enlighten me. And I don't mean that sarcastically - if I'm wrong, show me I'm wrong. Preferably without implying that I'm a complete buffoon, if possible.
Bottom line for the OP: Dark, Storm or TA primaries would provide good control for a Defender. The extent to which one is better than the other is probably largely irrelevant in the end anyway as you're going to have other factors in the primary and from your secondary in the mix as well as far as mitigation goes. By this standard alone you'd think Storm was near the bottom with only one true control power, which in actual practice is not the case and Storm actually offers strong mitigation in other ways.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
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-Speed and -Recharge are debuffs. The developers are on record stating that they're debuffs. They're debuffs. Period.
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If Castle tells me that he considers KB/KU a control, then I'll call it a control.
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Interesting then that -Recharge, -Speed, and Knockdown are half the bulk an Ice Controller brings to the table.
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-Speed and -Recharge are debuffs. The developers are on record stating that they're debuffs. They're debuffs. Period.
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If Castle tells me that he considers KB/KU a control, then I'll call it a control.
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Interesting then that -Recharge, -Speed, and Knockdown are half the bulk an Ice Controller brings to the table.
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Erm. I guess Mitigation =/= Control? I'm not sure of the reasoning behind not considering Knockback/up a control, other than "Castle hasn't said so." I'm sure there are other things that Castle hasn't stated that we accept as fact, though. Needless to say, I consider Knockback/up a "soft" control and have for quite some time.
As for Slow and -Recharge, I can see a case being made for either side of the argument. Personally, I just see it as a form of mitigating debuffs, similar to -ToHit and -Damage.
Of course, my opinion doesn't really count for much...
<QR> IMO Dark has the control edge by a wide margin, largely due to Fearsome Stare. My Storm defender can reduce a spawn to quivering jello, but I'm not sure it qualifies as "control" if -speed/-recharge and KB/KD are taken out of the definition.
TA's controls just don't rise to the same level. A ST immobilize, ST hold, 66% chance of a mag 2 sleep and an AOE hold on a 5 minute timer do not a control set make. Its a fine debuff set, but I'm not convinced that its better than Dark or Storm there.
For your circumstance I'd suggest Dark/Dark. The immobilize, fear and tar patch should do nicely to keep your foes bunched up for your partner's AoEs. Stack a little def from sets with all the -tohit and you should be very well protected from what attacks do get through, with a heal and eventually a pet in your back pocket if you need them.
Trick Arrow would also work pretty well, Fire + Oil Slick is a very fun thing, but you're also going to be a bit more vulnerable, in my opinion.
Thank you all for your thoughts and opinions!
I'm going with a Dark/ Ice, which I think should work very well. Again, thank you all!
Hey, I was just gonna say Dark/Ice too!
For the TA crowd, I'm all about */TA for uber controllers, but for Defenders, I'm about tied w/TA & Dark. Why? Dark has Fearsome Stare! That's about all you need to control stuff for most fights (unless you're up against fear-resistant mobs, but then you have your holds and debuffs). It's a huge cone, fast recharging and really kinda broken. 
Oh, Pet Gaze activates faster than Ice Arrow and is easier to stack with, oh, let's see, Freeze Ray.
Which brings me to my 2nd point, Dark/Ice, not a D3, because you can stack holds for bosses. Yes, Fluffy will allow you to do this also, but not reliably. Pet Gaze + Freeze Ray = insta-held boss. Also, Tar Patch + Ice Storm (+Blizzard) = win.
Dark/Ice gives you an awesome fear, much ST holding and a ton of slows. D3 would give you an AoE immob, but w/the fear, I'm not so sure you need it. Yes, you get more stacked debuffs w/a D3, but we're talking about just control here, and besides, I think you get plenty of -to hit from just the Dark primary. TA/* gives you slows, KDs and a really slow AoE hold, but again, for pure control, I don't think it compares.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Wow, way to be a giant agressive jerk for no reason.
If you can't control the flow of a spawn with knockback/knockdown and slows, don't take it out on the rest of us with dumb semantics games.
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Agreed. I'm actually really surprised at Luminara's outlash here. After reading the guide written by this member, I wouldn't expect this level of immaturity.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
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That leaves Flash Arrow (which I'm not sure should count) and Entangling Arrow (single-target immobilize).
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Flash Arrow? While I can see the -speed in Glue Arrow as having some control like applications(Keeping groups bunched.) I can't see how Flash Arrow can possibly be thought of as a control. It doesn't hold or immobilize. It doesn't even slow. Its debuff with no control or even control like abilities.
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I guess Mitigation =/= Control?
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I believe that is correct. Better to say not all controls mitigate damage. An immobilize for instance does not in and of itself mitigate damage unless the power has some other effect such as -recharge.
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That leaves Flash Arrow (which I'm not sure should count) and Entangling Arrow (single-target immobilize).
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Flash Arrow? While I can see the -speed in Glue Arrow as having some control like applications(Keeping groups bunched.) I can't see how Flash Arrow can possibly be thought of as a control. It doesn't hold or immobilize. It doesn't even slow. Its debuff with no control or even control like abilities.
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Which was why I said I wasn't sure it should count - I was just trying to figure out where Luminara was coming from and, as the flames upthread amply demonstrate, boy did I ever guess wrong.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
[ QUOTE ]
-Speed and -Recharge are debuffs. The developers are on record stating that they're debuffs. They're debuffs. Period.
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Just to clear up some confusion, the Devs have never said that -speed and -recharge are debuffs.
In fact, Castle stated the exact opposite, I believe when he reviewed the original Defenders Issues List. This was back when the Defender Slow modifiers were -1.00 and the Controller modifiers were -1.25. Someone mentioned that they should be better for Defenders and he stated that -Speed and -Recharge were controls and would therefore be better for Controllers, but that he would review it.
Then, later, it was stated that their modifiers were reversed, but instead of weakening Controllers, they buffed Defender Slows to Controller levels.
But none of them have ever said "These are debuffs" and so the only thing we can assume is that they decided that they're either not controls or not just controls. I would just call it "mitigation" as it seems to exist outside traditional controls or debuffs, like Knockback.
After all, modifiers don't tell the whole story. For example, Defenders, Controllers and Tankers share the same value for the modifiers that determine how powerful self +resistance and +defense buffs are. You could say that Defenders and Controllers have that modifier because they're buffing ATs, but that doesn't make the Tanker a buffing AT. You could also argue that Tankers have that value because they're supposed to hold aggro and soak up damage, but that doesn't make Defenders and Controllers the meatshield ATs.
Edit: Reworded some stuff!
Edit 2: Found Castle's post waaay back in the depths of the Defender boards, and he does not actually state that Slows are Controls, just that they work better for Controllers, but he'd be reviewing it.
So, while I was wrong on that part, I still stand by my point that that doesn't necessarily mean that they are considered debuffs. Just that the devs decided that they shouldn't just be considered controls.
Just a nit, to pick, Shield Tankers with grant cover ARE team buffers.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
I know this has been asked in months/ years past...but nothing seems to stay on the boards past a couple months, so I'm just wondering - what Defender do you think gives the best control?
My friend and I are rerolling for hopefully the last time for a while, and he'll be fire/ fire blaster. I Figure, I set them up, he knocks them down. Is there a Defender that's really good at that? I've done Dark/ Ice before, and that seemed pretty good in that regard. I'm thinking Storm would be pretty good too.
Any thoughts/ opinions are welcome! Thanks much!