New Super Group Rank: Super Leader! ~Discussion~
By
300_below,
Posted on: 2009-04-03 08:46 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
I believe at the conception of this, the Devs thought we were all mature enough to handle this easily amongst our current Leadership. The very instructions given in the I14 Release Notice indicate this line of thought.
They figured; "You know, these Base Construction types are on the ball. They should be able to talk to their Leaders and among themselves elect a spokesperson, and continue on status quo."
(Forgive me Devs if I am putting words in your mouths).
What can not be accounted for, are the peeps out there just to wreck another persons fun. Some folks just seem to exist to cause other people misery. If one such has been elevated to a Leadership Position in your SG, you need to hope and pray that he/she doesn't get the Red/Gold Star.
Most Groups should be able to do what I feel the Devs intended, by working it out as just a "Legislative" Rank, and carry on status quo. It only requires discussion before this thing hits, and everyone making a decision as to who should wear the Red/Gold Star.
Asking my current Leaders to quit the SG, so that I'm the only Leader there is IMO a crazy strategy to say the least.
It will work, in most established groups.
It works fine for Solo Groups.
There are some with Leadership Issues that will have a problem.
I would like a Thread started on the Base Construction Forum for all SG/VG's that get Hijacked as a result of this, to report their situation.
Mod8, Please don't axe the thread. (Not telling you how to do your job, just a request 
).
I'm interested to see just how many groups are going to suffer profound devestation as a result of this change.
I think the number of Posts will be small.
I might wind up being surprised...time will tell.
I will start the thread the Day I14 goes live, or someone else can start it.
It would just be nice to see what the ramifications of the change actually are.
Black-Strike: lvl 50 AR/Dark Corruptor
Brutally Beautiful: lvl 50 BA/Inv Brute
Seared Earth: lvl 50 EC/EA Dominator
Yashi Onuku: lvl 50 Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu Stalker
Death-Widow: lvl 50 Night Widow
I actually like this. Our SG's founder has stepped down from day-to-day leadership duties (like recruiting) but still acts as our base editor, as a mentor to the other leaders and the members, and as a negotiator in SG disagreements. We wanted to create a "Founder" rank for him as the top rank, but couldn't do it without having all the other leaders quit the SG and rejoin. Now he'll have the rank he deserves and we won't have to go through the hassle of reformatting all our ranks. Thanks, NC!
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I actually like this. Our SG's founder has stepped down from day-to-day leadership duties (like recruiting) but still acts as our base editor, as a mentor to the other leaders and the members, and as a negotiator in SG disagreements. We wanted to create a "Founder" rank for him as the top rank, but couldn't do it without having all the other leaders quit the SG and rejoin. Now he'll have the rank he deserves and we won't have to go through the hassle of reformatting all our ranks. Thanks, NC!
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Nice. I wish I could do that. I tried it for a time when I was finishing up school for a few months. Was all well and fine but then one of the co-leaders in the SG, who I view as a friend still, stepped up and was recruiting and stuff.
It would have been all fine but then alot of people in the group started viewing me as nothing and only looking towards him. My SG had its first major drama problem since we were created back when coh went live.
Its all pretty much fixed now but boy did it suck. Its nice to see that it can work that way without it blowing up in everyones faces. lolz.
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Why dont you put in a VOTE system to elect the super leader? Give the current leaders a vote each. Tied voting means no super leader.
I mean, we are all about democracy right? :P
This way any SG politics would not affect customer service - CS would just have to worry about if the voting system works or not.
Upsen.
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A democracy doesn't vote to put all the power into one person's hands, because once you do that, you're no longer a democracy. When all the power is in one person's hands (whether it was voted on or not), you have a dictatorship.
I know there were problems with the old system, but the new system simply creates all new problems, some of which are worse than the problems this 'fix' was intended to remedy. Lemme guess, the guy who revamped pvp came up with the superleader idea, right?
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In the current system, no one can demote someone who is at their same level, and there is no self demotion.
Adding in a "sole" Superleader to the SG system allows for leadership disputes to be solved within the SG themselves, as there is now a level that can demote the current "leader" level. If the Superleader no longer wants to be Superleader, they just need to promote someone else to Superleader, and they will demote themselves in the process.
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Pardon me for resorting to a cliche, Positron, but...
