how good are our arcs now vs- in 6 months?
By
AddamsFamily,
Posted on: 2009-05-01 17:51 in Mission Architect
With one assumption, I would say the best MA arcs now are still going to be good 6 months from now. Why? Because good storytelling is timeless. Other arcs might "catch up" to the good stuff, moving the average up, but the best arcs are so many sigmas out that the average would have to move by an order of magnitude to swallow them.
The one assumption is that the arcs in question aren't totally rearranged or invalidated by a future patch. If a challenge-based arc suddenly becomes a meow farm because a critter's use of a powerset is nerfed, that changes the whole equation - and similarly, if the AI is improved so that something that used to be a challenge now causes ragequit, that would also be a dealbreaker.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
"Because good storytelling is timeless."
that's just not true.
read any 19th century classic - they are terrible to read now.
storytelling is a skill and style which develops over time.
What makes the older dev-created content "worse" than the newer stuff is an over-reliance on time-sinks like defeat-alls, street hunts and fed-exes. Take those away, and some of the older arcs, like World Wide Red, A Path Into Darkness, and the Hess task force (ok, I admit I'm biased toward anything that has a giant robot in it) blows most of the newer, flashier content out of the water.
So yeah. A good story is a good story no matter what shiny new toys we have to play with.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
It's a mixed bag. Overall as people get more skilled and they enhance the AE interface/toolset more, stories will get better.
There are still people honing their stories having never published. Also, there is the one hit wonder thing too where someone has for years had a story, movie, etc. in them that they've wanted to tell and you may be seeing some of these already.
I think the quickest answer to the question is how good are the dev choice arcs compared to the 999+ plays 4 star SFMA arcs out there? I have a strong opinion, but it is skewed by a limited number of dev choices existing in the pre-40 non-custom mob hero area.
Then again as the writing becomes more sophisticated so will the expectations.
edited to add an epiphany... solution to Hall of Fame: disconnect it from the star rating and have a simple extra checkbox "Vote for Hall of Fame Status" arc gets 1000 votes and it's in permanently. Sorta off subject but wanted to trap the thought as it spawned from this question.
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What makes the older dev-created content "worse" than the newer stuff is an over-reliance on time-sinks like defeat-alls, street hunts and fed-exes. Take those away, and some of the older arcs, like World Wide Red, A Path Into Darkness, and the Hess task force (ok, I admit I'm biased toward anything that has a giant robot in it) blows most of the newer, flashier content out of the water.
So yeah. A good story is a good story no matter what shiny new toys we have to play with.
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I agree that they have some good stories - but the missions tend still to be dull, and the maps (not the Hess giant robot map).
Faultline has maps where you go into buildings, interiors on a slant. There are the maps were you start in a building, go into a tunnel, then into a rikti area.
Good storytelling is good. But good storytelling with good maps, creative objectives, and fun detail is far better.
Star Wars is the same basic story as many, many others. It's not the story alone that made star wars a hit (and conversely, special effects couldn't save a lot of bad star wars knock offs)
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"Because good storytelling is timeless."
that's just not true.
read any 19th century classic - they are terrible to read now.
storytelling is a skill and style which develops over time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Aren't we lucky that we've evolved past the amateur story-telling fumblings of Dickens and Twain.
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"Because good storytelling is timeless."
that's just not true.
read any 19th century classic - they are terrible to read now.
storytelling is a skill and style which develops over time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Aren't we lucky that we've evolved past the amateur story-telling fumblings of Dickens and Twain.
[/ QUOTE ]
I prefer Robert Louis Stevenson and Arthur Conan Doyle myself.
Edit: Forgot Jules Verne. (Translated since I don't read French.) Anybody else want to chime in?
If Brevity is the Soul of Wit, Why are You Reading This?
Ok, imagine World Wide Red told in five missions, using only the maps that arc uses. (And without the giant robots, because NOOOO, they can't just limit them to outdoor maps, we can't have them at all.)
Now image the RWZ storyline told in five missions, with all those "cool new maps" it has. (Which we've all seen a zillion times unlocking the Midnight Club.)
Which is the better story?
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Ok, imagine World Wide Red told in five missions, using only the maps that arc uses. (And without the giant robots, because NOOOO, they can't just limit them to outdoor maps, we can't have them at all.)
Now image the RWZ storyline told in five missions, with all those "cool new maps" it has. (Which we've all seen a zillion times unlocking the Midnight Club.)
Which is the better story?
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That depends: which one is being written in the 19th century?
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
Aren't we lucky that we've evolved past the amateur story-telling fumblings of Dickens and Twain.
[/ QUOTE ]
[I prefer Robert Louis Stevenson and Arthur Conan Doyle myself.]
