Making a FF Proposal, need some input first.
By
AWRocketman,
Posted on: 2009-05-25 12:06 in Defenders
I hate cold dom and i really hate cold dom when out of nowhere i get some huge ice armor beamed on my toon. I hate that frozen armor and it stays on forever. Bubbles rule cause they are mostly see through 
Personally, I find FF to be completely and totally fine where it is. FF/* might not provide the same debuff punch, but, just because you choose not to use all of the other indirect methods for keeping your team alive (knockback, knockdown, repel, onlyAffectSelf), doesn't mean that it needs changes. Personally, I think that the extra 5% +def and the mez protection that FF/* provide make up for any lack of debuffs or other functionality.
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Personally, I find FF to be completely and totally fine where it is. FF/* might not provide the same debuff punch, but, just because you choose not to use all of the other indirect methods for keeping your team alive (knockback, knockdown, repel, onlyAffectSelf), doesn't mean that it needs changes. Personally, I think that the extra 5% +def and the mez protection that FF/* provide make up for any lack of debuffs or other functionality.
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Maybe this is heresy, but I think FF could use a little more of a nudge in the offense direction, though I wouldn't want that to come at the expense of mitigation. I don't know exactly what I would want, but it wouldn't be much.
For example, I think giving FF an AoE -30% damage resistance debuff would be going too far. I think that would be broken. I don't know what other alternatives are left, though. Maybe give Force Bolt the Repulsion Bomb treatment? More damage, KD, longer recharge?
I don't think I'd like that change, though. Force Bolt has a purpose already, and changing it to KD or making the recharge longer would drastically alter that.
I guess this is stupid to say, considering my long post, but I just don't know what I would do to FF. I think it could use a little more punch, but I have no idea how to get that punch in a way that makes sense.
Bye, everybody!
*Champion*
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So, I'm writing up a proposal on how to bring some small tweaks to FF to bring it more in line with the other Defender primaries. In my opinion, there are two ways to do this. Either make it the undisputed champion for bringing mitigation to the table or up its offensive capabilities.
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FF is all ready the undisputed champion for bringing mitigation to the table. With just SO's and adding in Manuvers a FF defender can soft cap the defenses of any team mate that stays with in 25 feet.
Doing the above gives the FF defender ~21% defense to all positions. The Coldfender is only going to be running around with about 12% all things being equal. It's extremely easy for a FF defender to soft cap ranged and AoE defense using IO set bonuses and then just hover out of melee range.
You may have forgotten that Dispersion Bubble grants everyone within it including the defender mag -8.65 protection to Hold, Stun, and Immoblize. Coldfenders don't have this ability.
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A couple things I've brainstormed so far are:
Adding a small amount of +Res to the bubbles, including the big one. Something along the lines of 5 - 7.5 unslotted, per. At 5 unslotted, with all three bubbles protecting and slotted for Resistance, you'd get ~22 Resist all. Not bad.
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Most people don't realize it but there is all ready some resistances built into the grantable bubbles.
Deflection Shield has a 40% resistance to toxic damage built into it and Insulation Shield has an 86.5% resistance to endurance drains built into it.
The FF defender has quite a bit of resistance available in Personal Force field. (40% to all but toxic.) The nice thing about it is all you have to do is watch your icon tray. When too many incoming attacks are showing you can simply toggle PFF on until they resolve.
The defense has to be active when the attack is rolled to be considered but resistances aren't calculated until the damage is actually applied. This gives experienced FFers 2 panic buttons in one power since the resistance can be toggled on and is effective even after the to hit rolls have been made.
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Also adding +10%Damage would go a long way to upping the sets offensive capabilities. However, this just focuses on the bubbles which most FFers already use.
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Since I take Manuvers taking Assault is a logical next step. That's an 18.8% damage boost in the hands of a defender that applies to both the defender and team mates.
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I was thinking that Force Bolt could benefit, without being overpowered, from a fairly long duration, Mag 1 Stun being assoicated with the power. It makes sense that getting knocked around a bunch would eventually cause you to be disoriented.
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I'm more of the opinion that a power that has a mag 18.7 KB should do quite a bit more damage (smashing of course) than 7.23 unenhanced at level 50. Equivalent damage to that of Power Bolt (Mag 1.45 KB dealing 36.1 for the unenhanced level 50 defender version) would not be out of line and would give the set the offensive capabilities that it is lacking.
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I was thinking that Repulsion Bomb (is that the name? Sorry, no mids on this computer) could also use a damage buff. I don't think it'd be overpowering at all to make it into a very decent AoE attack.
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Repulsion Bomb got a buff recently. It had it's KB changed into KD and its damage is now 36.1 unenhanced at level 50. It is also one of the last, if not the last, TAoE power that doesn't have a target cap and it has a very nice 40% chance to do a Mag 2 stun.
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I was also toying around with the idea of suggesting some -Def and maybe -Res for those repelled back by the Force Bubble.
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The probem with Force Bubble that makes it too situational is it's radius. The power is radius 50 which means that any melee toons (keep in mind that Scrappers and Tanks aren't the only melee focused toons/power sets in the game) on your team are fighting on the outside edge of Force Bubble which puts them out of the range of the defense provided by Dispersion Bubble. It also means that these mobs are going to be outside the range of many of the available defender secondary powers (especially tier 3 heavy hitters) so you are limiting your own ability to do damage when you run the power.
The best fix that I could think of for Force Bubble would be to decrease it's radius to 20 feet. It would give the defender more control of where they are pushing mobs, especially on indoor maps, it means that melee toons would still be fighting inside Dispersion Bubble, and the defender will still be in range to use all secondary powers (including the nukes) with only the exceptions of Short Circuit and Irradiate.
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Anyway, I'd love to hear some input on what everyone else thinks would improve FF without bringing it into the realm of overpowered. (Well, at least compared to other defender primaries.)
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You just did
IMO the best thing that the devs could do for the FF defender (and all defenders that prevent incoming damage rather than repair it) is to rework Vigilence so it provides the same level of benefits no matter what primary or secondary you choose to play.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
OP said:
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What I mean is that Cold brings similar defense values to the table
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It does? I have a vague memory of it bringing "not nearly as much" but I don't recall the numbers offhand.
To be fair, "maneuvers" is not technically part of Force Fields, but considering FF + Maneuvers is at the Defense softcap, and only 5% off softcap is half the mitigation... doesn't take very far off in numbers to be very far off in results.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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OP said:
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What I mean is that Cold brings similar defense values to the table
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It does? I have a vague memory of it bringing "not nearly as much" but I don't recall the numbers offhand.
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FF brings 25% baseline +def (15 from shields, 10 from bubble). Cold brings 20% baseline +def (15 from shields, 5% from fog). Also, something to keep in mind, is that bubble provides global +def whereas fog just provides positional.
To get enhanced numbers, just multiply by 1.6. FF gives 40%. Cold gives 32.
I kind of like the idea of Force Fields only getting additive damage boosts (ie extra attacks) rather than multiplicative ones like most Defenders.
Repulsion Bomb is already a decent AoE attack, its lthe same damage as say Explosive Blast. Its a bit slower to recharge and has a slow (and IMHO dumb-looking) animation, but its otherwise good.
I'd suggest Force Bolt getting upped to scalar 1 damage, ie as much as Power Bolt, XRay Eyes, Ice Bolt and all the other tier 1 attacks. Im not madly keen on adding a stun. Force Fields shine when the enemies are not mezzed, but are missing you anyway.
I also think it should retain its status as the best Defence and poorest offence set. Its biggest advantage over Cold is the mez protection and extra Defence from Dispersion Bubble.
If I were to boost the set in any other way, it would be some small bonus to the Defender's own protection. Maybe buffs to Repulsion Field (+5% vs Melee) and Force Bubble (+5% vs Ranged and AoE).
That would give the Defender themselves a very solid 15% Defence (24% when slotted) to work from. Currently, self defence for a Force Fielder falls into the crackpot expensive build category (see my guide). Its been extended a little into the mainstream with some recent IO changes (Blessing of the Zephyr. Thunderstrike, Aegis), but it would be nice for this to become part of the standard approach to the set.
A little bit of Resistance in the shields wouldn't hurt I guess. Not too much, but along the lines you suggested.
And I agree with Cosmic Thunderer. The cold shields obscure the recipient's costume way too much.
Hmmm.... I knew I created this thread for a reason...
Try to make use of it, it's already got hours and hours of people's time and effort invested into it, and the link goes to the latest "consolidation" update so you don't have to read the whole DAMN thing.
What most important, however, is that that thread is saved from the forum purge and Castle has the URL saved for further reference.
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Also, something to keep in mind, is that bubble provides global +def whereas fog just provides positional.
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Something that irks me a lot, because steamy mist, a power that's almost the same, gives defense to all types. Psionic attackers hurt.
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Hmmm.... I knew I created this thread for a reason...
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You need to update your consolidated list. Repulsion Bomb does do the damage of a Tier 1 attack now. And I don't see any reference to adding Defense Debuff Resistance to the bubbles. I know that's been suggested.
Defensively speaking, I think the DefDebuff Res is all FF really needs. Where it lags behind sets like Dark and Rad is in its offensive capability. It doesn't need to have a constant damage boost, Dark has an occasional one with Tar Patch (and that can be made perma) and that does just fine.
The problem is finding a place to put it. Force Bolt, if overused, can disrupt a battle, and Force Bubble as currently designed forces foes outside of the area of any debuffs it might apply. Maybe FF could take a cue from Pain Domination and apply damage buffs to the caster? The problem with just adding damage to FF "attacks" is that unless you can make the attack while continuing to use your normal chain, you have simply substituted one attack for another. You have done nothing to boost the Defender's damage.
An End/Recovery boost might help offensively as well, although with Vigilance that would be more of a help solo than on a team to the Defender himself. (Controllers and Corruptors could make use of it, though, as could the rest of the team if it is AoE)
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I hate cold dom and i really hate cold dom when out of nowhere i get some huge ice armor beamed on my toon. I hate that frozen armor and it stays on forever. Bubbles rule cause they are mostly see through
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*grabs cold dom, frozen armors you and runs* :P
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
Castle won't, at this point, add anything new to FF. He just ... won't. At five years in, what is in FF now is what will be in FF when the servers go dark. He might twiddle some numbers (like he did with Repulsion Bomb), or ask for an animation to be changed, but that's it.
That's not to say he's happy with FF -- he probably isn't. The set has too many powers that are easily skipped. And it has too few powers that benefit from heavy slotting. And, frankly, it has a surprising number of powers that are generally counter-productive.
At this point, we should simply be grateful that this isn't I6, the buffs work surprisingly well, and we have a rather decent T8 power.
I think the devs could've done a FAR better job with FF 5.5 years ago, but that's water under the bridge.
But ...
If we could turn back the clock ...
1.) Defender sets should've been mathematically balanced against each other. They weren't. And, as far as we know, they never have been. IIRC, even Arcanaville has called the this task "non-trivial".
2.) FF shouldn't have been balanced with "fun" and "theme" in mind. The Final Three + Detention Field should've been tested far more rigorously to ensure they actually increase performance instead of aggravation.
3.) We should've had a variant of Conserve Power. It's thematic, ups offensive performance without directly increasing damage output, and is a kind of buff otherwise not grantable by a defender (unless I'm mistaken, which I could be).
4.) Force Bubble's one of the goofiest powers the devs ever designed. It's nucking futs to think that the single target heavy hitters, like Cosmic Burst, don't have the base range to reach out FB's edge (and they've had their range /doubled/ since release). And don't get me started about PBAoEs. It should've been a giant slow, -recharge power. The end result would've been the same as the crock o' horse crap we ended up with (reduce the amount of incoming damage, make it hard for mobs to reach melee), but it would've been wrapped up in a widely useful power.
But that's just me.
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If I were to boost the set in any other way, it would be some small bonus to the Defender's own protection.
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I think this is essential to making sonic, cold, and FF truly shine. We're defenders, not martyrs, and frankly these three sets need some help in the solo department - allowing our own buffs to work on us seems like a no-brainer. As it stands, these three sets are pretty niche. And yep I have one of each. FF is boring, Sonic is ugly, and Cold matures so late - compared to some of the other defense sets, they're seriously lacking in PUNCH. Numbers only carry them so far.
Sonic is ugly?
I ask Sonic defenders to turn their Sonic Dispersion ON in Wentworths!
Dispersion's the reason I rolled a Sonic/ tbh. And I like Disruption Field also. But Barrier and Haven.. please just no. I love orange, but most people don't. Even aside from that, the set needs some help in the fun department. Clarity could use a heal component, Siphon needs to be a cone, Repulsion needs to be deleted, Liquefy needs to be so much earlier in the set. Cold's got some of the same eyesore problems, and an even worse problem in that it's too long a slog to get to the good stuff. End-loaded sets just aren't as popular.
Blah. But this was a FF-proposal thread, sorry. I'd like to see all of the bubble sets get love. Would help combat the general perception that they're inferior to restore-health sets, however incorrect that perception might presently be.
since both ff and cold have the same defense values, i think the ff shields could use substantial def debuff resistance to make them more attractive.
i've got a 5 year old 41 ff/rad defender i'd love to play again
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since both ff and cold have the same defense values
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They don't. Get your information correct please.
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4.) Force Bubble's one of the goofiest powers the devs ever designed. It's nucking futs to think that the single target heavy hitters, like Cosmic Burst, don't have the base range to reach out FB's edge
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It's my believe that Force Bubble was the devs' attempt to create a "Wall of Force" power, a barrier that foes could not penetrate that could be used as a shield by the team. Unfortunately, there is no such barrier, and thus the mechanism of repel had to be used in its stead.
Therefore, because of the speed of movement of most foes, the time between tics of the repel, and the possibility that a foe may be resistant, it has to have such a huge radius because that is the only way to ensure it will keep foes out of its center 99% of the time. This is, to my mind, the largest flaw with the concept. (Now, if it slowed foes trying to enter it, it could be a smaller radius...)
I agree that Castle would never introduce any major changes, but minor tweaks, like adding DefDebuff resistance to the existing bubbles, shouldn't cause any "cottages".
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4.) Force Bubble's one of the goofiest powers the devs ever designed. It's nucking futs to think that the single target heavy hitters, like Cosmic Burst, don't have the base range to reach out FB's edge
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It's my believe that Force Bubble was the devs' attempt to create a "Wall of Force" power, a barrier that foes could not penetrate that could be used as a shield by the team. Unfortunately, there is no such barrier, and thus the mechanism of repel had to be used in its stead.
Therefore, because of the speed of movement of most foes, the time between tics of the repel, and the possibility that a foe may be resistant, it has to have such a huge radius because that is the only way to ensure it will keep foes out of its center 99% of the time. This is, to my mind, the largest flaw with the concept. (Now, if it slowed foes trying to enter it, it could be a smaller radius...)
I agree that Castle would never introduce any major changes, but minor tweaks, like adding DefDebuff resistance to the existing bubbles, shouldn't cause any "cottages".
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I do remember reading that about the force wall concept in a dev post (I think one of Castle's) at one time or another.
Cutting Force bubble's radius to 20 and doubling the frequency at which it ticks "should" provide much the same repel protection to the squishies as the current version. It would also have the added benefit of allowing the melee preferring players to benefit from both Force Bubble and Dispersion Bubble rather than be annoyed by one and no longer protected by the other.
Only the force fielder would incur much additional risk as the other squishies could be further behind the FFer rather than in front of the FFer.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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4.) Force Bubble's one of the goofiest powers the devs ever designed. It's nucking futs to think that the single target heavy hitters, like Cosmic Burst, don't have the base range to reach out FB's edge
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It's my believe that Force Bubble was the devs' attempt to create a "Wall of Force" power, a barrier that foes could not penetrate that could be used as a shield by the team. Unfortunately, there is no such barrier, and thus the mechanism of repel had to be used in its stead.
Therefore, because of the speed of movement of most foes, the time between tics of the repel, and the possibility that a foe may be resistant, it has to have such a huge radius because that is the only way to ensure it will keep foes out of its center 99% of the time. This is, to my mind, the largest flaw with the concept. (Now, if it slowed foes trying to enter it, it could be a smaller radius...)
I agree that Castle would never introduce any major changes, but minor tweaks, like adding DefDebuff resistance to the existing bubbles, shouldn't cause any "cottages".
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Then, logically, it sounds like Force Bubble should have a large - range component such that targets outside the bubble could NOT reach those inside the bubble. This effect could be turned off for PVP.
Targets would be pushed away and due to decreased range would be unable to hit those in the center. Taadaa, pseudo wall of force, no?
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4.) Force Bubble's one of the goofiest powers the devs ever designed. It's nucking futs to think that the single target heavy hitters, like Cosmic Burst, don't have the base range to reach out FB's edge
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It's my believe that Force Bubble was the devs' attempt to create a "Wall of Force" power, a barrier that foes could not penetrate that could be used as a shield by the team. Unfortunately, there is no such barrier, and thus the mechanism of repel had to be used in its stead.
Therefore, because of the speed of movement of most foes, the time between tics of the repel, and the possibility that a foe may be resistant, it has to have such a huge radius because that is the only way to ensure it will keep foes out of its center 99% of the time. This is, to my mind, the largest flaw with the concept. (Now, if it slowed foes trying to enter it, it could be a smaller radius...)
I agree that Castle would never introduce any major changes, but minor tweaks, like adding DefDebuff resistance to the existing bubbles, shouldn't cause any "cottages".
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Then, logically, it sounds like Force Bubble should have a large - range component such that targets outside the bubble could NOT reach those inside the bubble. This effect could be turned off for PVP.
Targets would be pushed away and due to decreased range would be unable to hit those in the center. Taadaa, pseudo wall of force, no?
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No. That goes down to exposing an AT to no risk. Taunt now does what you are talking about but only for 5 targets max. Scrapper confront is the same but max of one target.
