*chuckle*
You just eliminated the toughest Tanker primary.
[ QUOTE ]
Are there any specific builds I should avoid? I assume Stone is out, since I dont want to be relying on a /kin. I have heard willpowers aoe taunt toggle isnt quite as good as the others. Is this true?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but it can be worked around. Taking a secondary that has a decent amount of AoEs helps to keep aggro through Gauntlet. Swapping targets frequently on other sets can work, too. Taunt, the power, is also a good tool in even the lower levels.
As for other Tanker sets:
Ice might be a good choice. Good defenses to everything except Fire and Psi (you can get a decent amount of Fire resistance, and Toxic is also a hole, but shows up rarely in-game). Energy Absorption and Hoarfrost will keep you alive and moving strongly later in the game.
Invuln might be another good choice. Depending on how many of your primary powers you want to take, you can get decent resistances to most damage types, and good Defense values to back it up.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
I assume Stone is out, since I dont want to be relying on a /kin.
[/ QUOTE ]
IMO, you assume wrongly. As a Stone player, I only use Granite situationally, like for tanking AVs or very large mobs. Still, it's not too hard to toggle between Stone Armoer and GA, and pop EE when need be. Granted, GA is better if you can take Hasten and Swift, and Stamina doesn't hurt either. But be no means is a Kin required for playing a Stone. It's even less so if you can get into some +Runspeed IO set bonuses, but that's a whole other angle.
yeah...WP's taunt is less than half as effective, I believe it taunts even con enemies for something like 1.25seconds, where the others are something like 8 seconds.
Secondaries? Go for something with Mitigation built in to help, maybe stone, ice, SS, mace maybe.
Not Fire, and probably not EM either, according to some posts by people with more EM experience than me, EM is horribly broken, unless paired with dark.
Ice may be a good selection for armor, I always found my ice tank self sufficient, though occassionally I'd get roughed up by bad rolls. Stone doesnt necessarily NEED a kinetic, you can teleport in to groups to minimize the need for SB. Firey Aura is probably a bit weak for leading TFs. SD, I know nothing about, it's my next role up. Dark is heal reliant and an end hog...but can be tough as nails once you get tough(the power) and dark does at least have some resistance to everything, but little defense.
The only 2 armors I'd definetively rule out are Fire and WP. But I just don't like WP, I don't feel like a tank with it, and I feel too weak to too many kinds of damage with Fire.
My 2 cents
Axe ain't a bad secondary either. It's END heavy, but if enemies don't have Knockdown protection, you can often chain Knockdown with many of the attacks. I've taken down Fake Nemeses before they pop PFF, because they couldn't stay on their feet long enough to do so.
Which is the best tanker often depends on who you have on your team. If you're lucky enough to have a Sonic or FF defender you team with regularly, any of them are going to be adequate.
Willpower is quite tough and is the most inviting to level, but some tanking experience is probably best if you want hold aggro, since you can't rely on an aura full time, especially on a knockback heavy team. Shields are almost as much fun, and adequate for everything up through the LGTF, but not top drawer for toughness. Ice is a good set with drawbacks, not counting aesthetics; but frankly I'd be reluctant to take on Lord Recluse with it. It's easier to add defense to a resistance set than it is to add resistance to a defense set.
Invulnerability is probably the best choice generally. If you add Tough and Weave, and take RPD, you are capped for smashing and lethal resistance, of very close to capped, which is a good place to be.
I'd pair it with a secondary that doesn't require you to take every attack. You might consider:
- Super Strength (single best AoE, very late though),
- Dark Melee (best to make any tanker tougher, with a self-healing attack, lots of different kinds of control)
- Mace (two good AoEs, one so-so; no longer an underperforming set)
It really is hard to go wrong with a secondary pick for Invulnerability, but Energy Melee (very slow; animations take too long to use in combat) and maybe Dual Blades (very demanding b/c of combo requirements) probably are the bottom tier choices.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Invul is a pretty standard set for any TF/Trial. It has little trouble with the itf or stf in the later game, and everything before them is fairly easy.
Any primary can tank the various task forces, but invul all around is a safe choice if that's specifically what your aiming for and aren't interested in Stone.
Invuln is IMHO the second best primary over all for tankers after Stone Armor. (Notice the IMHO in there) Because it has a solid mixture of defense and resistance plus a solid heal and doesn't have the deragatory debuffs like stone armor does.
