Awesome information for a tanker n00b (i.e. me).
Question: what are your thought on tanker set maturity curves? As a new tank I find myself frustrated in the early game. My PUGs yell for me to lead since I am the tank - but with 3 TOs in a single toggle defense I am about as durable as a piece of cheese.
How do the sets mature? Which can tank groups early, which need to hit x level before they can tank large spawns? Advice on what you can and cannot handle as you level?
Thanks again 
When you see yourself in a crowded room / do your fingers itch,are you pistol-whipped
Will you step in line or release the glitch / can you fall asleep with a panic switch
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Awesome information for a tanker n00b (i.e. me).
Question: what are your thought on tanker set maturity curves? As a new tank I find myself frustrated in the early game. My PUGs yell for me to lead since I am the tank - but with 3 TOs in a single toggle defense I am about as durable as a piece of cheese.
How do the sets mature? Which can tank groups early, which need to hit x level before they can tank large spawns? Advice on what you can and cannot handle as you level?
Thanks again
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Without buffing, most tanker sets are pretty fragile pre SOs. Yes an ice or shield tank with force fields or fortitude might be godly pre 20, but by and large, on your own, tanking for large teams is not easy.
Sets vary but most mature by 26 if not by 22 (assuming you take stamina at 20).
My one piece of advice, if you go dark armor, take a secondary that can stack stuns with oppressive gloom. I have a dark/axe and realised too late that my friend's dark/energy was just so much better. If you can stand having no blue bar until you get some serious IOs slotted, DM/stone is fine.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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Awesome information for a tanker n00b (i.e. me).
Question: what are your thought on tanker set maturity curves? As a new tank I find myself frustrated in the early game. My PUGs yell for me to lead since I am the tank - but with 3 TOs in a single toggle defense I am about as durable as a piece of cheese.
How do the sets mature? Which can tank groups early, which need to hit x level before they can tank large spawns? Advice on what you can and cannot handle as you level?
Thanks again
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Of all the Tankers I've tried (and that's been all the primaries with the exception of Dark Armor), Ice felt the most durable pre-20 although you have to be wary of the early toggles you don't need yet (CE and Icicles). This is probably because of the typed defense rather than the situational defense that Shields gets. Will Power is probably the *easiest* to progress early on because you don't have to make the run for Stamina until later on in the build, thus you can explore more of the set up to 20. Mind you, that this (like any of my comments (that's for the peanut gallery 
)) are entirely subjective to my personal experiences.
At L20 when most Tankers take Stamina life becomes a bit easier and then at L22, when you can start getting into IOs/SOs your Tanker (most any of them) starts to really shine.
Its a pet peeve and common complaint with most every Tanker that prior to SOs, Tankers are really just bags of hit points with a few low damaging attacks. If you can manage to hold out until L22 and beyond, then the entire world starts to change for you.
Getting into higher levels the only Tanker primary I've heard complained about on more then one occasion is Dark Armor but again I've no personal experience with that (I almost never see a DA Tanker). Otherwise they all blossom really well.
Getting into IO sets, you can turn around the disadvantage of almost any holes in any of the Tanker sets.
As far as what you can handle and not handle that's really a product of the situation. Typically Fire blooms later in terms of defenses (you usually want to take Tough/Weave on that set) but blooms fairly early in terms of offense.
Ice I think matures well but has holes in the end game (as most defense based primaries tend to). Energy Absorbtion is one of the best powers in the game. You can almost fill up an entire endurance bar on one mob, you gain defense per mob hit with it and it comes back multiple times in the same fight (if a longish fight). It's what really has me liking that set a lot. It also has the best panic button power in the game (Hibernate).
Invuln probably meets the average median the best in terms of maturing. It's one of the few primaries where I would take every power (WP being the other) and at the end game you really only greatly fear two damage types (Psionic and Toxic). Unfortunately if you play the normal content of the game you'll see a lot of Psionic post 40 but there are ways around it (defense and IOs).
Shields has a really fun power in Shield Charge and in general the set is probably the best cross between protection and damage (some lovin for the Shields guys ).
