Regeneration
Would like that. The few times you are hit with -regen it normally brings your only damage mitgation from its peak to 0. If it were in fast healing then it would probably also cross to WP (not an issue IMO since that set could use more -regen resist as well)
I would expect if it were to be added there would be some in Fast healing, a little more in integration and more in resilience
I'd go with integration or more likely resilience. I think this is more important with MArc now because i've been in several missions where i have to plan to take down bosses because i know they are going to floor my regen and make me a moot point. I've also been in fights with rads...which were just gruesome. Then thematically having -regen resistance makes sense, a being whose sole purpose is to heal from all wounds would be able to retain some of that even when facing opponents that target that aspect.
As to why resilience over integration resilience isn't all that great slotted it's only 10% resistance now it shouldn't be capping resistance but it's really only shaving damage off rather than resisting it. I would also imagine that resist enh would add to the resist -regen buff.
Integration already has a lot going for it between the mez resist and primary healing power (since the IH change to click) Fast healing i can see, but if the -reg resist buff is affectable by enh then i wouldn't want to have to debate slotting fast healing with resist or healing.
Of course spreading it out isn't so bad either...a little in int and FH then a enhancable portion in resilience. The question really is, "Has it been long enough since 'the great debuff' for regens to get a buff?" Even as relatively mild as this one?
Roxy On DA...Finally!
SR gets a metric butt-ton of defense debuff resistance. It's only fair that regen (and to a lesser degree, Willpower) get regen debuff resistance.
I like the idea of spreading it out between Fast Healing, Integration, and Resilience. That way the Fast Healing one would carry over to Willpower, which should be enough because WP has defense and resistance as well. While Regen gets the bulk of it in the other two powers. I'd say a flat 10-15% resistance in Fast Healing and Integration, and enhanceable resistance in Resilience. To make it worthwhile I would double or even triple the amount of regen resistance in relation to damage resistance in Resilience.
So, if you have Resilience slotted to 7% damage resistance that would translate to 21% regen debuff resistance.
Would that be acceptable to you guys?
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
That sounds like a good idea, I sent a message to Castle outlining the idea of giving regeneration some resistance to debuffs. Hopefully he will take the idea and run with it.
Also I would like to see Fast Healing have similar debuff resistance as Will Powers, 26%.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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I agree that if this were added it would be a great place to make resilience shine.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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SR gets a metric butt-ton of defense debuff resistance. It's only fair that regen (and to a lesser degree, Willpower) get regen debuff resistance.
I like the idea of spreading it out between Fast Healing, Integration, and Resilience. That way the Fast Healing one would carry over to Willpower, which should be enough because WP has defense and resistance as well. While Regen gets the bulk of it in the other two powers. I'd say a flat 10-15% resistance in Fast Healing and Integration, and enhanceable resistance in Resilience. To make it worthwhile I would double or even triple the amount of regen resistance in relation to damage resistance in Resilience.
So, if you have Resilience slotted to 7% damage resistance that would translate to 21% regen debuff resistance.
Would that be acceptable to you guys?
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i agree with this entirely - but the 23% regen debuff resistance in wp is hardly noticeable. any mob that will debuff your regen will simply shut it off completely.
regen and wp scrappers are lucky. they dont have to fight long bow spec ops in nearly every mission 40+. long bow spec ops shut down regen. (-4.6%) or arachnoids who all spit out the /poison mm version of envenom.
I know the level 20ish final vahzilok arc SUCKED on my dm/regen. I mean, after part 1 I had zero regen for an entire freaking mission. That is soo not cool. Having to rely in dull pain and reconstruction entirely cause the rest of your secondary got shut down isn't fun.
Although, this would also neuter /poison's capability to deal with regeners entirely. And /poison is really a regen scrapper's only true bane from the villains. Sure villains get more -regen powers, but none really hold a candle IMO to /poison's reliable -regen, -heal, and -special.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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QR
I agree that if this were added it would be a great place to make resilience shine.
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/seconded.