Inv/DM is definately a super solid option, with the to hit debuff from DM plus the heal and end recovery powers your have solid survival. you even have the option to take a fear power to make use as a great oh crap button.
What makes me nervous about Ice and Invuln are the holes in their defense. Specifically toxic. Ive seen a number of Posi TFs fall apart because the first few missions have Vahz in them and the INV tanks just cant take the alpha from an 8 man spawn. Since I plan to solely level via TFs I dont want a gaping hole to any one TF. Am I making way to big a deal out of the hole? If so, please let me know.
I feel a little better about shield. With its positional defense shields you have a good base to everything except for a few specific attacks (mainly psychic I believe). It also seems to be easier soft cap with IO out with the positional attacks (from experience on other non tank characters). Does shield have decent taunt capability or does it suffer from the same problem as willpower?
I tried a stone in the past. I just couldnt get it to a workable state. I currently have a fire/ice but it just isnt very playable with the changes, and Im looking to replace it. I like the idea of a Ice/Fire as the ying/yang concept of my fire/ice tanker could easily be ported over but again the toxic whole scares me.
I want to be great at everything, master of none. I dont care what the best is for an ITF run or a MOSTF. I only care that I can tank all TFs effectively and the character doesnt have a major handicap.
[ QUOTE ]
What makes me nervous about Ice and Invuln are the holes in their defense. Specifically toxic. Ive seen a number of Posi TFs fall apart because the first few missions have Vahz in them and the INV tanks just cant take the alpha from an 8 man spawn.
[/ QUOTE ]
No tanker - none - is going to have the ability to last long against a full team spawn of Vahzilok at level 15. (Oddly, the easiest tanker to work in there might be Fire.)
Posi is something you do because either you want to get to level 15 in the course of an evening; or because you are after Task Force Commander. Or you just want a lot of merits, or maybe the badge. But nobody runs Posi for fun. A tanker built to handle Posi well would be both difficult and pointless to make.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
[ QUOTE ]
A tanker built to handle Posi well would be both difficult and pointless to make.
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh made me chuckle, well said.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What makes me nervous about Ice and Invuln are the holes in their defense. Specifically toxic. Ive seen a number of Posi TFs fall apart because the first few missions have Vahz in them and the INV tanks just cant take the alpha from an 8 man spawn.
[/ QUOTE ]
No tanker - none - is going to have the ability to last long against a full team spawn of Vahzilok at level 15. (Oddly, the easiest tanker to work in there might be Fire.)
Posi is something you do because either you want to get to level 15 in the course of an evening; or because you are after Task Force Commander. Or you just want a lot of merits, or maybe the badge. But nobody runs Posi for fun. A tanker built to handle Posi well would be both difficult and pointless to make.
[/ QUOTE ]
Shield isn't bad, I tanked posi and synapse quite happily on my shield/mace. Typed defence is screwed v toxic, but ranged still works.
Numina can be a bit scary for a defence based toon.
And I run posis for fun and merits, but I do it on a blaster, and provided the tank can take the alpha, I can kill the groups before he gets beta'd.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What makes me nervous about Ice and Invuln are the holes in their defense. Specifically toxic. Ive seen a number of Posi TFs fall apart because the first few missions have Vahz in them and the INV tanks just cant take the alpha from an 8 man spawn.
[/ QUOTE ]
No tanker - none - is going to have the ability to last long against a full team spawn of Vahzilok at level 15. (Oddly, the easiest tanker to work in there might be Fire.)
Posi is something you do because either you want to get to level 15 in the course of an evening; or because you are after Task Force Commander. Or you just want a lot of merits, or maybe the badge. But nobody runs Posi for fun. A tanker built to handle Posi well would be both difficult and pointless to make.
[/ QUOTE ]
Shield isn't bad, I tanked posi and synapse quite happily on my shield/mace. Typed defence is screwed v toxic, but ranged still works.
Numina can be a bit scary for a defence based toon.
And I run posis for fun and merits, but I do it on a blaster, and provided the tank can take the alpha, I can kill the groups before he gets beta'd.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just a clarification on the Toxic front since it's been hinted at, but not fully explained.
The reason these sets have a toxic def hole is because there is no such thing as toxic defense in the game. It just doesn't exist. Instead, these sets were given toxic resistance to compensate. (It's in different places depending on the set. Invuln it's in Unyielding and RElements, for Ice it's in Hoarfrost, etc.) Positional def sets (like Shield) can avoid the attacks because they're flagged with a positional flag.
Having said that, the Vahz are unusually brutal enemies for their level. They hit hard, have toxic damage (which isn't the strong point of any set), and Tankers at that level just aren't that sturdy. (AT modifiers haven't fully separated, no SOs, missing powers/slots, etc.)
If I can give you any advice for Positron, it's run it in a small(er) team. The spawns are smaller, the debuffs don't stack as bad, and it generally just makes for a smoother run. The second mission (Rolistar / CoT) is another very troublesome part of the Posi TF, and there's no toxic in sight.
[ QUOTE ]
If I can give you any advice for Positron, it's run it in a small(er) team. The spawns are smaller, the debuffs don't stack as bad, and it generally just makes for a smoother run. The second mission (Rolistar / CoT) is another very troublesome part of the Posi TF, and there's no toxic in sight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Correct, Rollister is either second or third, the order of some of the missions is random, and full of CoT. Ruin mages using earthquake and force fields combined with spectral demon lords and their to hit debuff cause low level groups all kinds of problems.
I try to do this with groups of 2 or 3, although tonight we had 4 (2 15+, 10, 12 with no buffing or healing, tank was 10 shield/stone) and completed in 2 hours 10 minutes, so it needn't be that bad.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
Ive got to be driving you guys crazy, lol. Im pretty sure I dont make much sense to the average person. Ive played invuln, and stone in the past and I am currently playing a shield scrapper. Willpower is the set that honestly interests me the most as I have never played it, followed by Dark.
I opened up mids hero planner last night to see if I could get a good feel for the Willpower weakness. I took a close look at the set and the tanker auras. I figured out what the difference is.
Most auras have a taunt effect that lasts for 11.25 seconds.
Willpowers taunt aura lasts for 1.25 seconds.
I think it is an oversight and will be fixed, so I am going to play one and build around the issue at current.
Since it taunts like every second that gives me very little overlap and really messes stuff up if I miss or purple patch kicks in. So I am going to slot it with 2 acc, 2 taunt, and 2 heal early. That should make sure I hit all but one or two, and have enough duration to keep a +3 or maybe even +4 interested in me for a full cycle. Does that sound about right to you?
On top of that, I will cycle in taunt as often as possible to keep everybody loving me. Its autohit right? So on the big +5 AV I should be able to keep his attention.
Finally I will take fire as my secondary. Combustion is a power available at level 4 it has twice the radius of RTTC (15 feet) and has a normal taunt duration of 11.5 seconds. With only one or two recharge DOs I should be able to get that to overlap ensuring I keep everybody interested in me.
Im going to have to work harder at holding Agro, but as a tank I am cool with that. Its well rounded with defense/resistance and regen. The only real hole I see is fighting AVs once the minions are down as you have no fodder to feed RTTC. How big of an issue will that be?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What makes me nervous about Ice and Invuln are the holes in their defense. Specifically toxic. Ive seen a number of Posi TFs fall apart because the first few missions have Vahz in them and the INV tanks just cant take the alpha from an 8 man spawn.
[/ QUOTE ]
No tanker - none - is going to have the ability to last long against a full team spawn of Vahzilok at level 15. (Oddly, the easiest tanker to work in there might be Fire.)
Posi is something you do because either you want to get to level 15 in the course of an evening; or because you are after Task Force Commander. Or you just want a lot of merits, or maybe the badge. But nobody runs Posi for fun. A tanker built to handle Posi well would be both difficult and pointless to make.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just to add to this ... a full group Posi TF is the hardest TF in the game right now (and always has been).
Hmmmmm, wanting to opt out a stone tank? Not good. You don't need a Kin for SB. Just pick teleport and teleport to each mob. That is what I do and it is quickly moveable. Stone armor is the best bet.
I tanked a two man Posi just fine with my WP/DB. The mobs rarely touched the scrapper I was duoing with. If you have tanking experience, you should be able to compensate for the general lack of a standard taunt aura.
[ QUOTE ]
Most auras have a taunt effect that lasts for 11.25 seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
The taunt duration of non-Willpower taunt auras is actually level-dependent. For Invulnerability and Shield Defense it's 0.375*(level-5) seconds (maximum 16.875 seconds at level 50), for all other taunt auras (except RttC) it's 0.3*(level-5) seconds (maximum 13.5 seconds).
[ QUOTE ]
Willpowers taunt aura lasts for 1.25 seconds.