Baby. Bathwater.
This new system will perhaps do what you seek. However, it will have a huge number of new issues all its own.
If you wanted self-demote, why didn't you just put that in? If that turned out to not be enough, then you could have further complicated things.
If you wanted same-level demote, why not address the things that makes someone a "bad leader" and gets in a position to be demoted? Such as a tracking system to keep people more honest. (like how you created an audit trail to help protect storage, but still don't have one for SG rosters.)
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In the current system, no one can demote someone who is at their same level, and there is no self demotion.
Adding in a "sole" Superleader to the SG system allows for leadership disputes to be solved within the SG themselves, as there is now a level that can demote the current "leader" level. If the Superleader no longer wants to be Superleader, they just need to promote someone else to Superleader, and they will demote themselves in the process.
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Pardon me for resorting to a cliche, Positron, but...
Baby. Bathwater.
This new system will perhaps do what you seek. However, it will have a huge number of new issues all its own.
If you wanted self-demote, why didn't you just put that in? If that turned out to not be enough, then you could have further complicated things.
If you wanted same-level demote, why not address the things that makes someone a "bad leader" and gets in a position to be demoted? Such as a tracking system to keep people more honest. (like how you created an audit trail to help protect storage, but still don't have one for SG rosters.)
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well what's wrong with the person who created the SG holding onto the "superleader" position?
Just because someone took five minutes to go to Galaxy or Atlas and type in the SG name doesn't make them a leader. The person or people who do the heavy lifting are the leaders. I guess it depends on your definition of what makes someone that leader.
It's the person who does the admin stuff, who teams and knows the members of the SG. It's not someone who rarely teams or doesn't know or care about the members. It's not the person who only tells everyone what they should be doing. It's the guy/girl who is recruiting, promoting, helping their teammates.
If the founder is involved and acts like a leader then the SG can give them the SuperLeader spot. If the Founder is only the founder because they had the initial concept but they don't bother to follow through? Then, they're just another member and don't deserve any special treatment.
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Just because someone took five minutes to go to Galaxy or Atlas and type in the SG name doesn't make them a leader. The person or people who do the heavy lifting are the leaders. I guess it depends on your definition of what makes someone that leader.
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perhaps a better example than questioning one person's leadership is to question how you treat others who do just as much. If 3 people *together* were to decide to start a SG, why should only 1 of them be singled out for a special position? Is that fair to the other two?
I guess if someone wanted to crusade for system flag called "guy who typed in the SG name" then that's accurate....
I shared my opinions about this SL thing back when it first leaked and I've seen nothing that changes my thoughts on it.
I wish you/they could have come up with something different.
It's not going to cause any foreseeable problems for me or the group I am a part of, but I don't only dislike things that would adversely affect myself.
If you wanted self demote (Hey, we'd like to see it as well), put it in.
If you wanted a designated SG/CS Liaison, put it in.
If you want to give players a means of demoting a Rank 5... Put it in! (Rank 5 members could call a Rank 5 Demote Vote and their votes would create or prevent the demotion).
It would have been better not to mix these things up into a "Super Leader" rank.
If people/players/customers have an issue where they would like to demote/kick another Rank 5 Leader, but cannot... Then that means there is potential that there will be situations in which people will have a problem with the one sole person that has the Rank 6 Super Leader designation.
So, what then?
Add in a Rank 7 for eliminating this problem? 
Mandating that a single SG member must have kicking and demoting abilities above all other SG members goes against what has stood as individually customizable SG Leadership options.
There's no argument or discussion about that.
It is what it is.
I just think it would have been better to implement the things you wanted without creating a potentially worse problem...
A situation in which someone unwanted and/or unworthy becomes the SL and damages/destroys other people's fun.
Again, if there are situations where some SG's wish to get a current Rank 5 out of there, why wouldn't there be a situation where an SG wishes that a certain Rank 5 didn't become the Rank 6?
Bring in the Rank 7's!
And then in Issue 16, we can have Rank 8's!
At least... If you insist on the Rank 6... Implement a voting system that Rank 5 Leaders use to create the Sole Rank 6 member AND for forced demotion from Rank 6 (If the matter comes to such things).
