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-Speed and -Recharge are debuffs. The developers are on record stating that they're debuffs. They're debuffs. Period.
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Just to clear up some confusion, the Devs have never said that -speed and -recharge are debuffs.
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Yes, a developer did say that Slows are debuffs. The post is gone, as far as I can tell (it was when they announced that controller and defender modifiers for Slows had been swapped since release, and that they were going to increase the defender mod but leave controllers untouched), but it absolutely was said. To the best of my recollection, it was Castle who said Slows are debuffs. Might've been Geko, but my memory has Castle's name on the post.
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In fact, Castle stated the exact opposite, I believe when he reviewed the original Defenders Issues List. This was back when the Defender Slow modifiers were -1.00 and the Controller modifiers were -1.25. Someone mentioned that they should be better for Defenders and he stated that -Speed and -Recharge were controls and would therefore be better for Controllers, but that he would review it.
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Castle never stated that Slows were controls in that thread. It's still available for review, you can read it for yourself. He said the modifier for Slows was higher for controllers and that he'd ask Geko to review it. He never said it was a control.
Later, when it was announced that controllers weren't supposed to have the 1.25 modifier for Slows, it was in that thread that a developer said that Slows are debuffs.
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Edit 2: Found Castle's post waaay back in the depths of the Defender boards, and he does not actually state that Slows are Controls, just that they work better for Controllers, but he'd be reviewing it.
So, while I was wrong on that part, I still stand by my point that that doesn't necessarily mean that they are considered debuffs. Just that the devs decided that they shouldn't just be considered controls.
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It's a debuff. Castle will tell you that if you ask him.
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I'm going to assume someone just had a bad day
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Week. I've been in pain for a week, to the point of crawling around on the floor at work, clutching my chest and side. I wasn't expecting to still be experiencing pain like this almost four months after the surgery, and it's put me in a foul mood.
That doesn't excuse my behavior, nor do I expect it to be excused, but I did feel that you deserved an explanation.
And an apology. I am truly sorry that I went off on you like that. I should've closed the browser window and gone to bed, or outside, or taken more Tylenol, or anything other than blowing up at you. I let my judgment lapse and my frustration take over. I'm sorry.
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Apology accepted, consider it forgotten. I'm sorry to hear you've been in pain, and relieved to discover that my original impression of you is correct after all. Get well soon!
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
aww, wish I hadn't read that apology. It was really good too. I'm all sauced up and raring for some sarcasm slingins.
Poop. Your humility is ill timed.
Now I gotta go find another thread where people are screaming about SS nerfs that haven't been announced anywhere or people who are crying about the Dom buffs.
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Later, when it was announced that controllers weren't supposed to have the 1.25 modifier for Slows, it was in that thread that a developer said that Slows are debuffs.
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I don't remember there ever being a thread about it. We found out through a patch note. The only place I recall seeing it discussed was in the Official Trick Arrows Changes thread at the time, and despite posts from Castle in that thread (which still exists), he never commented on it.
I'm not disagreeing with you that it's officially written somewhere in the CoH bible that Slows are debuffs, I'm just saying I don't recall it ever being stated somewhere for everyone to see.
Personally, I just consider Slows and Knockback/Knock Up to exist outside traditional labels like "control" or "debuff".
And honestly, it's not that much of a stretch to think that Slows might be associated with controls.
I mean, think about it...
Slows were originally called "Snares," and still are in some places, which just sounds like a control.
They're the most associated with Ice sets in the game, which themselves are considered the most control-heavy sets.
And then there's the crafting badges: Blinding, Beguiler, Charming, Charismatic, & Mesmerizer. Which are earned by crafting Sleep, Hold, Disorient, Immobilize, Fear, and Slow Inventions.
Just for clarity, my point here is not that Slows aren't debuffs, just that it's easy to assume that they might be considered controls, even if they're officially not.
Could be mistaken, but I seem to recall that it was Immobilizes, not Slows, that were once known as Snares... for some reason I have that in my brain. Are you sure it was slows?
I agree with the rest. It seems an especially fuzzy line because of the close association of -movement and -recharge effects in Slows.
While these could both be labeled debuffs, a sufficient amount of the former results in what could reasonably be termed a control effect as a boss that takes ten minutes to reach you standing across the room is unlikely to land many blows and should be child's play to kite around. While it's not officially control, I can see how the matter could reasonably come up in such a discussion.
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
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I Figure, I set them up, he knocks them down. Is there a Defender that's really good at that? I've done Dark/ Ice before, and that seemed pretty good in that regard. I'm thinking Storm would be pretty good too.
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When I think "controllery" it translates to me as a general sort of "render them harmless to be killed at your leisure." Nothing lays a safety blanket over a team like Dark. You can render the first spawn harmless, handle the accidental agro and still have stuff left in your bag of tricks to negate the unexpected ambush that showed up on top of that. With a side of heals, rez and -res to speed things along and clean up any droppings along the way. For my money that's as controllery as it gets from defender primaries.
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Slow
Knockback
-recharge
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Are not controls.