I think it is an oversight and will be fixed, so I am going to play one and build around the issue at current.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not an oversight. Castle has confirmed that this is intentional. It is generally recommended enhancing it with 2-3 taunt duration enhancements.
[ QUOTE ]
Since it taunts like every second that gives me very little overlap and really messes stuff up if I miss or purple patch kicks in. So I am going to slot it with 2 acc, 2 taunt, and 2 heal early.
[/ QUOTE ]
Accuracy enhancements are pointless for RttC -- it is an auto-hit aura. Unless you have specific set bonuses in mind, 3 heal enhancements and 2-3 taunt duration enhancements are recommended.
[ QUOTE ]
That should make sure I hit all but one or two, and have enough duration to keep a +3 or maybe even +4 interested in me for a full cycle. Does that sound about right to you?
[/ QUOTE ]
That's what the general testing and experience has confirmed, more or less. Personally, I go for three taunt duration enhancements to keep things stable against +4s, but some consider it overkill.
[ QUOTE ]
On top of that, I will cycle in taunt as often as possible to keep everybody loving me. Its autohit right? So on the big +5 AV I should be able to keep his attention.
[/ QUOTE ]
Taunt has multiple purposes when you're a Willpower tanker. The main problem that you have is that mobs that are only tagged by your aura (but no other effect) tend to lose interest in you as soon as you move away from them. Taunt can therefore capture the attention of critters that are where you cannot currently move to without losing the aggro of the mobs next to you; conversely, it can also glue those mobs to you while you're moving elsewhere. On AV fights, it helps because taunt aura and gauntlet get hefty to-hit penalties and you cannot expect 100% taunt effect uptime on AVs without Taunt (it's a risk for other tankers, too, but much less than for Willpower). On some AV fights, it can also be prudent to stay out of melee range (this is regardless of your primary, though), and Taunt helps with that.
[ QUOTE ]
Finally I will take fire as my secondary. Combustion is a power available at level 4 it has twice the radius of RTTC (15 feet) and has a normal taunt duration of 11.5 seconds. With only one or two recharge DOs I should be able to get that to overlap ensuring I keep everybody interested in me.
[/ QUOTE ]
The taunt duration of Gauntlet effects is also level-dependent. It is NOT a constant 11.5 seconds, it is 0.3*(level-5) seconds, reduced by purple patch resistance. For example, at level 30 against +3 foes, it can only be expected to last 4.875 seconds.
For that matter, it's far from impossible to hold aggro without frequent AEs. Those help, but between your aura, Gauntlet (especially now that melee attacks have a 7' range), and Taunt (ideally enhanced for recharge) you can get pretty solid aggro, as long as you have a good memory for what foes you have tagged through what means.
[ QUOTE ]
Im going to have to work harder at holding Agro, but as a tank I am cool with that. Its well rounded with defense/resistance and regen. The only real hole I see is fighting AVs once the minions are down as you have no fodder to feed RTTC. How big of an issue will that be?
[/ QUOTE ]
Expect survivability issues primarily from burst damage, especially of the non-S/L/Psi kind. Of course, even relatively minimal buffing from team mates and/or inspirations can generally handle that.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im going to have to work harder at holding Agro, but as a tank I am cool with that. Its well rounded with defense/resistance and regen. The only real hole I see is fighting AVs once the minions are down as you have no fodder to feed RTTC. How big of an issue will that be?
[/ QUOTE ]
Expect survivability issues primarily from burst damage, especially of the non-S/L/Psi kind. Of course, even relatively minimal buffing from team mates and/or inspirations can generally handle that.
[/ QUOTE ]
In my experience, burst damage became much less of a problem once I picked up Tough/Weave. For heavy duty Tanking, I heartily recommend it.
The simplest way to boost WP's survivability in trouble spots are luck inspirations. The only place that's not true is against Cimerorans (eat oranges up to 85-90% s/l).
I don't believe RttC even accepts slots for accuracy; it is auto-hit for anything short of an AV. Taunt can be slotted for accuracy, but is auto-hit in PvE, so there's no point. You definitely want to get as much regeneration out of RttC as you can.
On one of my 50 WP tankers, I have it six slotted: two straight taunts, the other four slots frankenslotted (Miracle/Numina) for heal and heal/endurance.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
[ QUOTE ]
What makes me nervous about Ice and Invuln are the holes in their defense. Specifically toxic. Ive seen a number of Posi TFs fall apart because the first few missions have Vahz in them and the INV tanks just cant take the alpha from an 8 man spawn. Since I plan to solely level via TFs I dont want a gaping hole to any one TF. Am I making way to big a deal out of the hole? If so, please let me know.