Doing this to force bubble would do it to ALL targets in the fight and those behind the defender could perpetually be in range of their own attacks and simultaneously out of the mobs range.
The devs eliminated 0 risk for ranged ATs that's why all the mobs in the upper level game have snipe or longer ranged attacks. They want even ranged boosted blasters to be exposed to "risk"
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
The only thing I think the set really needs is a real tier 9 power. Force Bubble is counter productive and somewhat redundant. Not to mention that it just doesn't stack up against other tier 9s.
- Fluffy
- Fulcrum
- EMP (Pulse and Arrow)
- Heat Sink
- Adrenalin Boost
- Liquefy
- Lightning Storm
Then the crown jewel - Force Bubble
Gack.
Current:
Fridgerato - Traps/Ice (Frdm)
Gadgetron - Grav/TA (Lbrty)
Ice/Kin Guide
I like Force Bubble just for the fun factor, and every time I used it, I would shout out: "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!!!" dramatically.
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The only thing I think the set really needs is a real tier 9 power. Force Bubble is counter productive and somewhat redundant. Not to mention that it just doesn't stack up against other tier 9s.
- Fluffy
- Fulcrum
- EMP (Pulse and Arrow)
- Heat Sink
- Adrenalin Boost
- Liquefy
- Lightning Storm
Then the crown jewel - Force Bubble
Gack.
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Well ...
Zoom back 5.5 years.
All mobs save lieuts do significantly less damage at range than at melee.
It was impossible, during beta, to keep all /3/ single target buffs on 2 minute timers on a team -- the single target buffs were supposed to be tactical (or, perhaps, saved solely for melee toons not covered by DB).
The devs truly borked the balance of AoE v. single target, with AoE being far and away more powerful than single target.
If you add all this up, yeah, I can see Force Bubble being powerful ... for the game in Jack's head. But he and the other devs sometimes had blinders on when it came to how powers interact with other, and it turns out that players can game distance more easily with slows and immobs than they can with powers like Repulsion Field and Force Bubble. Even if, strictly speaking, Force Bubble, is better at keeping mobs at range than Tar Patch.
In fact, you can see I5, with its defense nerfs and AoE caps, as an attempt to make distance in general, and Force Bubble in particular, worthwhile. At least, I can see it if I take off my glasses and squint.
The problem, however, is that the game we have doesn't up end being all that much like the original vision; it evolved away from that. And then we end up with the devs buffing the buffs to compensate for the rest of the set because, frankly, that was the easy way out. It's far easier to twiddle some numbers on good powers than to redo half a set.
I know a lot of people love the Force Field primary. I think it is a good set too. However, with Cold Domination coming to Defenders, I don't think it shines nearly as much as it used to.
It seems to me as if it just doesn't quite bring as much to the plate as other defender primaries. Now, don't misunderstand, I'm not saying FF sucks. But just because something isn't broken doesn't mean it can't be improved.
What I mean is that Cold brings similar defense values to the table but ups the mitigation with some knockdown with Sleet, -recharge with Snow Storm, stealth and resistances with ...I forget the name, and finally max HP with Frostworks. It also brings great offensive tools in its two single target debuffs and the -30% Res each from Sleet and Heat Loss. You look at other defender primaries and they can all bring similar, though sometimes not quite as spectacular, defensive ability but really trump FFs offensive capabilities.
So, I'm writing up a proposal on how to bring some small tweaks to FF to bring it more in line with the other Defender primaries. In my opinion, there are two ways to do this. Either make it the undisputed champion for bringing mitigation to the table or up its offensive capabilities.
A couple things I've brainstormed so far are:
Adding a small amount of +Res to the bubbles, including the big one. Something along the lines of 5 - 7.5 unslotted, per. At 5 unslotted, with all three bubbles protecting and slotted for Resistance, you'd get ~22 Resist all. Not bad. Also adding +10%Damage would go a long way to upping the sets offensive capabilities. However, this just focuses on the bubbles which most FFers already use.
I was thinking that Force Bolt could benefit, without being overpowered, from a fairly long duration, Mag 1 Stun being assoicated with the power. It makes sense that getting knocked around a bunch would eventually cause you to be disoriented.
I was thinking that Repulsion Bomb (is that the name? Sorry, no mids on this computer) could also use a damage buff. I don't think it'd be overpowering at all to make it into a very decent AoE attack.
I was also toying around with the idea of suggesting some -Def and maybe -Res for those repelled back by the Force Bubble.
Anyway, I'd love to hear some input on what everyone else thinks would improve FF without bringing it into the realm of overpowered. (Well, at least compared to other defender primaries.)