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Slows are controls. Back in the day, controllers got higher -slow numbers than defenders did, because the devs classibfied it as control. Now defenders and controllers get even numebrs.
-kb can be a control. It is mob placement, thus controlling where they are.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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Slow
Knockback
-recharge
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Are not controls.
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Slows are controls.
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No, they aren't.
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Back in the day, controllers got higher -slow numbers than defenders did, because the devs classibfied it as control. Now defenders and controllers get even numebrs.
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The only part of that paragraph which was correct was the last sentence.
The Ranged Slow modifier had been unintentionally swapped for defenders and controllers. Defenders were supposed to have the 1.25 modifier, controllers were supposed to have the 1.0 modifier. That had been stated by the developers. Controllers had the defender mod, defenders had the controller mod.
And controllers weren't permitted to keep the 1.25 mod because the developers classify Slow as a control, they were allowed to remain at 1.25 because the developers didn't think it was a significant enough difference to warrant changing it to 1.0, partially because Slow doesn't grant any "real" protection and partially because they expected a tar and feathering party if they did change it.
Slow is a debuff. If you have any doubt, you know how to PM Castle and ask for verification.
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-kb can be a control. It is mob placement, thus controlling where they are.
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I can "control" critters by defeating them, but that doesn't make damage a control.
You can use Teleport Foe to "control" where a critter is placed, but that doesn't make TP Foe a control.
One could also refer to knocking a critter back/up as "debuffing its vertical status", but that'd be just as silly as what you just tried to argue.
Immobilize, Sleep, Stun, Hold, Fear and Intangibility. Those are the control effects in this game.
The only reasonable argument for KB/KU being a control is the fact that it's expressed as a magnitude (all controls use magnitude, whereas all debuffs use percentages), but that's not necessarily proof that it's a control, only that it shares a similar measurement with control. So unless you have a developer statement saying that KB/KU is control, it isn't.
Slows can still be practically applied as a soft control. Fearsome Stare is nice, but Fearsome Stare + Tar Patch is something special.
But no, I'd have to say that Dark Miasma wins in the defender control department. Fearsome Stare is far and away the best control power Defenders can get their hands on, rivaling controller powers for effectiveness. Mix with Tar Patch to stifle movement and sprinkle on Howling Twilight to taste, and there's no reason you can't keep your foes in a constant pit of misery.
It's incredibly effective, and you can do it pretty much every fight.
Petrifying Gaze, on the other hand, is around the worst control power Defenders can get their hands on. Taking a secondary with a single-target control power (Ice or Radiation, for example) really negates the need for it. I guess you could stack it with Ice's holds, but I've never really felt the need.
<3 Cosmic Burst
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The only part of that paragraph which was correct was the last sentence.
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I specifically remember the devs stating that slows counted as controls. It irritated the crap out of me at the time, since my main is a storm/elec, and i was basicalyl being told that controllers got bette modifiers for a large portion of my primary power set. I believe there was a considerable thread over it. Since then the devs have changes their stance, and both defenders and controllers get even numbers, therefore, it counts equally as a debuff and as a control.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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Immobilize, Sleep, Stun, Hold, Fear and Intangibility. Those are the control effects in this game.
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You aren't counting Confuse as a control? Or was that an oversight?
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server
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Immobilize, Sleep, Stun, Hold, Fear and Intangibility. Those are the control effects in this game.
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You aren't counting Confuse as a control? Or was that an oversight?
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And Confuse.
And bold tag fixed. >.<
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Could be mistaken, but I seem to recall that it was Immobilizes, not Slows, that were once known as Snares... for some reason I have that in my brain. Are you sure it was slows?
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You were mistaken. See, for example, http://eu.cityofheroes.com/en/game_g.../enhancements/ . Last time I looked, some of the invention recipes that enhance slow powers were call "snare". Admittedly, I haven't checked this recently, so it could have been changed a couple issues ago and I wouldn't have noticed.
Maybe this is a question of terminology. If we're interpreting the question as "which Defender sets play the most like a Controller set," Trick Arrow and Dark come out near the top, with Storm very close to the top.
The trouble is defining what a Control set looks like. Here's a rundown, for example, of what the Ice Control consists of:
- Chillblain -- single target immobilize
- Block of Ice -- single target hold
- Frostbite -- multi target immobilize
- Arctic Air -- aura of slow, -recharge, afraid, occasionally confusion
- Shiver -- cone of -recharge, slow
- Ice Slick -- knockdown zone
- Flash Freeze - multi target sleep
- Glacier -- multi target hold
- Jack Frost -- pet
In practice on a team, an Ice Controller is mostly going to be relying on slow, -recharge, and knockdown to survive. Shiver only provides -recharge and slow, with no other effects. Ice Slick provides only knockdown, with no other effects. Glacier is only available intermitently. The only major outlier power is Arctic Air, which brings afraid and confusion effects, but also a huge dose of slow and -recharge.
I think any discussion that leads us to say that Ice Control isn't a control set is kind of counterproductive. If slow, -recharge and knockdown aren't controls, then Ice Control isn't a control set. It just doesn't follow.