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
The problem that I foresee is that there needs to be enough demand for Castle to really take notice, until then this will stay as a back burner issue.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
The stated reason that */wp has regen debuff resistance and */regen doesn't is that */regen has click heals to get it through periods of regen debuffs whereas */wp doesn't. Castle actually told us this.
Of course, I still think it's annoying that Castle designed a defensive powerset around doing what */regen used to do and was considered too strong for doing, namely, stacking multiple methods of damage mitigation with absurd levels of damage recovery. Couple that with */wp having greater levels of debuff resistance and greater scope of mez protection and it just gets worse.
Honestly, I don't really care about */regen getting regen debuff resistance any more. Castle has effectively made it so that */regen no longer finds much use from regeneration. */Regen is all about the clickies now.
The bigger concern for me is recharge debuffing. No other set in the game has quite the same weakness to such a common (and stackable) debuff type. When it was determined that */SR was inordinately affected by def debuffs, it got loads of def debuff resistance (along with every other def based set out there). */Regen has a similar weakness to recharge debuffs but, because it's assumed that you're going to allow each of your click powers to recharge when you're not fighting, it's not really factored in. */Regen does fine for short fights but as soon as the fight lasts longer than a single recharge of MoG, you're going to be feeling a lot of pain, especially if recharge debuffs are quadrupling the recharge of all of your powers.
I've sent Castle a couple pms concerning giving */regen some debuff resistance, giving reasons ranging from "everyone else has some form of debuff resistance" to "it's exactly like def debuffs to */sr" to "it would give people reason to take Resilience beyond a Steadfast Protection mule". I never got a response, but, then again, I'm reasonably sure that Castle is perfectly happy where */Regen is, even if it is the set most severely affected by debuffs and is generally easily outclassed by */WP if you consider average player skill and SO slotting. It doesn't help that */WP can manage better average regeneration than */Regen can even though it's the very effect */Regen is named for (658.273% +regen w/o Health v. 682% +regen w/o Health and 7 targets for RttC).
I seriously doubt Castle will ever address it because, like it or not, the devs use data mine many players take a power or power set as one of the primary tools to determine if a power/set needs fixing and */regen is one of the more popular sets simply because it's one of the more famous comic book super powers.
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The stated reason that */wp has regen debuff resistance and */regen doesn't is that */regen has click heals to get it through periods of regen debuffs whereas */wp doesn't. Castle actually told us this.
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Well, WP has +res and +def , so I'm calling bupkis on that one. I don't doubt that he said it, to clarify. I just don't agree with his sentiment.
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Of course, I still think it's annoying that Castle designed a defensive powerset around doing what */regen used to do and was considered too strong for doing, namely, stacking multiple methods of damage mitigation with absurd levels of damage recovery. Couple that with */wp having greater levels of debuff resistance and greater scope of mez protection and it just gets worse.
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Now, to be fair, Regen didn't stack stuff. At most, it would stack Tough+Weave and maybe CJ. Not really "stacking" anything there. It ran IH constantly. You never even took the clickies, except Dull Pain because it helped buff your regen from IH. :P The only thing it "stacked" was regen through Health+FH+IH.
Aside from that, yeah. I agree with your post. I always wonder what people are thinking when they say "Regen needs -regen res!" No, it needs SLOW res. And a good chunk of it. But apparently Castle disagrees.
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Of course, I still think it's annoying that Castle designed a defensive powerset around doing what */regen used to do and was considered too strong for doing, namely, stacking multiple methods of damage mitigation with absurd levels of damage recovery. Couple that with */wp having greater levels of debuff resistance and greater scope of mez protection and it just gets worse.
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Now, to be fair, Regen didn't stack stuff. At most, it would stack Tough+Weave and maybe CJ. Not really "stacking" anything there. It ran IH constantly. You never even took the clickies, except Dull Pain because it helped buff your regen from IH. :P The only thing it "stacked" was regen through Health+FH+IH.
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Actually, many of us who did completely unwholesome things with */regen did it by layering gobs of other defensive mechanisms on top of IH as possible. Very few "top end" builds (which, compared to now, were largely laughable in that they were generally completely by level 40) didn't stack as many forms of +res and +def as possible. You could get plenty of survivability from IH, but if you really wanted to push the envelop beyond where the devs intended (at least past where they intended with the first few */regen nerfs), you slotted up Resilience, Tough, Weave, CJ, and anything else you could get your hands on.
