[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually Starsman would it be possible for you to do up one more chart demonstrating a heavily IO'd dom live vs test.
I'm thinking:
60% rech enhancement
70% hasten
80% global rech
210% rech, or 3.1 modifier.
Basically single stack perma dom with accompanied recharge levels vs that same build on test?
[/ QUOTE ]
Right now I'm assuming 50% recharge that can come from anywhere, be it slotting or set bonuses.
I can increase the number easily the question is to how much while expecting it to be realistic the used powers will be properly slotted for damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
The numbers I just gave are pretty easy to do for an IO build.
Not common, just interested in seeing how the charts line up for a more min/max approach.
No hurry if you feel like it great. If not I'll be doing it for my individual doms anyway.
thanks in advance.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm using 50% recharge.
Look at the far right, if you sum the percentages by the names and don't get 100%, then there do are gaps. (no I have not checked that rushing to a meeting.)
Still, using those powers Fire is keeping up almost tied with energy, gaps or no gaps.
[/ QUOTE ]
No i get that, but we all know gaps aren't fun.
Well not entirely true, I don't mind them sometimes if I have a nice power to fill it with (like a procced out char) to raise dps even more. But at the same time, I'm not liking the extreme recharge needed to flush out a full fire chain from range. That is a big barrier to entry imo.
QR
[ QUOTE ]
I can increase the number easily the question is to how much while expecting it to be realistic the used powers will be properly slotted for damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would assume you'd look at the global recharge rates that are generally accepted as the most desirable to get dominators to prior to i15 (approximate global recharges that I've been using: 72.5% for perma dom with hasten, 125% for perma dom without hasten). I would assume this analysis would better prove the impact of i15 changes to existing permadoms rather than the low level recharge analysis .
Positron has stolen my Eludium Pu-36 Explosive Space Modulator!
Starsman,
Is Electricity Assault performing WORSE because VS pet doesn't get any of the new buff? Assuming every power is adjusted, does VS pull down Elec set or no?
I kinda like VS but they took away Scourge (bummer) and it won't receive any damage increase from the new buff.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Hmmm... I think I was having VS buffed by domination in my "Before" now that you mention it... i don't think VS benefits from domination so I got to review that....
I never accounted it scourgeing, btw.
That being told: VS actually is free damage so no, it does not pull down the set. On the other hand, without it you do much less damage. I like to think about it as a focused damage aura. You can't control who will be hit every tick, but it will hit some one. If facing a single foe it will stay put on him. With many foes it may spread the damage a bit.
Edit: double checked, I didn't.
The reason Elec "went down" (mind you, not by a lot) was because of some extremely high Damage Per Activation Time powers being reduced in damage/recharge. These powers will be up more often but also yield less damage per activation time. The net result is barely palpable after the base modifier increase, though.
[ QUOTE ]
The reason Elec "went down" (mind you, not by a lot) was because of some extremely high Damage Per Activation Time powers being reduced in damage/recharge. These powers will be up more often but also yield less damage per activation time. The net result is barely palpable after the base modifier increase, though.
[/ QUOTE ]
but it sure would be smoking had they not nerfed it.
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm... I think I was having VS buffed by domination in my "Before" now that you mention it... i don't think VS benefits from domination so I got to review that....
I never accounted it scourgeing, btw.
That being told: VS actually is free damage so no, it does not pull down the set. On the other hand, without it you do much less damage. I like to think about it as a focused damage aura. You can't control who will be hit every tick, but it will hit some one. If facing a single foe it will stay put on him. With many foes it may spread the damage a bit.
Edit: double checked, I didn't.
[/ QUOTE ]
So Electricity was "out-performing" that much then? I like VS but I figure Dom's base damage buff won't increase VS' damage.
Still good to know that Elec performs well.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Does VS use the pet damage scale? If so, the changes won't affect it, but since pets have a higher base ranged damage than Dominators (even after the changes) that's no big deal.
Oh, Starsman, just curious... what program do you use to make those charts? It looks like you have some pretty fancy calculations going on that seem like more than just Excel can handle...
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
[ QUOTE ]
Definitively, they would be doing more damage than any blaster in the game too. 
[/ QUOTE ]
Meh I'll wager my fire/elec blaster against that any day of the week 
Though I won't lie fire is carrying a lot of that weight.
aim and bu both on a 28 second cycle, defiance running about 40% +dam and roughly the same base damage for the /elec attacks (had it not been nerfed) and powersink fulling unlimited endurance compared to dominations limited endurance refill.
Meh I wouldn't be losing any sleep if Castle left /elec doms unnerfed. I'd like them to have a taste of what being a damage god is like
I have no issues allowing some of the dom sets to be strictly for people interested in investing in their toon, of which /elec needs heaps of recharge (live numbers for recharge) to be amazing.
Maybe Castle will squeek in some VS changes before this goes live.
4 minute recharge and duration. Please. Pretty please?
[ QUOTE ]
Does VS use the pet damage scale? If so, the changes won't affect it, but since pets have a higher base ranged damage than Dominators (even after the changes) that's no big deal.
[/ QUOTE ]
VS uses pet mods, yes.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, Starsman, just curious... what program do you use to make those charts? It looks like you have some pretty fancy calculations going on that seem like more than just Excel can handle...
[/ QUOTE ]
Google Docs Spreadsheet. All functions I use are supported by excel but one, one that makes the cornerstone of it all (a resort selection formula that does not require manual resorting of a full section.)
Hey Starsman,
I didn't see if you said you'd be willing to make up a chart of a high recharge dom (ie perma dom rech, with hasten, and decent rech in each attack)?
I'd say: 80% global, hasten, and 60% in each attack (I know you just use it as one value, just breaking it down to show the rationale), but anywhere in that neighborhood would be awesome.
Really curious to see how a true perma dom stacks up to the new dom for all the sets under heavy IO builds. It should serve really well as a conversation piece for people worried about their current perma doms.
Just a yay or nay is cool by me. I'm not trying to rush you I just keep searching your name hoping for a new update, but if you don't have time then I can stop that!
lates.
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Starsman,
I didn't see if you said you'd be willing to make up a chart of a high recharge dom (ie perma dom rech, with hasten, and decent rech in each attack)?
I'd say: 80% global, hasten, and 60% in each attack (I know you just use it as one value, just breaking it down to show the rationale), but anywhere in that neighborhood would be awesome.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here you go
Its set at 150%, bit higher than you noted but figured I'd stick close to the High Recharge value I use in my other melee charts.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Starsman,
I didn't see if you said you'd be willing to make up a chart of a high recharge dom (ie perma dom rech, with hasten, and decent rech in each attack)?
I'd say: 80% global, hasten, and 60% in each attack (I know you just use it as one value, just breaking it down to show the rationale), but anywhere in that neighborhood would be awesome.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here you go
Its set at 150%, bit higher than you noted but figured I'd stick close to the High Recharge value I use in my other melee charts.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just curious... 150% is this in reference to the global recharge that could be monitored on a toon? Or does number also include the recharge slotting for individual powers? If assuming hasten is being used to help account for this, is an average recharge time used (averaged over time when hasten fires, cools down, and is ready to fire again)?
Thanks for the number crunching
Positron has stolen my Eludium Pu-36 Explosive Space Modulator!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Starsman,
I didn't see if you said you'd be willing to make up a chart of a high recharge dom (ie perma dom rech, with hasten, and decent rech in each attack)?
I'd say: 80% global, hasten, and 60% in each attack (I know you just use it as one value, just breaking it down to show the rationale), but anywhere in that neighborhood would be awesome.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here you go
Its set at 150%, bit higher than you noted but figured I'd stick close to the High Recharge value I use in my other melee charts.
[/ QUOTE ]
150 is actually a bit lower as I was thinking 200+, but this does the job just as well.
Thanks much.
It does certainly show that the goal of minimally impacting perma doms was achieved.
hmm one more question though. Any chance your charts could show the EPS burn? (no end reduction slotting is fine for comparison imo).
Quality work.
[ QUOTE ]
Just curious... 150% is this in reference to the global recharge that could be monitored on a toon? Or does number also include the recharge slotting for individual powers?
[/ QUOTE ]
You get to pick.
Basically it assumes the power gets 150% recharge, part of it can come from slotting part form global recharge. It could all be pure global recharge. Obviously it all can't come from slotting as the ED cap will be 95%.
In the end for my calculator it's irrelevant where it comes from.
but 80 + 60... oh also hasten.... missed that.
[ QUOTE ]
Any chance your charts could show the EPS burn?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not in their current form, would be a bucketload of work as they were not designed with endurance use in mind. I did some math to assume what would prioritize more end effective powers for the amount of foes.
Although I may do something in the future that reflects this it may not be any time soon, and by soon i mean few months.
[ QUOTE ]
hmm one more question though. Any chance your charts could show the EPS burn? (no end reduction slotting is fine for comparison imo).
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh there is impact alright. You will notice various sets jumped from requiring 3 attacks in the chain to requiring 4 (not the full secondary as some have tried to cliam.)
AoE damage now works based on hitting more foes for bit less damage, it evens out but those that would only fight 10 foes would find themselves underfperform unless they change that way of fighting (although if they were farmers they may had also taken the PPP aoe that hits 16 so it would had been a waste from the start to only do that)
There will be performance changes to specific builds, some builds will have to change to come out back on top, some cases may just require play style to change a bit.
But the overall potential of the sets, that technically didn't suffer THAT much.
[ QUOTE ]
but 80 + 60... oh also hasten.... missed that.
[ QUOTE ]
Any chance your charts could show the EPS burn?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not in their current form, would be a bucketload of work as they were not designed with endurance use in mind. I did some math to assume what would prioritize more end effective powers for the amount of foes.
Although I may do something in the future that reflects this it may not be any time soon, and by soon i mean few months.
[ QUOTE ]
hmm one more question though. Any chance your charts could show the EPS burn? (no end reduction slotting is fine for comparison imo).
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh there is impact alright. You will notice various sets jumped from requiring 3 attacks in the chain to requiring 4 (not the full secondary as some have tried to cliam.)
AoE damage now works based on hitting more foes for bit less damage, it evens out but those that would only fight 10 foes would find themselves underfperform unless they change that way of fighting (although if they were farmers they may had also taken the PPP aoe that hits 16 so it would had been a waste from the start to only do that)
There will be performance changes to specific builds, some builds will have to change to come out back on top, some cases may just require play style to change a bit.
But the overall potential of the sets, that technically didn't suffer THAT much.
[/ QUOTE ]
No worries on EPS.
agreed, the peak potential is still there, possibly even a bit better in some cases. Just have to unlock it. I'm just a little concerned on my earth/fire primarily. It is perma dom on live and even with numina, miracle and perf shifter as well as the +end accolades I can still tank out before dom is up again.
I'm sure with a bit of tweaking to the build it should be ok, though I'm also a bit concerned as I prefer a full ranged attack chain and that needs lots of rech to fuel it as well.
Lots of needed rech, lots of needed end red might mean franken IO'ing rather than using sets.
Or perhaps a playstyle change to use incinerate, it is a great attack. Would make me sad as I love that earth is all ranged and so (was) fire.
Meh, if I can't get satisfactory answers through my excel, then I'll just reactivate that account.
thanks again Starsman.
Here is one thing to leverage from now on:
Perma dom will still be very useful but not as required. This means that perhaps those AoE attacks no longer need to be slotted with perma dom in mind. Unless you had a very very smart build, most perma dom builds i seen sacrifice a lot for set bonuses. Changing at least one AoE power into frankenslotting may result in an attack that has heavy endurance discount without sacrificing damage. Sure, perma dom may be lost without that one set bonus, but that one power you were spamming may jump from a 20% end redux to 95% end redux.