[Edit: Forgot Jules Verne.]
Excellent examples. All authors that are admired and left unread by the general public. It's great to name names. But they are not books that the modern public reads and enjoys. There are certainly a minority that do enjoy them.
[Ok, imagine World Wide Red told in five missions, using only the maps that arc uses. (And without the giant robots, because NOOOO, they can't just limit them to outdoor maps, we can't have them at all.)
Now image the RWZ storyline told in five missions, with all those "cool new maps" it has. (Which we've all seen a zillion times unlocking the Midnight Club.)
Which is the better story?]
You have 2 problems here.
One, you are comparing a bad story to a good story. Bad
stories are bad stories - I've already said that.
Two, you are fixated on stories. I have a bookshelf full of stories. If you want to read a good story - find a book. A major failing of current arcs is the story fixation. Plots are clever, contacts are nice, text is great - and the missions are boring. Because the author thinks that this is Mission Texpad not Mission Architect.
As soon as you all cancel your CoX accounts and spend your days reading Dickens, Twain, and Jules Verne - then I will believe you that a good story is timeless and all that truly matters.
A bunch of cool new guys standing around on a cool new map is still a bunch of guys standing around waiting for you to come along and shoot them.
There are plenty of things you can do with the mission architect now that makes the mission more than just a bunch of guys standing around waiting to be shot and a bunch of stuff to read. And honestly, there aren't that many things in dev-created content that we can't do in MA to enhance the gameplay aspect.
You want to talk gameplay? Ok, I think the final mission of Silver Mantis's task force is way more fun than the ITF, despite predating it by two years. Especially since you can't just team-TP your way past anything that you have to not be an idiot to beat.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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A bunch of cool new guys standing around on a cool new map is still a bunch of guys standing around waiting for you to come along and shoot them.
There are plenty of things you can do with the mission architect now that makes the mission more than just a bunch of guys standing around waiting to be shot and a bunch of stuff to read. And honestly, there aren't that many things in dev-created content that we can't do in MA to enhance the gameplay aspect.
You want to talk gameplay? Ok, I think the final mission of Silver Mantis's task force is way more fun than the ITF, despite predating it by two years. Especially since you can't just team-TP your way past anything that you have to not be an idiot to beat.
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I love mantis final mission....I was so hoping that would be a selectable map when architect came out.
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[I prefer Robert Louis Stevenson and Arthur Conan Doyle myself.]
[Edit: Forgot Jules Verne.]
Excellent examples. All authors that are admired and left unread by the general public. It's great to name names. But they are not books that the modern public reads and enjoys. There are certainly a minority that do enjoy them.
[Ok, imagine World Wide Red told in five missions, using only the maps that arc uses. (And without the giant robots, because NOOOO, they can't just limit them to outdoor maps, we can't have them at all.)
Now image the RWZ storyline told in five missions, with all those "cool new maps" it has. (Which we've all seen a zillion times unlocking the Midnight Club.)
Which is the better story?]
You have 2 problems here.
One, you are comparing a bad story to a good story. Bad
stories are bad stories - I've already said that.
Two, you are fixated on stories. I have a bookshelf full of stories. If you want to read a good story - find a book. A major failing of current arcs is the story fixation. Plots are clever, contacts are nice, text is great - and the missions are boring. Because the author thinks that this is Mission Texpad not Mission Architect.
As soon as you all cancel your CoX accounts and spend your days reading Dickens, Twain, and Jules Verne - then I will believe you that a good story is timeless and all that truly matters.
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The reason those authors are not widely enjoyed now is because tastes change over the course of a century, not because they were not good storytellers.
It's unlikely that tastes will change in 6 months, we'll just have more tools to create the adversaries with.
Speaking of tastes, YOUR tastes do not equal what everyone wants from MA missions. I really can't even see how you can have a good story and boring missions. Missions are pretty much the same. There are certainly ways you can make a mission a grind, but about all you can do to spruce it up from a normal CoH mission is to add the novelty of custom foes.
Now, if you're talking about none of the story being advanced in the missions, so that all of the story takes place in the contact text, then I can see your point. Missions should not just be something to get through in order to read the next chapter.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
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I really can't even see how you can have a good story and boring missions. Missions are pretty much the same. There are certainly ways you can make a mission a grind, but about all you can do to spruce it up from a normal CoH mission is to add the novelty of custom foes.
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so you have that misconception. That's the point.
People will discover this is not the case - and hopefully the devs will improve the tools to make it even better.
Prevent 30 firbolgs from escaping, defend the reactor from waves of foes, these are very different missions from the normal move through a map and defeat each spawn in sequence.