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Aside from that, yeah. I agree with your post. I always wonder what people are thinking when they say "Regen needs -regen res!" No, it needs SLOW res. And a good chunk of it. But apparently Castle disagrees.
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Slow isn't what you're thinking of, or, if it is, it isn't exactly what you're thinking. Slow, as you're using it, is actually recharge debuff. Slow effects, as most people use it, are either the movement debuff (like with Hot Feet and Quicksand) or the combination of movement and recharge debuff (like with the Ice Blasts). I don't really care whether */regen gets any movement debuff resistance. In fact, I don't even think it really applies. However, */regen needs recharge debuff resistance bad, and I've been saying so for a long time (re: since adding debuff resistance to sets was actually considered).
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Actually, many of us who did completely unwholesome things with */regen did it by layering gobs of other defensive mechanisms on top of IH as possible. Very few "top end" builds (which, compared to now, were largely laughable in that they were generally completely by level 40) didn't stack as many forms of +res and +def as possible. You could get plenty of survivability from IH, but if you really wanted to push the envelop beyond where the devs intended (at least past where they intended with the first few */regen nerfs), you slotted up Resilience, Tough, Weave, CJ, and anything else you could get your hands on.
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I did forget Resilience, yeah. But I still don't really consider it "layering." Back then, there wasn't as much you could use to layer things. It really does count as layering, I suppose. It's just hard to think of it that way given how drastically IOs have changed the idea. :P
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Slow isn't what you're thinking of, or, if it is, it isn't exactly what you're thinking. Slow, as you're using it, is actually recharge debuff. Slow effects, as most people use it, are either the movement debuff (like with Hot Feet and Quicksand) or the combination of movement and recharge debuff (like with the Ice Blasts). I don't really care whether */regen gets any movement debuff resistance. In fact, I don't even think it really applies. However, */regen needs recharge debuff resistance bad, and I've been saying so for a long time (re: since adding debuff resistance to sets was actually considered).
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Yeah, I meant recharge resistance. They're the exact same to me, so I always use them interchangeably. I believe that's how the game mechanics work as well. Anything the provides "slow resistance" provides protection against recharge debuffs and movement speed debuffs (Winter's Gift unique, Quickness, Temperature Protection, etc).
Hi . . . I have been with the COX franchise since its incepetion, I was a beta tester for both COH and COV. I am not the biggest personality on the forums, I don't have a 1000 posts, but I do frequent the forums quite a bit and put my 2 infl in where I can. Since the beginning I always wanted to play a Claws/Regen character, probably a lot of people did, b/c of Wolverine. I enjoyed how great Regen WAS. Now; however, regen is a glimmer of its former self. I would like you to fix this in some way. I mean, it is still highly chosen, but not b/c of its effecitve ness, but b/c of its popularity in association with Wolverine. Do some data mining and see if more */Regen whatevers were made after the X-Men Wolverine Origins came out. The sad thing to me is Will Power gets you more Regen than Regen does. Will Power is one of those powers that is highly regarded as put it in place and forget about it. Unfortunately people playing regen have to be click masters to stay alive, and it shouldn't be that way. I always found Regen to be sort of SILLY in that respect. Oh, no, I am takeing to much damage, oh wait, all of a sudden my Regen is getting stronger and healing more. What? How does that make since? Regen is Regen it should regen the same. It shouldn't be the more damage I take the more I have to click heals, it should be, It takes more damage to hurt me, to take me past the threshold of my regen, so my regen can't keep up, untill there is a break in the incoming damage. Dull pain is good becuase that can sort of be explalined. My point is Regen shouldn't be one of the most ACTIVE protectons sets, it should be very similar to WP, a fire and forget. And for the love of all things regen make it more regenable than WP. Talk to some other well knowns about regen, ask there opininons. Maybe ya'll can change the way regen works, improve it's regen, make IH a toggle again. That way we don't have to depend on those click heals to stay alive, you just depend on managing the damage coming in versus your damage regened. Help us originals get back to the Moment of Glory days, when Regen was awesome and taken because of that and not so much because regen was popular due to a small, rogh around the edges Canadian with claws. Thanks for the time you took to read or skim through this.