Will Power is easy mode ... all toggles and you never have to worry about HPs and Endurance. However (and again just from my experience) you'll probably eye that herding Invuln Tanker at L50 with a little jealousy until you get some IOs in there. You haven't lived until you've tanked 30+ mobs at once 
Stoners are probably the best all around Tankers at higher levels in terms of tanking (i.e. taking a hit) but is the least favorite set for me due to Granite mitigating all prior toggles and the negative drawback to Granite (-recharge and -movement. These can be overcome with IOs but I'm still not a fan of sets where one power makes several other powers useless (I had this problem with Inv conceptually with Unstoppable back in the perma Unstoppable days ... even if it was a blessing to respec out of the old tele-tanker build).
In terms of PvP I can't really say since there have been so many changes since last I really PvP'd and I generally stay away from PvP as I consider it broke as [bleep].
Hope this helped.
Krunch, you rule. TYVM.
I have a stone/stone that I love but has been very frustrating. Does not feel like a tank at all. A buddy of mine suggested just running solo until 22, then try to be a tank. I think that'll save me a lot of frustration.
Thanks again.
When you see yourself in a crowded room / do your fingers itch,are you pistol-whipped
Will you step in line or release the glitch / can you fall asleep with a panic switch
Kruunch's post is pretty good overall, but I have several points of disagreement:
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you have to be wary of the early toggles you don't need yet (CE and Icicles).
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I strongly disagree with the CE comment. It's Ice's aggro aura, and considering how poorly Gauntlet functions at low levels, I wouldn't trust it to hold aggro. Besides being an aggro aura, it also has a 14% dmg debuff (resisted by mob resistance) and a whopping 32% recharge debuff, which is not insignificant.
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This is probably because of the typed defense rather than the situational defense that Shields gets.
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I'm not sure why you say Shield's defense is situational, I consider positional defense to be stronger overall compared to typed. The big reason is it only has two holes: unpositional psi and autohit attacks (mostly non-existant now). Ice's typed defense has a hole to Fire/Cold/Psi/Toxic (with cold being covered by its 90% res). Further, the def gap between Ice and Shield is only 2-3%, or the amount of def that CJ grants.
I'm not saying Shield is more survivable at low levels (Ice has tools like CE / Hoarfrost), but the defense itself isn't the reason, imo.
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You haven't lived until you've tanked 30+ mobs at once
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Aggro cap. (You could be talking pre-aggro cap... but that means new Tanks will never live because of them.)
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Stoners are probably the best all around Tankers at higher levels in terms of tanking (i.e. taking a hit) but is the least favorite set for me due to Granite mitigating all prior toggles and the negative drawback to Granite (-recharge and -movement. These can be overcome with IOs but I'm still not a fan of sets where one power makes several other powers useless (I had this problem with Inv conceptually with Unstoppable back in the perma Unstoppable days ... even if it was a blessing to respec out of the old tele-tanker build).
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Within the realm of SOs, I'd agree that Granite is much more sturdy than other Tanks. With IOs, I personally think Granite loses a lot of its luster. Tankers can build up their mitigation much easier than a Granite can build to overcome their shortcomings. If you don't have millions to blow on IOs, then it's tough to beat Granite.
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Mind you, that this (like any of my comments (that's for the peanut gallery )) are entirely subjective to my personal experiences.
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Heh.
Likewise, I'm giving my opinion / corrections to your perceptions. I don't mean any offense by them, but if I see an inaccuracy somewhere, I'm inclined to chime in and point it out. (I expect nothing less from others who see something wrong with what I say, btw.)
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Kruunch's post is pretty good overall, but I have several points of disagreement:
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you have to be wary of the early toggles you don't need yet (CE and Icicles).
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I strongly disagree with the CE comment. It's Ice's aggro aura, and considering how poorly Gauntlet functions at low levels, I wouldn't trust it to hold aggro. Besides being an aggro aura, it also has a 14% dmg debuff (resisted by mob resistance) and a whopping 32% recharge debuff, which is not insignificant.
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For soloing/small groups CE is fairly worthless given the endurance it costs to run pre-Stamina. In large groups CE will just get the Tanker killed repeatedly.
Taunt auras aren't really necessary until you start taking big groups *when* you're capable of taking big groups. I'm of the opinion that they're not necessary at all for a decent Tanker but all Tanker primaries have some taunt aura built into it somewhere.
BTW at L31 my Ice Tanker still doesn't run CE (respecced out of it at L22) and holds agro just fine in full groups.
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This is probably because of the typed defense rather than the situational defense that Shields gets.