[/ QUOTE ]
Interestingly, Invulnerability doesn't have a hole vs Toxic.
Nobody gets defense vs Toxic damage type per se. I'm not sure if Vazh toxic attacks have a positional component. But looking at resists against Toxic damage:
Inv: 10% res from Unyielding and 10% from Resist Elements
Fire: 20% from Healing Flames, stackable at high recharge
Dark: 20% from Dark Embrace
Ice: 20% from Hoarfrost
Shield: 15% from True Grit
Stone: 20% from Earth's Embrace (not very stackable)
WP: 7.5% from High Pain Tolerance
Some tier 9s give better protection (Granite, Unstoppable, One with the Shield, off the top of my head) but that's no help against Vahz, because you don't fight Vahz at high levels.
Note that from that list Shield and WP get the least Toxic resists but they also have the most permanent hit points due to the way the powers work. Dark and Fire can repeat their self-heals often enough to matter, making their 20% resistance go farther, and Fire can even stack the resist total a bit, although that's hard at Positron TF levels. Stone can't, not really, and probably won't have its 20% toxic res all the time due to the long recharge on Earth's Embrace; but Stone's Rooted will help with a little bit of regen.
Overall, Fire and Dark might be your best bet for unsupported (or poorly-supported) Vahz tanking, but perhaps Shield would be good too if there's a positional component to Vahz attacks (thus bringing Shield's positional defense into play).
But the truth is, nobody tanks big herds of Vahz. Not reliably. Tons of the right kind of buffs might make it doable, but generally I like control powers to neutralize the Vahz. (Ice Slick is a fantastic Vahz-hunting tool).
I think the "psi hole" is generally overrated in PVE. My Inv Tanker cruised through a six-player Psi Clockwork King mission with a little care. For Task Forces, the Devouring Earth drops (quartz emanators) and the Shadow Shard TFs (if you're including those) hurting defense-based Tankers would be a bigger deal. With Tough, an Inv tanker doesn't suffer too badly at the hands of the DE; Shields might have a harder time due to not having that fat 90% S/L resistance (haven't got a Shield Tanker above 8 yet).
In overall reputation, speaking strictly of durability, and bearing in mind these are fairly small degrees of difference, the heavy tanker types are generally ranked roughly thus:
Stone (in Granite)
Inv (tied with WP except a bit more solid against alphas and S/L)
WP (tied with Inv except a bit better in some situations of sustained high incoming damage and non-S/L)
Ice
Dark with an alert player (The heal can handle *anything* if your timing is perfect)
Shield and/or Fire
If you're really concerned about holes, I'd go Dark; it puts up with middle-strength resistances to gain well-rounded protection, and backs it all up with the best heal in the game. Throw in a control-oriented secondary and you're golden.
edit: a whole lot of posts slipped in while I was looking up Toxic resistance numbers and writing this. :P
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
[ QUOTE ]
I tanked a two man Posi just fine with my WP/DB. The mobs rarely touched the scrapper I was duoing with. If you have tanking experience, you should be able to compensate for the general lack of a standard taunt aura.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hence why I said *full* group.
[ QUOTE ]
Nobody gets defense vs Toxic damage type per se. I'm not sure if Vazh toxic attacks have a positional component.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the zombies/abominations have [Projectile Vomit] (ranged) and [Zombie Vomit] (AoE, 5 targets max, 5 ft. radius). The [Dart Gun] that reapers and mortificators use is oddly enough classified as ranged/lethal, even though it deals purely toxic damage.
The best single powerset to take against Vahzilok is, in my experience, Force Fields. 40% toxic resistance (unenhanceable) from Deflection Shield and 25% ranged/AoE defense (enhanceable) from Insulation Shield/Dispersion Bubble combine for some pretty darn nice mitigation.
Im looking at building a Tank and leveling him mostly by leading TFs. Im looking for something that will be solidly built against ALL types of enemies for this reason, and something with strong agro capability to hold the mobs attention. The tank must also be self sufficient, meaning he doesnt need anybody to keep him moving or alive. I imagine the toughest point will be Posi and Synapse since his protections wont be fully fleshed out at that point
Are there any specific builds I should avoid? I assume Stone is out, since I dont want to be relying on a /kin. I have heard willpowers aoe taunt toggle isnt quite as good as the others. Is this true?