I sent this to a couple of people to reach Castle, since I couldn't PM him directly. Hopefully, you can piggy back this with your own message of what you'd like or for change, get a petition going for Regen CHANGE.
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The stated reason that */wp has regen debuff resistance and */regen doesn't is that */regen has click heals to get it through periods of regen debuffs whereas */wp doesn't. Castle actually told us this.
Of course, I still think it's annoying that Castle designed a defensive powerset around doing what */regen used to do and was considered too strong for doing, namely, stacking multiple methods of damage mitigation with absurd levels of damage recovery. Couple that with */wp having greater levels of debuff resistance and greater scope of mez protection and it just gets worse.
Honestly, I don't really care about */regen getting regen debuff resistance any more. Castle has effectively made it so that */regen no longer finds much use from regeneration. */Regen is all about the clickies now.
The bigger concern for me is recharge debuffing. No other set in the game has quite the same weakness to such a common (and stackable) debuff type. When it was determined that */SR was inordinately affected by def debuffs, it got loads of def debuff resistance (along with every other def based set out there). */Regen has a similar weakness to recharge debuffs but, because it's assumed that you're going to allow each of your click powers to recharge when you're not fighting, it's not really factored in. */Regen does fine for short fights but as soon as the fight lasts longer than a single recharge of MoG, you're going to be feeling a lot of pain, especially if recharge debuffs are quadrupling the recharge of all of your powers.
I've sent Castle a couple pms concerning giving */regen some debuff resistance, giving reasons ranging from "everyone else has some form of debuff resistance" to "it's exactly like def debuffs to */sr" to "it would give people reason to take Resilience beyond a Steadfast Protection mule". I never got a response, but, then again, I'm reasonably sure that Castle is perfectly happy where */Regen is, even if it is the set most severely affected by debuffs and is generally easily outclassed by */WP if you consider average player skill and SO slotting. It doesn't help that */WP can manage better average regeneration than */Regen can even though it's the very effect */Regen is named for (658.273% +regen w/o Health v. 682% +regen w/o Health and 7 targets for RttC).
I seriously doubt Castle will ever address it because, like it or not, the devs use data mine many players take a power or power set as one of the primary tools to determine if a power/set needs fixing and */regen is one of the more popular sets simply because it's one of the more famous comic book super powers.
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The only way to get a developer to address and issue is to get a lot of people to complain about the same issues, look at Invulnerability. It took a metric ton of complaining for Castle to finally look at why it was doing so poorly. So the solution would be is to continue to fill this thread with reasons of why it should be addressed. Otherwise Regeneration will sit as a second stringer.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Oh, good lord. Will old Regen DIE already?
Regen has been a click set for a VERY long time now. How many YEARS has it been? I've long since gotten used to it, and with the clicks being the difference between it and Willpower. Please do not change the entire nature of the set AGAIN just because you're nostalgic for the good old days.
To be sure, I loved old Regen. I was very mad when they nerfed it over and over and then changed the entire nature of the set. But I MOVED ON. I adapted and overcame. The set now is what it is, and I'm happy with what it is. And if you want to play something closer to old Regen, PLAY WILLPOWER.
I won't object to a minor Regen buff such as regen debuff resistance and/or recharge debuff resistance. Although I feel that Regen is just as good as other sets in capable hands, I'm coming around to thinking that it should be as good as other sets in average hands, and thus perhaps better than other sets in very capable hands. But I'm not pushing for the buff either. Regen is fine either way.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Oh, good lord. Will old Regen DIE already?
Regen has been a click set for a VERY long time now. How many YEARS has it been? I've long since gotten used to it, and with the clicks being the difference between it and Willpower. Please do not change the entire nature of the set AGAIN just because you're nostalgic for the good old days.