Ah well, I suppose I could just go and relax in my very happy and comfortable SG where I don't fear any such problems... Even though we use are a group of multiple leaders.
And yes, this post is littered with a bit of humor. No, I'm not paranoid and yes, they are out to get us all.
Seriously though, I'm just expressing my opinions one more time (Since it had ben a while on this subject).
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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If you've got a real problem, you should be man enough to put your name behind a petition and follow through with it.
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Who would they /petition against? The players have no record, which leaves CS to tell the player "too bad, go join another group". Not a good enough answer.
I don't have any problem writing a /petition if someone is griefing me.
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Who would CS talk to if there were an auto-petition generated? They'd have a much better chance of picking the wrong leader (if there were multiples) than the one with the problem.
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As others have said: there is a record of the person doing the booting in the system logs. I doubt that they'd get the wrong person. I don't believe the CS team is full of people that cannot read.
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The following should have been put in place:
Auto message to those being removed from a group stating the global account doing the removal, the character name doing the removal, and the time of removal.
SG log stating the character name of the person doing the booting, time of removal, and the character name being removed from the group. This log should be separate from the other activity logs (storage interaction).
This way CS and the rest of the group do not have to sift through mounds of data to determine who did what.
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These are separate issues from what the SL rank is supposed to address.
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These address problems that the new rank makes worse. Again, the cart has been placed before the horse.
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And if anything, they should be put in just for the players to do the investigative work themselves first. CS shouldn't be first on the list to work out anything, unless it's a bug. SG problems are not bugs.
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And it isn't my job to make theirs easier at my expense. I am paying NCsoft money to provide a service. I have a problem with them offloading their work onto me.
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Wow, an SG isn't a right of passage if you get kicked you move on there are other nice SG's. Also the SL would help minimize all this being booted stuff since only one person would have total say in what goes on.
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At least... If you insist on the Rank 6... Implement a voting system that Rank 5 Leaders use to create the Sole Rank 6 member AND for forced demotion from Rank 6 (If the matter comes to such things).
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Only problem here is that this too can be abused.
If a Rank 6 has done absolutely nothing wrong, and the Rank 5's decide to Mutiny, and Force-Demote-Kick him; Is that Fair?
No matter what they do, some peeps will find a way to use it against the purpose it was intended for.
One man's perfect fix is another man's nightmare.
Black-Strike: lvl 50 AR/Dark Corruptor
Brutally Beautiful: lvl 50 BA/Inv Brute
Seared Earth: lvl 50 EC/EA Dominator
Yashi Onuku: lvl 50 Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu Stalker
Death-Widow: lvl 50 Night Widow
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Wow, an SG isn't a right of passage if you get kicked you move on there are other nice SG's. Also the SL would help minimize all this being booted stuff since only one person would have total say in what goes on.
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"help minimize all this being booted stuff" by increasing one person's boot capabilities. That's a change, but not necessarily a fix.
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One man's perfect fix is another man's nightmare.
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Which is why the real solution would be to emphasis who gets promoted, and how, and what they are accountable for.
Including, but not limited to...<ul type="square">[*]knowing more about the people you plan to promote (ie: logging how they use the permissions they already have; better stat tracking.)[*]knowing more about what your leaders are doing while you're offline (which is important both to the co-leaders, and to the non-leaders seeing what the higher-ups are doing)[*]making sure the leaders know that they are being tracked and logged (consider how storage logging acts as a deterrent)[*]giving SGs better communication, including things like: communicating the SG's bylaws; ways for leaders to share notes; email to the whole roster; ways of reaching a leader by their SG name.[*]giving better ways to share some power without all-or-nothing nature of promotions (the new storage permission helps one example of this greatly. we need similar setups for base editing, and a few other functions)[*]offline rank management[*]protection against accidental promotion (shoulda come in the game when we got Kick confirmation a short time ago)[*]informing players what happened to their characters on the roster while they were offline (who kicked you when you weren't looking, and when?)[*]lessening the damage from griefing, or easier recovery. (eg, preservation of Join On and Prestige if you are removed from the roster; a log of who was kicked and a way to easily re-invite them)[/list]The devs *should* have given us a decent SG Management Overhaul in this issue. Instead, we got this Rank 6 change that might net out to a negative for many groups.
