fixing low level invuln tankers
There are a ton of reasons why it's not done this way but mainly because of the balancing issues that toggles represent (endurance cost).
Invulnerability is not the only primary to have this problem. In fact, except for Will Power, *every* Tanker primary pretty much underwhelms before L22 (Stamina and SOs). Such is the life of the Tanker.
However you do have a valid gripe ... Tankers are painful to play in their first 20 levels or so.
Yeah, that's not gonna happen. 60% S/L resistance is about where Invuln Tankers are now, with two toggles running and a passive choice. No way are the Devs going to think it's balanced if you can get to the same point with no endurance cost.
Regardless, the toggles are the main endurance concern; the attacks are. Tanker attacks cost more than they should to execute.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
What he said.
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Yeah, that's not gonna happen. 60% S/L resistance is about where Invuln Tankers are now, with two toggles running and a passive choice. No way are the Devs going to think it's balanced if you can get to the same point with no endurance cost.
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I just made the numbers up. I don't suggest actually increasing the res. Just swapping the passive and active.
so if passive gets you to 40% and the toggle gets you to 60% that's fine.
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Yeah, that's not gonna happen. 60% S/L resistance is about where Invuln Tankers are now, with two toggles running and a passive choice. No way are the Devs going to think it's balanced if you can get to the same point with no endurance cost.
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I just made the numbers up. I don't suggest actually increasing the res. Just swapping the passive and active.
so if passive gets you to 40% and the toggle gets you to 60% that's fine.
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Except, again, it's not gonna happen. There's a design decision to have clicks > toggles > passives. To make a passive better than a toggle in a specific case, there needs to be reasoning behind it. As Kruunch mentions, the endurance issue and weak shields pre-SOs aren't native to Invuln Tankers, they can be seen on most Tankers. Because of this, creating a solution for just one Tanker set, that violates a design decision, is highly, highly unlikely to happen.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
(mind you it takes years for changes to happen that are glaringly obvious )
I've recently been running my Inv/SS Tanker exemplared (task forces for the accolade). In particular, I've spent several nights below the level I took Stamina (grabbed Knockout Blow at 20 and Stamina at 22). No Stamina, enhancement values lowered, but at least I had plenty of slots.
Sure, endurance was painful, duoing and then soloing Synapse after my teammates dropped. Without Stamina. Against end-draining clockwork. But I was pretty surprised that my defenses did so well! No set bonuses, fewer powers stacked up....my defense numbers were 3% to 5.84% def before Invincibility.
But I kept not dying.
I frequently ran low on, and out of, endurance because I was trying to do all the damage. But I was surprised at the character's ruggedness.
Tankers aren't designed to shoulder the load for damage on a six-or-seven player Task Force at low levels. Under the circumstances, I think the powersets performed pretty well. And that was an extreme example; it's not usually going to be that hard. I'm not denying what's been said about Tanker attacks being costly, I just don't see it as that severe a problem in an AT that can perform well without madly clicking its attacks.
The general weakness of low-level characters is sometimes mistaken for "problems with an AT," even by experienced players, who are used to being much more powerful. Could that be what you're experiencing, and not something AT-specific?
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Try that without SO/IOs
That's been the telling difference for me in levelling up a Tanker versus exemplaring down. When I exemplar down I always think to myself "Hey this isn't as bad as I remember it ..." and then I roll a new Tanker and I'm like "Oh yeah NOW I remember ...".
Well, you're right. Although my IOs were functioning below par, and without the set bonuses, they were still frankenslotted, and I had lots more slots, it's true. That's the weakness in my post. However, the defense numbers weren't outside the reach of a DO build, and it was primarily the not dying that got my attention.
I have a few genuine baby tanks for comparison, maybe I'd better take a look at them.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Mmmm yeah ... dunno how having more slots with enhancements that more then double DO output puts a DO build in range of an IO build (forgetting all about set bonuses for a moment).
Solo I don't have to worry about dying really ... its just the chore of running out of end constantly. In groups, dying becomes a fairly larger concern.
Is why a full group Positron TF is the toughest TF in the game ... STILL!
right - it isn't that my tanker dies
it's that he sucks wind after every fight - or during the fight.
around lvl 8 I ran into a +1 lt and a minion and ran out of End fighting them. I had to run from the lt because I could no longer fight.
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right - it isn't that my tanker dies
it's that he sucks wind after every fight - or during the fight.
around lvl 8 I ran into a +1 lt and a minion and ran out of End fighting them. I had to run from the lt because I could no longer fight.
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Again, not a problem with your armor toggles at that level, but with your attacks.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Mmmm yeah ... dunno how having more slots with enhancements that more then double DO output puts a DO build in range of an IO build
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Check your enhancement values next time you exemplar.
Low-level Invulnerability was just improved last year with the Defense Debuff in Unyielding getting removed. That made a huge difference.
What I find really helps improve low levels is slotting your attacks with lots of Accuracy, two DOs or more, so you don't waste any End missing all the time.
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Again, not a problem with your armor toggles at that level, but with your attacks.
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Agreed. But I also throw in end redux in the armor too.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Low-level Invulnerability was just improved last year with the Defense Debuff in Unyielding getting removed. That made a huge difference.
What I find really helps improve low levels is slotting your attacks with lots of Accuracy, two DOs or more, so you don't waste any End missing all the time.
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unyielding helps at 16. at 12 DO's do help. Tankers are about the only AT I actually use DO's for. They really need the to hit and dmg.
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unyielding helps at 16
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It's even better at level 8
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unyielding helps at 16
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It's even better at level 8
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sorry, thinking of invincibility (which is at 18)
unyielding I don't use much at the lower levels. I think I picked it up but I'm not positive. With MA I've been avoiding groups that mezz at the low levels.
Here's a possible solution: Get rid of all class "B" TOs and DOs. Their effects on powers are barely noticeable, and they sell for much less than a class "A" TO/DO. Just work with the base numbers for your powers, add EndRedux to toggles. Adding a DmgRes TO to a power, any power, might make you feel better, but a +3 TO adds only 1.5% res to the best res toggles out there. That means that when that 100 pt dmg attack comes at you, and you have Temp Inv up, instead of seeing the unslotted 70pts of damage, you'll see 68.5 pts of damage.
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Some recent advice I gave to a new sg mate on his Invuln tank when he was lvl 25:
2 slot- Temp Invulnerability, Unyielding, and Invincibility (use resist and def enhances only, no end reds)
single slot- resist Physical damage, any travel power
5 to 6 slot Dull Pain as early as possible.
2 slot-- Hasten or Build Up power if you have taken them.
Choose between having Health and a travel power at lvl 14. Only choose 1 travel power at lower lvls; if you don't put a travel power off longer and just use temp travel powers till later lvls. The rest of your slots should go into attacks, concentrating on acc and end red before damage.
As stated by others, your endurance woes are not caused by your toggles but by your attacks. Lesser end cost and greater acc at low lvls are more beneficial than squeezing out a drop more damage from each attack.
This is the strategy I used on my Invuln tank. In fact, I did not have any end reductions in toggles until my final build at lvl 50. And just SOs, all the way to 50 in toggles and passives. I did relent and use IO sets for Dull Pain though. If I need to get a tank for anything lvl 25 and under, I immediately think of my Invuln.
And don't forget Yin SOs. Origin doesnt usually matter to me so depending on the AT and powersets, I will use these to my benefit.
Tech-- end reduction
Science-- recharge
Magic-- accuracy
Mutation and Natural-- don't remember exactly right now but 1 is acc and the other is damage.
I'd elaborate more but there are storms moving thru my area and UPS's have been beeping at me.
Im actually happy with how invuln performs at low levels.
It's not a flashy set like some of the others but it gets the job done and the recent buffs that were done to it fixed just about every issue with the set that I had.
The only one I have left is the health crash on Unstoppable. Completely over the top and ridiculous. However once you spend a few hundred million the power becomes pretty much redundant.
In short, I think the low levels are fine and I have given up on the devs ever seeing the light and fixing the crash on unstoppable so I chose to invest in Io's and ignore the power.
*readies fire extinguisher*
Slightly off topic I believe the endurance issues you mention are not a problem of the invuln set. They exist for pretty much all tankers with the exception of will power.
That problem however does not stem from the primary armors drawing endurance. What the real problem is the massive end costs of the attacks when coupled with their relatively low damage.
A test I did recently with a low level map filled with minions. I ran a few different tanks through it up to level 6. Even heavily slotting the attacks and running no armors I was sucking end in the first or second mob. I couldnt even bear to finish the map.
I tried a Fire Devices blaster at it. No end issues and destroyed stuff in relatively short order. Finished the map in no time. Yes I did also have to slot the attacks with end reduction to do so but even doing so on the tank it still accomplished nothing.
I also did the same thing with a scrapper, and a defender. Again minimal end issues. I did not mess around with a controler, I belive the end costs to their powers is also too high.
Not entirely sure why I did this. I was in the mood to create some characters today and felt like messing around with tanks. These issues are not really anything new to me. Simply was bored and messing around to see which one was more low level friendly. Endurance was pretty much terrible on all of them. Oh well back to brutes.
*readies fire extinguisher*
A couple points Vicar:
<ul type="square">[*]Blasters will always be hyper efficient at low levels because of defiance. The mobs are balanced expecting players to have minimal damage enhancement, but Defiance gives them quite a bit of it.
Sup point - Fire Blast is arguably the most end efficient set. Flares only costs 70.3% of what it should, and Fire Blast/Ball have bonus dots that aren't counted against their end costs.
[*]At that level, Tankers deal 8% more damage than Defenders do, so I have no idea how you were having less issues on the Defender compared to your Tank. Which sets did the Defender have?[/list]
Do you recall which sets you used for the different Tankers? Also, which enemies were you fighting?
If you're in Mids and open up the power graph window (ctrl+G) you can take a look at a few things including damage/endurance of attacks.
Personally I tend to put end redux in my attacks and my toggles with an added acc in the attacks until I get to lvl 22 and SO's. I will slot DO's as I get them, but the percentage bonus' aren't high enough for me to justify spending the inf. I'd rather sell the TO's and DO's to make it easier to buy the SO's when I can.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I haven't played a tanker in awhile and I am starting an invuln/mace.
Low level tanking is still painful - your resistance is low and your endurance is terrible. Sure you get great later on, but the teens are a chore.
There is an easy fix that would make the low level much better, give tankers more flexibility, but not make them more powerful - switch the resistance on the passive and toggles.
Making numbers up (I'm at work, shhh) - passive resist is 10% (goes to 30% with slotting), active is 20% (goes to 60% with slotting).
Make passive 20%. Now with 0 End cost you get 20% reduction. End problem is gone and you have some resistance.
When you slot up you get 60% resistance with 0 end cost. Which is nice for soloing.
If you choose to turn on the toggle you +30% res. Now numbers wise this is half as much - but effects are greater.
100 dmg vs 60% res = 40 dmg gets through
100 dmg vs 90% res = 10 dmg gets through
So you can run around with passives getting decent resistance, or turn on your toggle to take 1/4 as much damage.
That makes having your toggle on or off a real choice when soloing. Instead of now where your passive is only useful when stacked with your toggle, so your toggle is a necessity and the passive (which you can't turn off) is optional.