To be sure, I loved old Regen. I was very mad when they nerfed it over and over and then changed the entire nature of the set. But I MOVED ON. I adapted and overcame. The set now is what it is, and I'm happy with what it is. And if you want to play something closer to old Regen, PLAY WILLPOWER.
I won't object to a minor Regen buff such as regen debuff resistance and/or recharge debuff resistance. Although I feel that Regen is just as good as other sets in capable hands, I'm coming around to thinking that it should be as good as other sets in average hands, and thus perhaps better than other sets in very capable hands. But I'm not pushing for the buff either. Regen is fine either way.
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Not to be a complete blashphemer by disagreeing with Werner, but I disagree with you :P. Personally I'd be happyier if they just renamed it. Regen doesn't even use the regen game mechanic to survive much anymore, call it super recovery pill popper or something, that's closer to what it is.
*for the record I never played regen in it's old state, nor do I really think it's a bad set now, it just grates on my brain*
-Hesh
38 FF/Sonic Def
35 Ill/Storm
35 DM/Regen
1 pan of fresh brownies/gallon of milk
Well, I agree that it's so different from its original conception that it would be better off with another name, like spaz clicky healy set, but no matter how many PMs I send to the devs, they haven't started using that name.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Oh lord, I realized I actually wrote "happyier"...
-Hesh
38 FF/Sonic Def
35 Ill/Storm
35 DM/Regen
1 pan of fresh brownies/gallon of milk
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The bigger concern for me is recharge debuffing. No other set in the game has quite the same weakness to such a common (and stackable) debuff type.
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Dark armor. To slows, or -to hit.
What do I win?
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
A free DA scrapper.
I kid, if you want one you can't have mine.
After reading this I both agree and disagree with the sentiments expressed.
Regen does not need regen debuff resistance, and regen does not need recharge debuff resistance.
It needs BOTH.
The way my claws/regen is built, I don't have to hit my heals very often in normal missions (solo, on Tenacious) my other mitigation and natural regen usually see me through just fine. Once I start getting hit with -regen or -recharge I'm in trouble. If I get hit with both I'm a dead man. You'd be surprised how many enemy groups have both debuffs available to them.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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A free DA scrapper.
I kid, if you want one you can't have mine.
After reading this I both agree and disagree with the sentiments expressed.
Regen does not need regen debuff resistance, and regen does not need recharge debuff resistance.
It needs BOTH.
The way my claws/regen is built, I don't have to hit my heals very often in normal missions (solo, on Tenacious) my other mitigation and natural regen usually see me through just fine. Once I start getting hit with -regen or -recharge I'm in trouble. If I get hit with both I'm a dead man. You'd be surprised how many enemy groups have both debuffs available to them.
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Not before Dark armor gets them.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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The bigger concern for me is recharge debuffing. No other set in the game has quite the same weakness to such a common (and stackable) debuff type.
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Dark armor. To slows, or -to hit.
What do I win?
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Actually, nothing. You're pretty wrong.
While recharging their 4 click powers, */regen only has Integration, Fast Healing, and Resilience. That's not really much. While recharging its one click power, */DA still has all of its shields for 22.5% resistance unenhanced and CoF/OG, which are going to provide a good deal more mitigation than 13 hp/sec unenhanced. It doesn't help your argument that Dark Regeneration recharges twice as fast as Reconstruction, so there is actually less time lost from recharge debuffs.
As to tohit debuffs, */DA still has its shields. */Regen still just has Integration, Fast Healing, and Resilience when affected by recharge debuffs.
I've actually played both DA and Regen to 50. DA isn't nearly as negatively affected by slows as you seem to claim, and I never felt particularly endangered by tohit debuffs (mainly because all the damage coming at me at that point is negative energy, which is laughable).
DA also gets a small amount of defense in cloak of darkness and it also has endurance drain resistance.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Why is it that a set that is high dependent on it's ability to regeneration has no regeneration resistance?
Is there any hope of Regeneration obtaining such resistance?
What powers would this resistance be applied to?
I think that Resilience would be a good power to place it or in Fast Healing.
Input?
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread