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But if nothing else is recharged, you may pause for 2 seconds to gut that dps?
Also, snipes are amazing if activated at the last second of a build up attack chain.
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Well lets think about that example. If say we looked at a 10 second attack sequence that had a 2 sec gap that we decide to fill with snipe we'd get:
9.28 vs 9.935
So in that case adding snipe benefited us with 0.66 DS compared to without. Sounds worthwhile?
Well 0.66DS is lower than any other dom attack you could stick in there. Imagine sticking incinerate into that 2 sec gap. And instead you'd get a 2.12DS increase for nearly half the endurance and without the risk of interruption, or being locked into a 4.5 sec cast.
Assuming we were going pure ranged even the poor efficiency of a st immob or hold would prove a better choice for the gap you gave.
Like I said, you need a very large gap to make the snipe the best choice to fill it, even before taking into account the drawbacks it brings.
Also, I'm afraid you'll have to do a better pitch than saying a snipe is awesomesauce at the end of a 30 sec duration once every 90 sec (10 sec of every 45 for bu) *rough SO'd numbers*. Not only does that put it in a "barely ever used" category (assuming you have a damage boosting power, which psi and eng don't), it also makes the gigantic assumption that you have a suitable target at that exact moment in time.
Sure I've lined up 5 targets and crit all of them with Headsplitter 
(actually I haven't, I think I've only gotten 3 to crit), but I'm not going to base anything off of once in a blue moon performance.
IMO snipes still don't cut the mustard outside of concept/thematic reasoning and need a serious overhaul for all AT's that have access to them before they become better than bottom of the barrel.
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Also, snipes are amazing if activated at the last second of a build up attack chain.
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Well lets think about that example. If say we looked at a 10 second attack sequence that had a 2 sec gap .....
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Read what he said again. It's not a 2 second gap, it's not even a 1 second gap. It's clicking the snipe right before the build up buff goes away, essentially extending the build up time from 10 seconds to just under 12 seconds. If you can figure out an attack sequence that leaves you just a breath of time at the end of it so you can do that consistently.... That's what he's talking about.
(I do something similar on all the ATs that have build up/aim, put the longest animating attacks at the end so I get that -> <- much more of a boost. It's not often OMGAWESOMESAUCE! but it *is* significant. For example, my Electric Melee stalker saves Thunder Strike for last, "adding" 3.3s to Build Ups buff time.)
I must admit that I always assumed if the attack didn't go off by the time the Build Up ended, it was lost. 
I'll have to try this.
FYI, Starsman the new patch is up, Psi Shock Wave was not increased to 16 targets though I assume its coming in a later patch.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Also, snipes are amazing if activated at the last second of a build up attack chain.
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Well lets think about that example. If say we looked at a 10 second attack sequence that had a 2 sec gap .....
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Read what he said again. It's not a 2 second gap, it's not even a 1 second gap. It's clicking the snipe right before the build up buff goes away, essentially extending the build up time from 10 seconds to just under 12 seconds. If you can figure out an attack sequence that leaves you just a breath of time at the end of it so you can do that consistently.... That's what he's talking about.
(I do something similar on all the ATs that have build up/aim, put the longest animating attacks at the end so I get that -> <- much more of a boost. It's not often OMGAWESOMESAUCE! but it *is* significant. For example, my Electric Melee stalker saves Thunder Strike for last, "adding" 3.3s to Build Ups buff time.)
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Perhaps you should reread. Two distinct scenarios were raised.
1. attack chain gaps, of which 2 sec was cited
2. end of a buff cycle
I addressed both.
I'm very familiar with using long cast powers right at the end of a buff cycle. It is indeed very good. The difference between using a power like total focus in that role and a snipe is that outside of the buff cycle total focus is still a regularly used power. The snipe is not.
Just to reiterate, the snipes won't be part of a regular attack chain (even pretending they weren't interpretable). If the best "sell" for taking it is to time it right at the end of a buff cycle while assuming you have a suitable target to use it on, I think that is the definition of - highly situational. (especially considering only 2 of the 4 dom sets with snipes even get a +dam power)
Some highly situational powers do make it into builds. In this case I don't think snipes will be one of them. (I mean actually used in the build, not just an IO mule).
Basically, because of all the drawbacks that snipes have they need to break the mold and offer something very attractive. Increasing the DPA by upping the rech was a good idea (they also realize snipes aren't used in normal attack chains).
It just has to go even further imo. However, they already cost nearly a fifth of an end bar, so at this point I'm backed into a corner and have to suggest that the get "free" damage added to make them more attractive.