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I'm not sure why you say Shield's defense is situational, I consider positional defense to be stronger overall compared to typed. The big reason is it only has two holes: unpositional psi and autohit attacks (mostly non-existant now). Ice's typed defense has a hole to Fire/Cold/Psi/Toxic (with cold being covered by its 90% res). Further, the def gap between Ice and Shield is only 2-3%, or the amount of def that CJ grants.
I'm not saying Shield is more survivable at low levels (Ice has tools like CE / Hoarfrost), but the defense itself isn't the reason, imo.
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Let me rephrase ... with Frozen Armor and Hoarfrost you have most of the tools you need to develop a young Ice Tanker pre-20 while mitigating a lot of Shield's endurance woes because you need two toggles to accomplish about the samething for the average mobs you will be fighting in those level ranges (this doesn't include extremes like Posi's TF).
Shields defense outshines Ice's after L20s (your arguement of positional being better then typed being correct here) on a toggle basis (with Energy Absorbtion I don't believe it does).
Remember that this is specifically talking about lower levels. Now having said that (and to contradict myself above) I was running CE at these levels when I originally levelled through so that may have been part of the greater survivability issue. However many times I turned it off when not in any decent sized group (which was most of the time). When I did turn it on for larger groups I swallowed a ton of purples / greens to keep myself upright and many times that didn't help me from face planting.
Note: As a young Tanker, be smart and don't jump into packs just because you think that's what Tankers are supposed to do ... corner pull, run and gun, Port Foe is an excellent tool if you plan on going the Teleport route, and so forth. Be smart about being squishy.
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You haven't lived until you've tanked 30+ mobs at once
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Aggro cap. (You could be talking pre-aggro cap... but that means new Tanks will never live because of them.)
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Seriously? You just quoted the agro cap to me? You can still literally pull as many as you like if they are within their tether range. You can't have more then 16 *taunted* (since there isn't an actual agro list in CoH the "agro cap" is slightly mislabled).
I've solo tanked upwards of 50 mobs in the ITF all the time after the ITF is done. This included the EBs and Bosses in the canyon.
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Stoners are probably the best all around Tankers at higher levels in terms of tanking (i.e. taking a hit) but is the least favorite set for me due to Granite mitigating all prior toggles and the negative drawback to Granite (-recharge and -movement. These can be overcome with IOs but I'm still not a fan of sets where one power makes several other powers useless (I had this problem with Inv conceptually with Unstoppable back in the perma Unstoppable days ... even if it was a blessing to respec out of the old tele-tanker build).
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Within the realm of SOs, I'd agree that Granite is much more sturdy than other Tanks. With IOs, I personally think Granite loses a lot of its luster. Tankers can build up their mitigation much easier than a Granite can build to overcome their shortcomings. If you don't have millions to blow on IOs, then it's tough to beat Granite.
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Thanks for repeating what I said
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Mind you, that this (like any of my comments (that's for the peanut gallery )) are entirely subjective to my personal experiences.
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Heh.
Likewise, I'm giving my opinion / corrections to your perceptions. I don't mean any offense by them, but if I see an inaccuracy somewhere, I'm inclined to chime in and point it out. (I expect nothing less from others who see something wrong with what I say, btw.)
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Not at all but you do have to remember that this post is geared towards two types of people; new players and new Tankers (specifically Villains crossing over and/or alt-a-holics). Most of these types of players won't be levelling quickly as opposed to the experienced vet who is trying out a new build and sets up a bridge team or something similar.
Also most of these people won't have skads of infuence, especially while levelling up, so I tend to stay away from IO discussions here as a means for making a Tanker combo do something it doesn't normally do well.
I've outfitted my second toon hero side with IOs (Kruunch this time) and doing it cheaply (without purples) its cost me upwards of 60-70 mil influence. That's with me having a bunch of the recipes as well as almost all of the rare salvage.
In my experience, the more casual players hardly bother.
But I *did* state that with IOs, you can make every Tanker sing and dance (even Stoners).
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For soloing/small groups CE is fairly worthless given the endurance it costs to run pre-Stamina. In large groups CE will just get the Tanker killed repeatedly.
Taunt auras aren't really necessary until you start taking big groups *when* you're capable of taking big groups. I'm of the opinion that they're not necessary at all for a decent Tanker but all Tanker primaries have some taunt aura built into it somewhere.