I think my TA/A plays like a controller, and that's what matters to me. I'm not exactly trying to help out my teammates directly (I don't even have to check the team window for green bars or buffs!), I'm just trying to render the baddies as harmless as possible. I've often found that when I'm playing my TA/A, I'm thinking "Man, how is this a Defender and not a Controller?"
That's my main difference. Forget all the "What, pray tell, IS a control?" shenanigans, I say TA PLAYS like a controller, and that's enough for me.
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Ice Slick provides only knockdown, with no other effects. Glacier is only available intermitently.
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This is incorrect. Ice Slick also slows targets. An example of an AoE knockdown without slow would be Liquify.
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But Liquefy does cause -Recharge speed!
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Among several other effects. My point being to make clear the contrast. Without the slow in ice slick the mobs would tend to run out of the slick area fairly quickly unless they had a reason to stay in it despite the high knockdown chance.
Users of Liquify tend to use themselves as the lure to keep the mobs in the AoE since most mobs tend to want to get into melee range.
Edit : To put it another way the slow is a necessary component to Ice Slick to make it as effective as it is.
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Edit : To put it another way the slow is a necessary component to Ice Slick to make it as effective as it is.
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Earthquake is quite effective w/o QS on top of it. Better still with, of course, but Ice Slick doesn't *need* the slow component. It's just, er, icing.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Edit : To put it another way the slow is a necessary component to Ice Slick to make it as effective as it is.
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Earthquake is quite effective w/o QS on top of it. Better still with, of course, but Ice Slick doesn't *need* the slow component. It's just, er, icing.
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How many times have you used Earthquake without throwing Quicksand on top of it? Be honest now.
Very often, actually. Of course, I throw Oil Slick Arrow on top instead. 
Seriously though, I do find EQ a very good "oh sh**" power when QS & OSA & whatever have already been deployed. Just by itself, it does a pretty good job of keeping a crowd occupied. If I were using it as an opener, say around a corner, of course I throw QS on top.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
(QR)
Regarding what constitutes control vs. debuff, I tend to think of control as being mitigating non-incremental effects. To clarify: a critter is not 20% confused or 70% asleep; it either is or is not subject to the controlling effect at any given time. By this definition, slows and -recharge, although mitigating, are not controls; they apply incrementally. KD/KU is, however, a short-duration control effect by this standard, since the creature is either standing and able to act or not standing and therefore unable to act except to try to stand up; as your mama may have informed you, there's no such thing as a little bit knocked up.
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Could be mistaken, but I seem to recall that it was Immobilizes, not Slows, that were once known as Snares... for some reason I have that in my brain. Are you sure it was slows?
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You were mistaken. See, for example, http://eu.cityofheroes.com/en/game_g.../enhancements/ . Last time I looked, some of the invention recipes that enhance slow powers were call "snare". Admittedly, I haven't checked this recently, so it could have been changed a couple issues ago and I wouldn't have noticed.
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I think (and I'll admit this is off the top of my head, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that there are a couple reasons for the snare confusion.
A) First, it's inconsistent in it's use. The terms snare and slow seem to be interchangeable partly because...
B) Slow as a term tends to apply to two debuffs that while similar in theme are mechanically different. Snares reduce MOVEMENT speed while slows reduce RECHARGE speed. The two effects very often come packaged together (for obvious thematic reasons) making the distinction somewhat fuzzy. It's much easier to say a power slows it's target then to say it slows and snares, especially when they tend to slow both attributes by the same value. The two effects DO have different icons. Slow has rings around the ubber body (like how stun has a band around the upper body) in it's icon while snare has rings around the feet (like immobilize has a band there.)
An example of a slow power that is purely a snare would be quicksand, I can't think of any that are purely slows offhand. (By purely slow I mean it only has one of the two slow effects, quicksand does more then just snare :P)
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To clarify: a critter is not 20% confused or 70% asleep; it either is or is not subject to the controlling effect at any given time.
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What you are calling "controls" I'd be more apt to call "status effects." Immobilization is a status effect but IMO inferior to -Recharge or sustained Knockdown for reducing incoming damage (made apparant in the hierarchy of Ice Control powers). We could argue that Ice Control is generally more of a "debuff" power set than a "control" one, but again I think we risk overspecializing the definition. I don't think individual powers or powers sets can be definitively slotted into "control" and "not control" categories. I also think that any definition of "control" that leads us to conclude that Controller sets themselves are not control sets is impractical. About the best we can say is that some Defender sets resemble Controller sets quite closely and by virtue of that can be considered more "control" oriented.
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I'm going to assume someone just had a bad day
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Week. I've been in pain for a week, to the point of crawling around on the floor at work, clutching my chest and side. I wasn't expecting to still be experiencing pain like this almost four months after the surgery, and it's put me in a foul mood.
That doesn't excuse my behavior, nor do I expect it to be excused, but I did feel that you deserved an explanation.
And an apology. I am truly sorry that I went off on you like that. I should've closed the browser window and gone to bed, or outside, or taken more Tylenol, or anything other than blowing up at you. I let my judgment lapse and my frustration take over. I'm sorry.