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Yeah the problem....our problem...is that we might not get to the point where this game is finally fixed to the point of actual playability. We seem to agree that it will take them like a year to fix even something as simple as elusivity. With those new games coming out, there isn't even a guarantee that this game will be alive in a year. It's currently still a cash cow for NCSoft. I believe it's the second biggest source of revenue behind GuildWars. But the upcoming competiton will surely change that.
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Definitely. I don't think playing dress up with our toons and now enemy toons is enough to maintain any kind of sustainable competitive advantage.
MA seems like it could be a golden ticket, but the current edition of it is pretty weak. I don't think they have years to improve it either.
Every 'feature' in this game is only half complete whether it be pvp, base building, modding, raiding, loot, market etc. Not every game offers everything that cox does, but cox doesn't do a good job on anything it does offer, so unless you take advantage of a ton of their packages we will likely find better games elsewhere.
The only thing holding me back right now is that I really like supers and I have played so much fantasy games in the past that they don't interest me anymore. I suspect a lot of people are like me and just waiting for either CO or DCUO .
The dev i13 vision of "everything the same" is now spilling over into pve too which has people getting pretty fired up. I'm sure if Castle could he'd jam DR into the pve game too.
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I always beleived what we got in i13 PvP was Castles design for the PvE game, a testbed so to speak, his previous posts over the years always had him leaning towards such things as diminishing returns (oh how he hates stacking forcefeilds, full strength for the first, 5% for each other was his preference) just he lacks the muscle to push forward such a swg moment for NCsoft. Problem is hes not a big picture man, hes a number crunching minutae man and cant design by "feel", PvP needed work but where a bolder designer would have changed each power on "feels right" and adjust as it goes Castle would have to have every damn number checked and rechecked a hundred times which is why we got his overriding "game laws" which just ** over everyone with no rhyme or reason
"Im a regen scrapper, watch my regen supress itself if I go into combat"
"Im a storm troller, my main DEFENCE is hurricane, but hey Castle thinks it offensive and with no mez protection my whole PvP experience is just a game of retoggling"
"Im a WP player, please see above"
"Im a energy melee player, why does energy transfer do only 65% of flurry? Its not even a fast attack anymore...."
"Im a kinetic defender, motion is my business, watch as my inertia reduction....um supresses my movement....."
The list is endless but castles laws are laws and apply to all regardless of sense
COH needs a new management team, not necessarily new devs but certainly management of them that doesnt see it as "them Vs the players" it worked for Age of Conan and COH are going to have a VERY nasty shock when their niche is well and truely opened up, CO will hurt COH and DCU will smack it silly just on the basis of the "inspired by system" actively encourages homages as opposed to the generic stick.
Someone convince me why it's bad that elusivity reduced to 10% is bad backed with numbers. 10% elusivity is better then no elusivity.
it's not like they took away your defense. and defense isn't as lawls since they nerfed the biggest culprit to destroying defense pre i13, Focused Accuracy, to what 6% tohit? throw in the fact that squishies have resistance to everything(which they shouldnt) and melees have resistance to all debuffs sans end drain(which they shouldn't) coupled with -range.
seems to me everyone is in the same ball park.
it would seem that the people who have the most to lose from the elusivity nerf are peeps with pff, which ya'll should have known it was gonna get hit with the nerf bat.
what about the people with frozen armor, scorpion shield, etc? i didnt see much of them running around pre i13. adding elusivity to them was just a bonus crutch we all liked.
[ QUOTE ]
Someone convince me why it's bad that elusivity reduced to 10% is bad backed with numbers. 10% elusivity is better then no elusivity.
it's not like they took away your defense. and defense isn't as lawls since they nerfed the biggest culprit to destroying defense pre i13, Focused Accuracy, to what 6% tohit? throw in the fact that squishies have resistance to everything(which they shouldnt) and melees have resistance to all debuffs sans end drain(which they shouldn't) coupled with -range.
seems to me everyone is in the same ball park.
it would seem that the people who have the most to lose from the elusivity nerf are peeps with pff, which ya'll should have known it was gonna get hit with the nerf bat.
what about the people with frozen armor, scorpion shield, etc? i didnt see much of them running around pre i13. adding elusivity to them was just a bonus crutch we all liked.