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I must admit that I always assumed if the attack didn't go off by the time the Build Up ended, it was lost. I'll have to try this.
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The damage is resolved upon clicking the power: hit/miss, target susceptibility, caster strength.
Please don't mistake any of my comments as being confrontational, they aren't intended that way.
I think the question to ask regarding snipes is:
(on test) are they attractive enough to warrant most builds seeking their (frequent) use?
I believe the answer for the majority of players will remain - no.
IME it is rare for highly situational damage powers to become "must haves" or even "recommended". Nukes are about all I can think of and they are sought after for obvious reasons.
Random guy said: Didn't this used to say increased from 10 to 16 mobs hit? Or am I losing my mind?
Castle replies: It did. That, however, missed the cut off and won't be in til NEXT patch.
So it's definitely coming.
Active (Freedom): Setna (Ice/Psi Dom), Arram (WP/KM Tank), Tesmiel (Elec/SS Tank), Astredax (Robot/Dark Mastermind), Operative Vidali (melee fortunata)
Retired (Virtue): Gaav (Inv/EM Tank), Baqra (Fire/SS Tank)
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I must admit that I always assumed if the attack didn't go off by the time the Build Up ended, it was lost. I'll have to try this.
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The damage is resolved upon clicking the power: hit/miss, target susceptibility, caster strength.
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If by susceptibility you mean defense I agree. If you also include resistance I don't. I've had Sands of Mu damage ticks lower halfway through the animation when a -res effect dropped off the target. Resistance seems to check when the damage is applied, not when the power is activated.
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I must admit that I always assumed if the attack didn't go off by the time the Build Up ended, it was lost. I'll have to try this.
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The damage is resolved upon clicking the power: hit/miss, target susceptibility, caster strength.
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If by susceptibility you mean defense I agree. If you also include resistance I don't. I've had Sands of Mu damage ticks lower halfway through the animation when a -res effect dropped off the target. Resistance seems to check when the damage is applied, not when the power is activated.
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agreed, my mistake I was trying to remember how it was for scream and fudged it up in my head.
Heck its damage increases during the attack by its own volition.
(QR)
I finally got to test my high level fire/fire dom (was bussy testing every set's early level experience) and I was easily able to sustain a full attack chain with just Flares, Fire Blast and Blaze. No need for extra powers and that was without activating Hasten.
This was not respec, my flares is only 4 slotted with Thunder Strike, Fire Blast is 5 slotted, also with Thunder Strikes, and Blaze is six slotted with 4 thunder stirkes and the 3ways from Ruin.
I am sure anyone that ran a high recharge build should have at least Flares available to use almost all the time. 100% recharge alone can take the power to 2 second recharge. The recharge needed for perma dom would have the power recharging in much less than 2 seconds from when it's done activating. In my test, I never had to worry about it not being up in between attacks.
Maybe other doms may have issues filling purely ranged chains, but fire is not one of them.
Mind posting your build?
*I just used the damage numbers you posted in
damage #'s
The damage is largely irrelevant to the point I'm making, just nice to compare is all.
The chain I'm looking at is:
flare>blast>flare>blaze>repeat
requires:
236% rech in flares
124% rech in fireblast
214% rech in blaze
consumes:
6.14 EPS
produces:
610 damage, 121.7 dps
19.82 damage/end
200%+rech means we are talking perma dom so on live a chain of:
blast>blaze>blast>flare>repeat
Requires:
0% rech in flare
236% rech in fireblast
144% rech in blaze
Consumes:
4.64 EPS
Produces:
507.9 damage, 98.2 DPS
21.16 damage/end
I see several things:
1. test is unsustainable and requires heavy IO's to get the recharge needed and get that insane endurance consumption under control. Impossible for a SO build.
Even at 95% end reduct slotting that end consumption is on the high side.
2. A nice increase in dps that can be attributed to fireblast bottlenecking the live version, but live version gets more damage per endurance spent. If we factor in that test is unsustainable drain well the comparison gets really lopsided.
Ya I'd like to see your build that is "easily able sustain a full attack chain" of the 3 ranged attacks without even using hasten.
At most you get 68% of the necessary 236% in flares from your slotting. I'd really like to see a build that has 168% global recharge!!! (no hasten after all right?)
I'm not trying to aggressively call you out, but your claims don't sound true, and posting inaccurate information as hard data isn't really helping the cause.
My boss killing chain on live is
blast>blaze>incin>repeat
requires:
32% rech in fireblast
203% rech in blaze
203% rech in incinerate
consumes:
5.38 EPS
Produces:
512 damage, 114.3 DPS
On test:
That same chain would require:
163% rech in blast
263% rech in blaze
278% rech in incin
So in other words one of the most extreme IO builds possible. So in other words the build now requires an additional fully slotted assault power (flares).