Ambushes, patrols, defendable objects change the dynamics of a mission.
enemies that talk, npc's that interact - these change the feel of being in a mission.
A mission should not be 19 standard spawns standing their silently pounding their fists, then 1 boss spawn who talks. When people realize that and what they can really do with a mission - then we will start seeing much better missions.
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"Because good storytelling is timeless."
that's just not true.
read any 19th century classic - they are terrible to read now.
storytelling is a skill and style which develops over time.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Hwæt! Wē Gār‐Dena in geār‐dagum
þēod‐cyninga þrym gefrūnon,
hū þā æðelingas ellen fremedon."
This particular thousand-year-old piece of English literature was recently turned into a movie. A crappy movie, nonetheless. Storytelling hasn't developed all that much; instead, audiences have changed.
You're going to tell me that Milton and Chaucer are unreadable; I'm going to call you illiterate. This isn't something that can really be resolved all that tidily.
Well, a good chat!
I see both major points here. Personally, I like a good story to contextualize mishes. Let's face it--every mish is either a) kill everyone / boss; b) rescue someone; c) collect glowies (etc--point is, there are a limited number of options to work with). A good story makes things a lot more fun.
That being said, the downside is pouring all your time and energy into a story that can only been seen by the team leader anyway. :-)
On the flip side, despite the essential limits on mish objectives, there needs to be challenge enough that folks enjoy it--cakewalks don't work.
I think the coveted DC badge needs a good mix of both; or in other words, 'Moby Dick' didn't need just the whale, it needed Ahab's personal issues (a story!) to fly.
BTW--both are very readable; Milton's take on Satan is one of the most interesting ones in Western Christian culture (says the religious studies grad student....)
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so you have that misconception. That's the point.
People will discover this is not the case - and hopefully the devs will improve the tools to make it even better.
Prevent 30 firbolgs from escaping, defend the reactor from waves of foes, these are very different missions from the normal move through a map and defeat each spawn in sequence.
Ambushes, patrols, defendable objects change the dynamics of a mission.
enemies that talk, npc's that interact - these change the feel of being in a mission.
A mission should not be 19 standard spawns standing their silently pounding their fists, then 1 boss spawn who talks. When people realize that and what they can really do with a mission - then we will start seeing much better missions.
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Ok, that's what I meant by "if you're talking about the mission not advancing the story". I don't agree with you on that as a blanket statement, however. Some of that is greatly a matter of taste.
For example, while I do like having patrols, especially to have people moving about in the mission and speaking. I loathe defendable objects. Ambushes are good, but not if overused, especially having multiple ambushes from the same objective.
I'm sure there are things others who like story focused arcs really hate that I like, and neither of us can claim that our tastes fit what most people want.
(ok, I take that back....either of us can claim it...just doesn;t make it so 
)
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
[ QUOTE ]
On the flip side, despite the essential limits on mish objectives, there needs to be challenge enough that folks enjoy it--cakewalks don't work.
I think the coveted DC badge needs a good mix of both; or in other words, 'Moby Dick' didn't need just the whale, it needed Ahab's personal issues (a story!) to fly.
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I tend to agree with you for a Hall of Fame arc. You're going to have to appeal to both the people who like a good story, and the people who just click the text and never read the clues, but want to have fun killing things. DC, though, is a different animal. For now, anyway, I'd have to disagree with you for getting a DC badge.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
[ QUOTE ]
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I really can't even see how you can have a good story and boring missions. Missions are pretty much the same. There are certainly ways you can make a mission a grind, but about all you can do to spruce it up from a normal CoH mission is to add the novelty of custom foes.
[/ QUOTE ]
so you have that misconception. That's the point.
People will discover this is not the case - and hopefully the devs will improve the tools to make it even better.
Prevent 30 firbolgs from escaping, defend the reactor from waves of foes, these are very different missions from the normal move through a map and defeat each spawn in sequence.
[/ QUOTE ]
Those missions are interesting because they are unique. I know plenty of people who hate the "Stop 30 Fir Bolg" mission. I like it because there's nothing else like it, but if there were 50 of them, it would get really old really fast.
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Ambushes, patrols, defendable objects change the dynamics of a mission.
enemies that talk, npc's that interact - these change the feel of being in a mission.
A mission should not be 19 standard spawns standing their silently pounding their fists, then 1 boss spawn who talks. When people realize that and what they can really do with a mission - then we will start seeing much better missions.
[/ QUOTE ]
People are doing that now. The tools are available, if someone chooses not to use them it's not the limitations of the architect that are to blame.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
[ QUOTE ]
[I prefer Robert Louis Stevenson and Arthur Conan Doyle myself.]