BTW at L31 my Ice Tanker still doesn't run CE (respecced out of it at L22) and holds agro just fine in full groups.
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My experience with Ice is a lot different, however I leveled her through the teens back in I6 - before the critter accuracy change, when up level/rank mobs had tohit buffs. This really crushed the effectiveness of low amounts of defense. I believe there were points I'd run CE instead of FA/GA because of this. If you're able to stand the aggro, then running CE will allow you to do it better due to its debuffs.
I won't argue that Tankers are squishier at low levels, but if I want to tank (good group, or whatever) I'd rather not depend on guantlet - since it's especially flakey pre-20. (I also tend to put off Taunt until the early/mid twenties.)
(I do spend a lot of time soloing low level Tanks because they don't perform on teams up to my standards.)
I like CE, and I would never put it off that late. I have a feeling we'll have to just agree to disagree.
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Let me rephrase ...
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I disagree with your thoughts on CE, and I think TP Foe is a stinky power, but otherwise, fair thoughts.
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Seriously? You just quoted the agro cap to me? You can still literally pull as many as you like if they are within their tether range. You can't have more then 16 *taunted* (since there isn't an actual agro list in CoH the "agro cap" is slightly mislabled).
I've solo tanked upwards of 50 mobs in the ITF all the time after the ITF is done. This included the EBs and Bosses in the canyon.
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What do you mean by "taunt cap"? Are you saying that you can have 30 mobs attacking you at one time, but cannot keep that many taunted (ie: they'll peel as soon as anybody sneezes)? If you are, you're mistaken. Someone brought up the aggro cap a couple months ago and I tested it. That screenshot has 18 rikti monkies, 17 around me and one taunted at range - solo. The 18th would not attack me. After I killed one, the 18th turned and attacked me.
At any given time, you cannot have more than 17 mobs attacking you at once. If you lose aggro on something (say to another player) then extra mobs will be able to fill that back to 17, but never any higher. If you can prove me incorrect (screenshot or preferably a demo), please do.
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Also most of these people won't have skads of infuence, especially while levelling up, so I tend to stay away from IO discussions here as a means for making a Tanker combo do something it doesn't normally do well.
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Apart for my comment about Granite, I was I spoke of being free of IOs, too.
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But I *did* state that with IOs, you can make every Tanker sing and dance (even Stoners).
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I read your post, but couldn't reply immediately, so I did forget that intermediate paragraph stating such. Mea culpa.
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What do you mean by "taunt cap"? Are you saying that you can have 30 mobs attacking you at one time, but cannot keep that many taunted (ie: they'll peel as soon as anybody sneezes)? If you are, you're mistaken. Someone brought up the aggro cap a couple months ago and I tested it. That screenshot has 18 rikti monkies, 17 around me and one taunted at range - solo. The 18th would not attack me. After I killed one, the 18th turned and attacked me.
At any given time, you cannot have more than 17 mobs attacking you at once. If you lose aggro on something (say to another player) then extra mobs will be able to fill that back to 17, but never any higher. If you can prove me incorrect (screenshot or preferably a demo), please do.
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Just as a note: the aggro cap is per player, a team can theoretically aggro 136 critters, but only 17 will pay attention to each player. Anything over the cap, goes to the blaster (who the defender may be doing a better job of protecting than you are.)
It's easy for a tanker to think he is actually the center of such a team's aggro if buffs are keeping everyone else alive.
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For soloing/small groups CE is fairly worthless given the endurance it costs to run pre-Stamina.
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Going to have to disagree here. It costs no more to run CE than Frozen Armor.
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In large groups CE will just get the Tanker killed repeatedly.
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I never discovered this to be the case. The slow and -DMG it provides helps to mitigate the aggro that it causes. It's leagues ahead of taking Blazing Aura on a Fire Tanker in the low levels.
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Taunt auras aren't really necessary until you start taking big groups *when* you're capable of taking big groups. I'm of the opinion that they're not necessary at all for a decent Tanker but all Tanker primaries have some taunt aura built into it somewhere.
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Sure, a good Tanker can get away without them, but they make things much easier for most Tankers. And this is especially true considering that most of them have additional functions that provide mitigation for the tanker. CE provides the slow and -DMG. Willpower's provides a great deal of Regen. Invulns provides defense, etc. Basically, skipping your Taunt aura doesn't just mean you skip your Taunt aura, it can mean giving up a good deal of survivability as well.
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BTW at L31 my Ice Tanker still doesn't run CE (respecced out of it at L22) and holds agro just fine in full groups.
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That's fine. But you'd be more survivable, and less likely to need to spam Taunt all the time, if you had it.
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eriously? You just quoted the agro cap to me? You can still literally pull as many as you like if they are within their tether range. You can't have more then 16 *taunted* (since there isn't an actual agro list in CoH the "agro cap" is slightly mislabled).
I've solo tanked upwards of 50 mobs in the ITF all the time after the ITF is done. This included the EBs and Bosses in the canyon.
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Pulling =/= being attacked by. And if you're not being attacked by them, how does that count as Tanking? If a single shot from another player on your team hits them, you've lost the aggro. So again, not Tanking.
I can pull as many as I want. It doesn't mean that I'm tanking them.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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For soloing/small groups CE is fairly worthless given the endurance it costs to run pre-Stamina
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For such low-level soloing, chilling embrace is comparable to frozen armor and glacial armor combined as it affects all damage types, and costs less endurance than the two together. That, and glacial armor doesn't come until 18, so hoarfrost and chilling embrace are a low-level ice tanks only mitigation to n.energy and energy damage until then (see: clockwork, CoT, Vahzilok bosses, skulls bosses, Mu, outcasts). Mitigation to all other damage types is a bonus, especially those not covered by the armors like toxic and psi (see: vahzilok, arachnos, hydra, CoT, lost).
TL;dr: What?
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What do you mean by "taunt cap"? Are you saying that you can have 30 mobs attacking you at one time, but cannot keep that many taunted (ie: they'll peel as soon as anybody sneezes)? If you are, you're mistaken. Someone brought up the aggro cap a couple months ago and I tested it. That screenshot has 18 rikti monkies, 17 around me and one taunted at range - solo. The 18th would not attack me. After I killed one, the 18th turned and attacked me.
At any given time, you cannot have more than 17 mobs attacking you at once. If you lose aggro on something (say to another player) then extra mobs will be able to fill that back to 17, but never any higher. If you can prove me incorrect (screenshot or preferably a demo), please do.
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Just as a note: the aggro cap is per player, a team can theoretically aggro 136 critters, but only 17 will pay attention to each player. Anything over the cap, goes to the blaster (who the defender may be doing a better job of protecting than you are.)
It's easy for a tanker to think he is actually the center of such a team's aggro if buffs are keeping everyone else alive.
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You know for people who post as much as you guys do you really ought to take the time to read before replying.
Did I not say solo tanked 50 mobs?
BTW you're wrong ... there are ways to keep dozens of mobs entertained as a Tanker in a group. And now this may come as a shocker ... if you and your group work together at it.
As far as CE goes, its easy enough for anyone to tell if they like it at early levels. Just make one build with and one without and there ya go.
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You know for people who post as much as you guys do you really ought to take the time to read before replying.
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That's a pretty insulting comment to throw around lightly. I did ask for clarification on what you meant by the aggro cap being "mislabeled." I then went on to clarify my stance. This is what you responded with, not very helpful to me.
[edit: For the record, I'm not personally offended, but I read that and thought, "Wait, what? Really?"]
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Did I not say solo tanked 50 mobs?
BTW you're wrong ... there are ways to keep dozens of mobs entertained as a Tanker in a group. And now this may come as a shocker ... if you and your group work together at it.
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No more than 17 mobs will try to attack you at any given time. Run to monkey island in PI and show me 18 or more trying to attack you at once. I'll go make a demo showing you it cannot be done if need be.
The only possible thing I can imagine you mean by this is hitting a group with an aoe crowd control (Fault or Ice Patch) then moving on to the next mobs. I don't classify that as tanking over 17 mobs for two reasons:
1) If the CCed mobs are currently counted against your aggro limit, you cannot hold attention of the CCed mobs and an additional 17, it would be 17 minus the CCed mobs.
2) If the CCed mobs aren't currently counted against your aggro limit, they'll attack whoever they want as soon as they can. (I don't believe for a second that you could launch another AOE control on the exact same mobs you just used it on, especially against the 50 targets you tout.)
Mobs will get lose and they will attack other people. I would not call that tanking 30-50 mobs.
(Btw, I think it's interesting you solo tank (emphasis yours), but require team participation in order for it to work. Isn't that... the opposite of solo?)
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I've solo tanked upwards of 50 mobs in the ITF all the time after the ITF is done. This included the EBs and Bosses in the canyon.
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I've seen Elvis. After he died. He's living in South America with Tupac. What?
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... couldn't resist.
Well, I will say this about CE. It CAN attract more aggro than you can handle if you're not careful. I know this from personal experience on Tanker Tuesdays... when I have it on, I'll sometimes die because I'm picking up more aggro than I can handle. With it off, I'm still getting attacks on me, etc., but not more than I can handle.
From what I can see and know of it, CE makes you into an aggro magnet- more so than the other auras in-game. Still useful, but an Ice Tanker should take care with it until they get their defenses up to par, at least on large teams.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Sarrate: Sigh ... yay for internet communications.
1) Whether the mobs are all attacking me or not, I can physically herd a bunch of mobs together (over 16) *if* the mob packs are close enough together, and then fight them all down.
2) I said solo tanked because in that example I solo tanked (don't know what the misunderstanding is here).
3) I said to do the samething in a group, the group has to work together (this would be different example). Yes you won't hold agro on all the mobs at the sametime BUT an active tank can aborb the alpha, after which the group does its thing. By the time the second alpha (beta?) comes up, there are tons less mobs (still might be more then the 16 cap though) and the active tank will have rounded said mobs up the same way.
To do this and to be precise (on my Inv Tanker): I run into a pack and KO Blow the center mob (this punchvokes or at the very least proximity agros the nearby mobs) absorbing that packs alpha. I then move to the next pack and Footstomp (this maxes my agro cap (assuming large packs of 10-15 mobs)). The punchvoke has worn off the prior mobs but they still follow due to proximity at this point (they are not past their tether). I Taunt the next pack over to me (corner pulling if necessary to pack em all in). This gives me 3 packs of 10-15 per pack (30-45 mobs) tightly packed. THEN my group goes to work.
If you want, I'd be glad to show it to you in action.
I don't think I could be any more clear then that.
P.S. - And before you try this (if you do) and get your group creamed, make sure they know to attack in waves so if they grab agro it will only be from a few mobs and not the entire pack. You attack, you draw the alpha, the group attacks, you attack, drawing the next alpha and so forth. What I can't do is pull 50 mobs across the map like the old fashioned door missions (which is why the agro cap was put into place incidentally).
P.P.S. - Just because someone is going to bring it up ... even if a mob has peeled off of me, if they've attacked, the attack timer still counts for the new agro ... which means they peel off but still wait for their attack to cycle ... this is how you manage more then 16 mobs as a Tanker and a group.
P.P.P.S. - You also realize that the early videos of mine and Havoc's were one of the main reasons for the agro cap? *ducks*
Hope this clarified.
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Well, I will say this about CE. It CAN attract more aggro than you can handle if you're not careful. I know this from personal experience on Tanker Tuesdays... when I have it on, I'll sometimes die because I'm picking up more aggro than I can handle. With it off, I'm still getting attacks on me, etc., but not more than I can handle.
From what I can see and know of it, CE makes you into an aggro magnet- more so than the other auras in-game. Still useful, but an Ice Tanker should take care with it until they get their defenses up to par, at least on large teams.
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Bless your soul.
What I don't think a lot of Tanker vets understand is that they know how to manage agro and its become so ingrained that to them, having a taunt aura at L12 is still survivable. Your average newbie Tanker isn't going to have that same experience because of lack of experience (even if he/she is a good player). It's one of those nuances of tanking (especially at early levels) that Tanker vets go on about but then fail to acknowledge later.
At least that's how it seems to me.
I personally found CE invaluable at low levels. It meant I could actually tank. As for staying alive it wasn't a problem with some support. It's not hard softcapping your defense at level 15 in a big team, odds are someone can top you off. CE gave me less end issues since I could just stand around doing nothing and still be one of the most useful people in the group.
I'm a bit fond of it's ability to provide pseudo-resists to the entire team, and the fact that it works fine with nary a slot spent.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
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I personally found CE invaluable at low levels. It meant I could actually tank. As for staying alive it wasn't a problem with some support. It's not hard softcapping your defense at level 15 in a big team, odds are someone can top you off. CE gave me less end issues since I could just stand around doing nothing and still be one of the most useful people in the group.
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I tend not to make my suggestions based around what my team composition *might* be. Virtue and Freedom might be a bit easier team wise due to population but on Justice finding a team at all can be challenging, much less trying to hand pick a team to suit your needs.
If you know you'll be running with a regular group then that's a different story (and usually doesn't apply to newbie Tankers in my experience).
Edited for the heck of it to procrastinate on rebuilding our email server cluster.
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Sarrate: Sigh ... yay for internet communications.
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Been there, done that. Converse on the Internet and it will happen to anyone.
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1) Whether the mobs are all attacking me or not, I can physically herd a bunch of mobs together (over 16) *if* the mob packs are close enough together, and then fight them all down.
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If you're solo, this is impossible (unless you stand right on top of another group and you don't lose aggro on any of the previous mobs). If you're on a team, those over the aggro cap (which is 17, not 16) won't be following you, rather, your teammates. (More on this in a second.)
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3) I said to do the samething in a group, the group has to work together (this would be different example). Yes you won't hold agro on all the mobs at the sametime BUT an active tank can aborb the alpha, after which the group does its thing. By the time the second alpha (beta?) comes up, there are tons less mobs (still might be more then the 16 cap though) and the active tank will have rounded said mobs up the same way.
To do this and to be precise (on my Inv Tanker): I run into a pack and KO Blow the center mob (this punchvokes or at the very least proximity agros the nearby mobs) absorbing that packs alpha. I then move to the next pack and Footstomp (this maxes my agro cap (assuming large packs of 10-15 mobs)). The punchvoke has worn off the prior mobs but they still follow due to proximity at this point (they are not past their tether). I Taunt the next pack over to me (corner pulling if necessary to pack em all in). This gives me 3 packs of 10-15 per pack (30-45 mobs) tightly packed. THEN my group goes to work.
If you want, I'd be glad to show it to you in action.
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Okay, I'm going to try my best to illustrate my problem with this explaination. No offense if this is known to you - I want to be perfectly clear.
Last night I ran off to monkey island in PI and recorded a cohdemo to explain what is going on. Before I started recording, I rounded up exactly 17 monkies (the cap) - you can double check these two screenshots to verify there are indeed 17 (screenshot 1, screenshot 2). After this point, I started taunting monkies at range. They did not follow me, run towards me, or even react, despite being well within their 'tether.'
Once I verified that the additional monkies would not follow me, I killed exactly one monkey. Immediately after, exactly one monkey shot a psi blast at me, then closed to melee range. I did this about 5-6 times with identical results each time.
What if I deal damage to extra mobs? I moved my herd of 17 monkies slightly to find a new spawn. I used a crafted Pistol (to ensure I didn't kill them) and shot one, then moved backwards slightly (20ft, maybe). The monkey I shot chased me, but something interesting happened - one of the monkies that was previously attacking me returned to its spawn point. It didn't follow me. I proceeded to kill the monkey I just aggroed resulting in the deserting monkie to immediately reaggro and close to melee. Rinse and repeat another 2-4 times. To verify I still had 17 mobs by the end of the demo, check this screenshot. (Ignore the laughable regen, that's my second build which is only ~70% complete. Unslotted RttC, hah!)
If you were forward pulling (KO Blow in spawn1, move to spawn2 and FS) you'd only be bringing 5-7 mobs from spawn1 to spawn2, the rest would lose intrest in you and move back to their spawn point. If you group was following with you (ie: group participation) the rest of spawn1 was following your team, not you.
In my opinion, if you're not being attacked by all the mobs, then I don't consider it 'tanking.' You may be eating the alpha and facilitating the herding of multiple, but you're not 'tanking' them. In my opinion, once you hit the aggro cap, there's no point in herding up more mobs. The highest target cap for AoEs is 16, so it's not like your team is killing any faster than if there were 50. (You're probably killing slower since your damage would be more spread out, giving mobs more time to regen.) Once you hit the aggro cap, I think it makes much more sense to round up one spawn, have the team wipe them out then proceed to the next. (Depending on what the team can handle, I'll leave before the spawn is dead to round up the next spawn, so the team catches up and nukes that one.)