A chain of:
blaze>blast>incin>flare>repeat
Requires:
167% rech in blaze
161% rech in incinerate
45% rech in blast
0% rech in flare
(160% rech is a pretty solid IO build).
Consumes:
6.31 EPS
Produces:
748.24 damage, 131.8 dps
So we are now in a situation requiring a whole additional slotted power, still has unsustainable endurance consumption for a small dps bump.
Like I keep saying, the peak performance is higher for fire, but unlocking it is not easy at all.
Both chains have very high EPS burn, but the live one is thankfully only used on hard targets and is replaced by the much more EPS friendly chain in my previous post. ALL the chains on test have unsustainable EPS burn.
I'm having trouble feeling very "buffed" as a /fire dom. In all likelyhood w/e damage I could gain now has to be slotted for end reduction instead.
I don't tend to do chains, instead tend to use the best available power but for the ranged test I would try to use flares whenever it was up even if it is not the best power for DPS.
I'm not very fond of posting my builds but I have no issue posting the enhancement on my attacks:
Flares:
83.3% DMG
19.0% Acc
42.6% RCH (2.8s)
62.0% END
Fire Blast:
95.8% DMG
37.8% Acc
62.3% RCH (4.93s)
62.0% END
Blaze:
95.1 % DMG
75.8 % Acc
76.1 % RCH (6.81s)
80.1 % END
On top of that I got a lowly 10% global recharge, and tend to have Hasten in Auto although not for the better part of this test (it's not perma on my build anyways)
If I include Incinerate I can just activate the powers in the order of best DPAS and I don't get pauses, there is always something ready to be fired. If I try to do fixed chains, though, I do get into gap issues. If I go with dynamic selection I have none.
Sort of makes sense, but at some point you are going to be forced to use:
flares>x>flares
where x = blast or blaze
meaning flares needs a recharge of 1.188 to 1.45 seconds.
2.8 - 1.45 = 1.35 second gap
2.8 - 1.188= 1.6 second gap
That seems very clunky to me, but ymmv. Gaps that big make me feel like I'm playing a low level broadsword character with no slash.
Incinerate certianly can alleviate the gap(s), but you were talking about a ranged chain of the 3 blasts.
Also as I brought up in some other post, if a chain requires the dom to be in melee range then what is the point of having ranged attacks? doms don't have runners unless they want to have runners.
I'd rather have melee attacks with the higher modifier and higher damage if stuck in melee anyway.
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I finally got to test my high level fire/fire dom (was bussy testing every set's early level experience) and I was easily able to sustain a full attack chain with just Flares, Fire Blast and Blaze. No need for extra powers and that was without activating Hasten.
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On my fire / fire, at 50, with 120 global recharge + Hasten, I could chain Incinerate> Flares > Blaze > Flares > Incinerate. Live, I can do Incinerate > Flares > Blaze > Incinerate > ad nauseum. The total DPS, just guesstimating, isn't all that different between live and test. And I was pleasantly surprised at what happened when I ate a bunch of reds.
But ...
Exemped down to 16 with 67.5 global recharge, no hasten, things were different. With Flares, Incinerate, and Char, I couldn't get a good ST flow going. And that's with /far/ more recharge than any lowbie / newbie would ever be able to get in CoV. I HATE standing around waiting for powers to recharge. HATE it. One of things I like about CoX is that, by the teens, most of my toons always have a button to click that does something useful, but I'm losing out on that.
The extra damage out of dom nice, but ... Fire's quick animations seem out of place when you're sitting around with nothing to do. And, crikey, that time not spent dominating is time not spent on building domination.
Well ... that's not quite true. I could fill time by using Cages, but that power has a massive end cost, and is, frankly, a death sentence on lowbie teams due to its ability to grab aggro. Keeping mobs out of melee's a nice idea and all, but if you want a decent Fire Assault attack chain, I'm pretty sure that Incinerate went from "nice" to required, and that makes immobs a pretty mediocre way of reducing incoming damage.
I wonder if we'll be seeing doms putting Brawl on auto?
Hmmm ...
What I'm getting is that the increased end drain and recharge times will still push people towards high recharge builds, for perma-Domination, reasonable recharge times on powers like Consume, and for being able to make decent ST attack chains without having to take 4 or 5 ST attacks (or calling cones ST attacks).