[Edit: Forgot Jules Verne.]
Excellent examples. All authors that are admired and left unread by the general public. It's great to name names. But they are not books that the modern public reads and enjoys. There are certainly a minority that do enjoy them.
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You do realize that books aren't the only story-telling method now days? Ever heard of movies? Including those made for T.V.?
Sci-Fi channel did a version of 20,000 Leagues under the Sea. A Christam Carol is played every Holiday Season. PBS has a Mystery Series that includes Sherlock Holmes. They run these things because people are still interested in the stories.
The term "Classic" refers to stories that somehow transcend the time and place they were written. They touch on some fundamental aspect of human nature that doesn't change, which makes the main theme of the story pertinent even in modern times.
If Brevity is the Soul of Wit, Why are You Reading This?
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Ambushes, patrols, defendable objects change the dynamics of a mission.
enemies that talk, npc's that interact - these change the feel of being in a mission.
A mission should not be 19 standard spawns standing their silently pounding their fists, then 1 boss spawn who talks. When people realize that and what they can really do with a mission - then we will start seeing much better missions.
[/ QUOTE ]
People are doing that now. The tools are available, if someone chooses not to use them it's not the limitations of the architect that are to blame.
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Well there is a limitation though. That being the fact of a 100k file size. Sure, you can use common enemies and tell a story and add a lot of dialogue to them to make that story more alive.
However, if you want to tell a unique story that needs to have custom characters in it you are forced to give up a lot of text you could be adding based on how many different custom characters you create.
There are limitations on defendable, destructable, collectable items so far as the selection available goes. Sometimes you can't find exactly what you need to use for the story and have to save custom text to work around these limited item sets. For example, I have a magical portal that needs to be destroyed in my arc.. however there is no portal destructable object. I ended up writing around it that the altar forms the portal above it and using custom text to describe that happening.
I would have rather had that text be used to flesh out the custom characters in the arc but with the arc at 97% there isn't to much more I could do.
Now six months from now we might have a max file size that is double what we have now. We will almost certainly have more variety in objects that can be used for the various objectives. We might have the ability to specifically place certain objects/encounters on a map to make the story flow better rather than letting the MA select from possible spawn points. We might actually have tile sets to create our own custom maps that will work far better for our stories than the map choices we have to work around now. Who knows...
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[I prefer Robert Louis Stevenson and Arthur Conan Doyle myself.]
[Edit: Forgot Jules Verne.]
Excellent examples. All authors that are admired and left unread by the general public. It's great to name names. But they are not books that the modern public reads and enjoys. There are certainly a minority that do enjoy them.
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You do realize that books aren't the only story-telling method now days? Ever heard of movies? Including those made for T.V.?
Sci-Fi channel did a version of 20,000 Leagues under the Sea. A Christam Carol is played every Holiday Season. PBS has a Mystery Series that includes Sherlock Holmes. They run these things because people are still interested in the stories.
The term "Classic" refers to stories that somehow transcend the time and place they were written. They touch on some fundamental aspect of human nature that doesn't change, which makes the main theme of the story pertinent even in modern times.
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So you are agreeing with me.
People don't read Jules Verne. The idea is kept but redone in a different form with new technology, new dialog, and probably even a revamped story.
Thank you for providing a great example of what I have been saying.
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"Because good storytelling is timeless."
that's just not true.
read any 19th century classic - they are terrible to read now.
storytelling is a skill and style which develops over time.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is kinda hard to equate. I guess the follow up question to ask is, 'What would 19th century people think of the style of storytelling that is prevelant now?' Classics aside (Honore De Balzac for honorable mention), I think the current style of storytelling is more relevant to what we are experiencing now. Talking about nuclear war is probably going to turn more heads than talking about a kid trying to get back his goat.
To the OP. I think people will get better with the tools as time moves on. However- things like good stories will probably remain in about the same amount of supply as is currently present.
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"Because good storytelling is timeless."
that's just not true for me.
read any 19th century classic - they are terrible for me to read now.
storytelling is a skill and style which develops over time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fixed that for you. Lots of people still read and enjoy stuff from the 19th century, just like some people enjoy reading comics from the 40s.
in 6 months we hopefully will have 2 patches. But perhaps more importantly we will have 6 months of learning what can be done in MA.
Are our arcs now:
about as good as they will be in 6 months?
noticeably worse but not embarrassingly so?
embarrassingly bad?
I am guessing that today's arcs will look embarrassingly bad in 6 months. The best ones may just be noticeably worse.
But I suspect that we will come up with enough tricks and new features that 6 month old MA content will be like playing through the Striga arcs (not another kill all in a boat)