The irony is that the things I listed above might have added up to less actual code than Rank 6, if they'd put in a bit of design thought first.
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At least... If you insist on the Rank 6... Implement a voting system that Rank 5 Leaders use to create the Sole Rank 6 member AND for forced demotion from Rank 6 (If the matter comes to such things).
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Only problem here is that this too can be abused.
If a Rank 6 has done absolutely nothing wrong, and the Rank 5's decide to Mutiny, and Force-Demote-Kick him; Is that Fair?
No matter what they do, some peeps will find a way to use it against the purpose it was intended for.
One man's perfect fix is another man's nightmare.
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I should add to the idea I suggested that, if there is only one Rank 5 Leader (The highest rank now), there is no vote and all... That Rank 5 Leader is now the Super Leader and there need be no other Rank 5 members until/unless that SL decides to promote any.
When and if there are other members promoted to Rank 5, then there could be a possible mutiny.
Otherwise, why would a single leader SG need to have any Rank 5's to worry about a possibly mutiny?
And, if enough such ranked members do believe that is best... then either they should not have been given Rank 5 or they are performing their duty and doing what is best for the SG over all.
That is not "abuse" that would be a functional usage of the system.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
I agree with you 100% that all these things are very much needed in SG's.
But the Main Focus of I14 was on Architect, not Bases.
They already had their hands full when they decided to give us Storage Permissions and Rank 6.
I also agree that they should have thought about Rank 6 a little further before implementing it. I disagree with the way the Initial Rank 6 is selected.
I truly think they should have held the Rank 6 change for I15, and thought about it more, or just did some of the things you, and many of us have suggested in the past.
They tried to give us a little something to tide us over til another Issue Release, I think.
Permissions are great, but Rank 6 is iffy; as it can have a completely different effect on a SG depending upon their current state of affairs.
I'm just hoping they will give us some of the stuff we HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR in I15.
Black-Strike: lvl 50 AR/Dark Corruptor
Brutally Beautiful: lvl 50 BA/Inv Brute
Seared Earth: lvl 50 EC/EA Dominator
Yashi Onuku: lvl 50 Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu Stalker
Death-Widow: lvl 50 Night Widow
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When and if there are other members promoted to Rank 5, then there could be a possible mutiny.
Otherwise, why would a single leader SG need to have any Rank 5's to worry about a possibly mutiny?
And, if enough such ranked members do believe that is best... then either they should not have been given Rank 5 or they are performing their duty and doing what is best for the SG over all.
That is not "abuse" that would be a functional usage of the system.
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Many SG's already have multiple Rank 5's.
If Forced Demotion, opening up the opportunity for Forced Kicking existed, then it could very well be abused.
Rank 5 Leader "A" takes offense at a comment made by the Rank 6. It was an innocent comment, not meant to be taken the way "A" took it.
Leader "A" waits until Rank 6 is not online, and talks to Leader "B, C, and D". He blows the whole thing out of proportion, and rallies the other Leaders to Force Demote Rank 6. Someone else automatically gets Rank 6. New Rank 6 kicks original Rank 6.
That is just one example I can think of. People misunderstand other people everyday, just look at these Forums for proof of that.
I have said before, if someone gets elevated to a Leadership position in a well structured SG, the Leaders should be more than mature enough, and competent enough to let the little things slide.
Unfortunately, all SG's don't opperate in this way.
So your suggested System can be abused.
However, I do agree with the first part, about a Leadership Vote on who initially recieves Rank 6.
That would be much better than leaving it to the "Luck of the Log Time" so to speak.
Thanks.
Black-Strike: lvl 50 AR/Dark Corruptor
Brutally Beautiful: lvl 50 BA/Inv Brute
Seared Earth: lvl 50 EC/EA Dominator
Yashi Onuku: lvl 50 Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu Stalker
Death-Widow: lvl 50 Night Widow
Here is a thought, why not make the founder the super leader, if they are no longer a member make the oldest member the leader. Would that make too much sense? but the last one to log on??? come on get real, if the one who should be leader cant logon because of Whatever reason isnt made the leader is pretty lame. I think the persone who is the oldest member and is a current leader should be the super leader. but then again that would make way too much sense. and we cant have that now can we?????
Makes me glad I have a self-sufficient one-man SG. This rank crap has been a non-issue for me and will continue to be. 