The changes are like 2 steps forward and 1.75 back, especially since I don't see things getting better in the lowbie game since the game's not exactly awash in buffs that increase recovery or recharge pre-20.
So ... I dunno. Castle's set out to revamp Doms, but either I'm not quite understanding what his goals are, or he's missed the mark. My dom /might/ be more effective at lower levels, but she feels wrong.
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I finally got to test my high level fire/fire dom (was bussy testing every set's early level experience) and I was easily able to sustain a full attack chain with just Flares, Fire Blast and Blaze. No need for extra powers and that was without activating Hasten.
[/ QUOTE ]
On my fire / fire, at 50, with 120 global recharge + Hasten, I could chain Incinerate> Flares > Blaze > Flares > Incinerate. Live, I can do Incinerate > Flares > Blaze > Incinerate > ad nauseum. The total DPS, just guesstimating, isn't all that different between live and test. And I was pleasantly surprised at what happened when I ate a bunch of reds.
But ...
Exemped down to 16 with 67.5 global recharge, no hasten, things were different. With Flares, Incinerate, and Char, I couldn't get a good ST flow going. And that's with /far/ more recharge than any lowbie / newbie would ever be able to get in CoV. I HATE standing around waiting for powers to recharge. HATE it. One of things I like about CoX is that, by the teens, most of my toons always have a button to click that does something useful, but I'm losing out on that.
The extra damage out of dom nice, but ... Fire's quick animations seem out of place when you're sitting around with nothing to do. And, crikey, that time not spent dominating is time not spent on building domination.
Well ... that's not quite true. I could fill time by using Cages, but that power has a massive end cost, and is, frankly, a death sentence on lowbie teams due to its ability to grab aggro. Keeping mobs out of melee's a nice idea and all, but if you want a decent Fire Assault attack chain, I'm pretty sure that Incinerate went from "nice" to required, and that makes immobs a pretty mediocre way of reducing incoming damage.
I wonder if we'll be seeing doms putting Brawl on auto?
Hmmm ...
What I'm getting is that the increased end drain and recharge times will still push people towards high recharge builds, for perma-Domination, reasonable recharge times on powers like Consume, and for being able to make decent ST attack chains without having to take 4 or 5 ST attacks (or calling cones ST attacks).
The changes are like 2 steps forward and 1.75 back, especially since I don't see things getting better in the lowbie game since the game's not exactly awash in buffs that increase recovery or recharge pre-20.
So ... I dunno. Castle's set out to revamp Doms, but either I'm not quite understanding what his goals are, or he's missed the mark. My dom /might/ be more effective at lower levels, but she feels wrong.
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Starsman is simply incorrect in the statement you quoted. Either he is unaware of 1.5 second pauses, or he was mixing in other powers that he did not include in his statement.
I pretty much agree with everything you've stated.
I've seen the idea of doms using "brawl" posted several times. I think that this idea is even being considered highlights pretty clearly that something is off with the dom changes.
IMO the changes aren't that bad, they just aren't that great either. And they probably have to be "great" to have a meaningful impact on such a low ranked AT.
By popular demand, here is an analysis that takes endurance into count.
If anyone is pondering, the Endurance Eff columns mean about how much end per damage per second is used. It is irrelevant as to whether or not the set is good at AoE or damage but instead if it is efficient endurance wise.
In short here is how much sets went up or down (relative, does not denotes who is more efficient than who)
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Set ST AoE
Elec +12.55% +09.19%
Ene +01.49% +06.60%
Fire -08.26% -19.45%
Ice +02.97% -00.63%
Psi +07.52% -60.36%
Thrn -09.31% -12.41%</pre><hr />
Positive means the set is now more endurance efficient than before, negative means it's less efficient than before.
Now for those that wants to know who is more efficient:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Set ST AoE
Elec 2.29 1.55
Ener 2.68 1.92
Fire 2.80 0.89
Ice 2.89 1.21
Psi 2.88 1.12
Thrn 2.61 0.75
</pre><hr />
Lower numbers are better.
Mind that your millage may vary. If you decide to use more ranged attacks than melee, your endurance efficiency will be less, if you rather use more melee attacks your endurance efficiency will be better. The calculator will take into mind this efficiency and only use ranged attacks if they are 10% superior to the melee ones.
Disclaimer: I still have some more audit passes to make sure I got all the new endurance costs right but I THINK they are right. Will triple check later once I have a chance to compare in-game numbers.
Darn some notes I had not seen came into test will have to change this again to reflect the latest patch notes.
But if nothing else is recharged, you may pause for 2 seconds to gut that dps?
Also, snipes are amazing if activated at the last second of a build up attack chain.