THAT was the real goal of all this: to make forgoing Perma Dom not look insanely stupid. Now you can still build for insane recharge while go for strong endurance discounts on your AoE powers.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure with a bit of tweaking to the build it should be ok, though I'm also a bit concerned as I prefer a full ranged attack chain and that needs lots of rech to fuel it as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Some stubborn players may disagree but the ST immob (slotted for damage) can be a good filler. It may be wasted on minions but on stronger foes (usually where people use ST damage the most) the DoT will not be wasted and if you frankenslot it properly you get great damage, strong end discount and they happen to be inherently accurate! (they have a baked in 20% acc bonus) so they require less accuracy to be useful. They also have that side bonus of making 100% sure the boss/eb/av stays at range and just cant get closer.
Edit:
Also, being stone you get an extra leverage out of that single target immob: you can slot achiles heels -res proc on it and using it to fill means you have a great chance of landing it. That is if they ever got around to make that def enhanceable, never double checked on that.
/Edit
Had an argument already with some one that claims using AoE immobs does just as well, but I am sure if you want the damage and are suffering endurance issues, thats definitively not an option.
Additionally, the Fire Snipe is no longer the suckiest thing in the block. If you have the target held, you can use that snipe for some decent DPS, so it can be added into your chain. Sure it's 20 s recharge, but it's a ranged Total Focus! With enough recharge it should be up much more often.
I appreciate the sentiment, but taking the earth st immob is not going to happen. It uses the same animation as siphon power, with the same stupid pause at the end. Numbers wise it is already longer than all the fire attacks and ingame feels considerably longer.
Unfortunately the only place you can slot an Achilles in earth is earthquake. and I have.
Fire snipe is something I'm looking at while solo, but I'd probably only cast it when FE is up. But even then when I hit FE I like to go into overdrive so sitting still and firing off a 4 second snipe (I know you can start moving after ~1.5 with int reducers in it) goes against "rage/FE" mode.
Perma dom for me was less about the +dam (though nice) and more about having aoe controls up more often, 1 shot holding everything all day, maximizing an attack chain and getting FE up over half the time. Full time complete mez protection is nice too.
For this particular toon perma dom will still rank as just as high of a necessity. Though I have been looking at some other dom builds that might not focus on that goal as much. But ultimately domination still has more draw than any other IO bonuses can offer (including softcapped def), so the draw remains just as fevered.
Overall it should be fine though, just spend a few hours tweaking and buying. Shouldn't be a huge issue. And like I said, worse case is I just start using incinerate rather than heavily changing things around.
Edit: I'm one of those stubborn players that disagrees that the immobs make good fillers on doms. They have poor dpe, slow dot damage, most players don't think to slot them for damage and doms have an entire assault set full of attacks, so it just seems wrong to feel the need to use the immob as a damage power. Especially in this case, where it has been so easy to build a full ranged attack chain out of assault powers for years now. 
[ QUOTE ]
it's a ranged Total Focus!
[/ QUOTE ]Sweet dancing jehovah.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's a ranged Total Focus!
[/ QUOTE ]Sweet dancing jehovah.
[/ QUOTE ]
In the time it takes to cast you can launch
flares>fireblast>blaze (~4.25sec arcanatime) vs 4.48 for the snipe
That is 4.95 DS vs 3.56 DS (according to the numbers TheOcho posted)
So 1.16 DS/sec vs 0.79 DS/sec
(same dpe)
You'd need some big gaps in a a fire attack chain to fit in the snipe and not be losing damage. And that is before one even considers that it is interuptable and locks you out of other powers/insp for ~4.5 sec.
It could have use as an opener to drop a minion while solo. That is a pretty limited role. Snipe for me will remain either an IO mule or possibly even removed.
Snipes still need a "bonus" value to make them worth while to use as an attack. That "bonus" might be breaking the damage rule to artificially increase their attractiveness, or it may be some other free value.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually Starsman would it be possible for you to do up one more chart demonstrating a heavily IO'd dom live vs test.
I'm thinking:
60% rech enhancement
70% hasten
80% global rech
210% rech, or 3.1 modifier.
Basically single stack perma dom with accompanied recharge levels vs that same build on test?
[/ QUOTE ]
Right now I'm assuming 50% recharge that can come from anywhere, be it slotting or set bonuses.
I can increase the number easily the question is to how much while expecting it to be realistic the used powers will be properly slotted for damage.