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Here is a thought, why not make the founder the super leader, if they are no longer a member make the oldest member the leader. Would that make too much sense? but the last one to log on??? come on get real, if the one who should be leader cant logon because of Whatever reason isnt made the leader is pretty lame. I think the persone who is the oldest member and is a current leader should be the super leader. but then again that would make way too much sense. and we cant have that now can we?????
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as much as I hate the whole Rank 6 setup... go re-read the description.
it's not simply the last, there's a 24 hour tiebreaker, then it goes to oldest.
so it does go to the oldest member, as long as they proved they're active by being logged on within the 24 hour tiebreaker window.
in other words, they sign in today (assuming our release notice holds up) and you have what you want. is that log in too much work compared to the work the oldest member has done leading the SG already?
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But the Main Focus of I14 was on Architect, not Bases.
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we've got a nice list of non-MA stuff already. every issue has plenty of other additions. For example, consider the effort they put into the arena system this issue.
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They already had their hands full when they decided to give us Storage Permissions and Rank 6.
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Was that really "full"? Most of the things I mentioned are small, discrete items. For example, logging has messages in the system already, all it would take is stashing them to a text file and putting a button somewhere to see that file.
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I'm just hoping they will give us some of the stuff we HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR in I15.
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Most of what I listed has been asked for a lot longer than just now. Same way those better storage permissions were asked for when storage was first added. We got storage now because (if you're an optimist) the salvage storage change forced the issue, (and if your a pessimist) they were in there anyways as part of fixing the base item overflow issues.
So maybe I15 logic does hold, since messing up leadership structures may cause all sorts of troubles they simply have to fix with better leadership tools.
I can understand the reasoning behind the Superleader concept. I could wish that it were an optional thing for a supergroup to have, however; our supergroup has been active since the early days of City of Heroes, and we began with, and have always maintained, a group leadership. I do not *want* to outrank my fellow five leaders, nor do I wish them to outrank me. I like the way we've developed as it is. We've met a lot of great folks, many of whom have joined our supergroups. Several members have created their own affiliated supergroups, and we've all created heroes to join each of those to support each other.
One of the aspects of CoH that I have always preferred to playing a game like WoW is that the competition is a much gentler thing. I'm in no way trying to bash WoW - it's a good game - but I prefer the attitudes I run into in CoH.
I'm usually in the vanguard of the "Give this a chance before you squawk" brigade, but this time I have to say: Can't we please have the option to leave this alone? I'm already seeing this impact a couple of folks, and I simply don't want to mess with the status quo.
I must be in some really weird supergroups if everyone is worried about this new rank...I don't think ANY of my SGs are going to be impacted at all, even those with multiple co-leaders. It's just a rank. It doesn't mean much beyond that to any of us.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Again, why not?
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It would be nice to have an self-demote, but maybe their system won't play nice with it. *shrug*
Unless you mean the GM call - as to that, I can think of no situation which auto-generates a petition without the player starting it.
And as for using the auto-demote to self-demote, I also should not be forced to NOT play a character.
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you wouldnt be forced to not play that character you would be just working on that day job!
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I can work on Day Jobs on character's I am actively playing. After all, I am not perma-logged in
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Dude, I wasn't saying that the things you listed had just been asked for. I know they have been asked for already.
All I was saying is I hope things like those you listed, and other things that have been asked for repeatedly get some attention soon.
Black-Strike: lvl 50 AR/Dark Corruptor
Brutally Beautiful: lvl 50 BA/Inv Brute
Seared Earth: lvl 50 EC/EA Dominator
Yashi Onuku: lvl 50 Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu Stalker
Death-Widow: lvl 50 Night Widow
I don't pretend to know why people are freaking out over the new rank. It seems that it could be a benefit for some and not for others which happens in every MMO.
My question is, if the 'Super Leader' can demote themselves down, why not establish a round robin for the rank? This is where the founding members all get the title for a specified time. It is not saying that the Super Leader works harder or does more or is more well liked, it is just using it as a spot light of sorts to bring that founder into the spot light for a specified amount of time chosen by the other leaders.
This solution however does require a large level of trust. If you are worried that a founder or co leader will abuse their time as Super Leader, then this would not be a good solution for you.