[edit: Oh, I should mention, there is no maximum "tether," if you keep a mobs attention, he'll follow you all the way across a zone. I've personally pulled Eochai halfway across zones before in multiple zones (Kings, Steel, Talos, and Creys Folly). Mobs that turn away and return to their spawn point aren't doing so because they're beyond any tether, it's because you hit the aggro cap and they were pushed off.]
Fair enough .... I'll see if I can show you different.
As far as your opinion on whether herding is tanking ... shrug. I think you're just picking nits at that point (especially after so carefully explaining to me how I can't have possibly done it in the first place). You could make the arguement that pulling more then 16 while knowing only 16 will be attacking you is exploitive. But I've never been too morally concerned about exploiting weak programming and/or game design as some others seem to be (why that would be a moral issue I have no idea).
On another note, I've pulled whole maps with my Fire/Dark Corruptor by throwing Darkest Night on a mob at the end of a map (warehouse map or something similar) and then running back to the front of the map. The mob chases and agros everything that comes into range of the toggle. Now I've never physically counted how many it brings and there are always stragglers left behind but it's felt like more then 16. I will check on that as well.
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[edit: Oh, I should mention, there is no maximum "tether," if you keep a mobs attention, he'll follow you all the way across a zone. I've personally pulled Eochai halfway across zones before in multiple zones (Kings, Steel, Talos, and Creys Folly). Mobs that turn away and return to their spawn point aren't doing so because they're beyond any tether, it's because you hit the aggro cap and they were pushed off.]
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There is also an additional mechanic at work there, not sure if it's threat degradation or special AI code that will make a foe that has not been attacked for X amount of time give up on following you if you are Y feet away, but a critter can give up on following you even without reaching the cap if you don't regularly re-taunt or hit him (why its easier for tankers and brutes to herd than scrappers.)
As for Kruunch:
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As far as your opinion on whether herding is tanking ... shrug.
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That's not an opinion, that's the general terminology used by this game in the last few years, at least 3 if not more.
Tanking is the process of taking damage for your team, you can't do that solo. Saying "solo tanking" denotes you are tanking for your team without the need of buffs or additional tanks to hold excess aggro.
Herding CAN be done while tanking, but solo, large amounts of mobs on you simply is herding. You can try to use your own terms but you will find yourself in a lot of arguments due to plain misunderstanding.
Actually, going back to the OP, for noobs, the firs thing they have to learn is the definition this game's community has for Tanking, Herding and Pulling (witch many wrongfully call herding.)
Sarrate: You can pull a mob all across a zone if you keep damaging it (thus resetting its tether). If you hit a mob once and run across the zone it eventually gives up (at its tether range) and returns to its spawn (or despawns entirely). So yes there is a maximum tether ... it just can be reset by periodically re-agroing the mob.
Also on another note, your analysis of how I was pulling is wrong. I don't have to hit a single mob to bring the whole pack with me ... proximity agro and the taunt aura being run (in my case, Invince) pretty much do the work for me (again, tether range being an issue here). I assume your 5-7 number was just taking into account the punchvoke effect which isn't really the mechanic at work here (although can add to it). I just can't pass up the opportunity to KO Blow a mob who has it coming
Starsman: Yes it *is* an opinion and more appropriately your personal take on what is what. The fact that you don't know the difference is why your posts get treated as so much spam by me.
Solo anything is just soloing ... herding for a group and then taking the brunt of the damage while the group kills said herd is tanking (that's *my* opinion). I've discussed both here, please try and keep up and you can call it spelunking for all I care.
And this is getting wildly off topic since none of this discussion applies to new Tankers; except to say that most any Tanker that I've heard/seen/talked to gets giddy at the idea of being able to herd and/or take on large packs of mobs for his group eventually. As a new Tanker, this will probably be something you are looking forward to being able to do in the future and I would definitely recommend it ... it's one of the great pleasures of this game that few others offer and is what drives most Scrapper envy.
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I personally find WP/SS to be a great combination. The two sets go well together, especially conceptually.
Plus, Rage's animation matches the WP toggles =]
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Wow I can't believe I missed this in my original post.
Yes WP/SS is an amazing combination. I have a SS/WP Brute that is a freakin monster.
Freonfreak: that's been about my experience with Shields from what I've played as well as what I've seen.
Anyone have a Shields/Dark they want to comment on?