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Elusivity is a crap idea, another mechanic laid over the game to counter addinging DR to defence, why the hell bother adding DR anyway? From my understanding defence protects from the bottom up and "elusivity" from the top down so the more likely you are to hit through defence the less likely you will land because of elusivity. WHY? PB + aim and BU should be like landing free hits, thats the point of those powers (I dont play blasters btw) Because of the two systems the ideal solution for people attacking is to roll "average" rolls in the hope of landing between defence and elusivity. This sums up the whole "castle approach" nothing shines, everyone should aim for average.
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10% elusivity is better then no elusivity.
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Not really. I mean sure, it is...but that's like saying that a car that goes 110mph is faster than a car that goes 109mph. Sure it is...but the difference is completely meaningless. Just like elusivity is going to be.
Right now, a person could use BU and have a 10% chance of hitting a defense toon. Clearly overpowered to the point of brokenness.
After I14, a person could use BU and have 95% chance of hitting a defense toon. Again, broken. Defense shouldn't be god mode, but it also shouldn't be a complete joke. Why is it so hard to actually do what they OFFICIALLY SAID they were going to do? Adjust it SLIGHTLY. Instead of cutting it by 2/3.
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Not really. I mean sure, it is...but that's like saying that a car that goes 110mph is faster than a car that goes 109mph. Sure it is...but the difference is completely meaningless. Just like elusivity is going to be.
Right now, a person could use BU and have a 10% chance of hitting a defense toon. Clearly overpowered to the point of brokenness.
After I14, a person could use BU and have 95% chance of hitting a defense toon. Again, broken. Defense shouldn't be god mode, but it also shouldn't be a complete joke. Why is it so hard to actually do what they OFFICIALLY SAID they were going to do? Adjust it SLIGHTLY. Instead of cutting it by 2/3.
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is it really that bad?
suppose you have a power with 1.00 ACC.
And you slot it up with 66% acc.
And we'll say after def,tohit and DR you have an overall chance tohit of 31% which i think is tohit cap?.
30% Elusivity
1.66(1-.3)=1.162 x .31 = .3602 (36% chance to hit)
10% Elusivity
1.66(1-.1) = 1.494 x .31 = .4631 (46% chance to hit)
someone tell me if i did this right.
if i did do that right i dont see how that is akin to everyone will have a 95% chance to hit any defense build or getting hit by a 110 mph car or a 109 mph car.
edit: this is of course not figuring IO bonuses to the equation. i'm aware peeps got like 200+. did anyone check if the acc curve was adjusted?
They nerf elusivity this issue so they can introduce Elusitivity IOs and Elusitivity global buffs next issue.
Dark Bard, Zoobait, Debacle
jmsb
Por vezes d� vontade...
chucknorriss
speak american godamnit
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They nerf elusivity this issue so they can introduce Elusitivity IOs and Elusitivity global buffs next issue.
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lol
It would be cool to give the option of a "handicap" to certain players who had less time spent on upgrading a personal character. For instance, the game allowing a sacrifice of health for higher defense yet providing a smaller bonus in relation to existing global bonuses so that "veterans" gain little to no benefit. As it is though, time must be spent to choose how to upgrade. It provides no equalizer in my opinion to just penalize everybody equally. It is what it is anyway. I don't like the idea of a complicated version of "rock, scissors, and paper."
I was there for the SWG debacle, and I can say firsthand that it is unlikely SOE is capable of learning anything.
As to widows, they were f*ing crazy in PvP. What did you expect? What's hilarious is that with these global nerfs I think they got my Crab Spider, which is just about the silliest thing I've heard all week.
Is this damage nerf in PvP only or in PvE as well?
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Is this damage nerf in PvP only or in PvE as well?
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This is all PVP action.
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Not really. I mean sure, it is...but that's like saying that a car that goes 110mph is faster than a car that goes 109mph. Sure it is...but the difference is completely meaningless. Just like elusivity is going to be.
Right now, a person could use BU and have a 10% chance of hitting a defense toon. Clearly overpowered to the point of brokenness.
After I14, a person could use BU and have 95% chance of hitting a defense toon. Again, broken. Defense shouldn't be god mode, but it also shouldn't be a complete joke. Why is it so hard to actually do what they OFFICIALLY SAID they were going to do? Adjust it SLIGHTLY. Instead of cutting it by 2/3.
[/ QUOTE ]
is it really that bad?
suppose you have a power with 1.00 ACC.
And you slot it up with 66% acc.
And we'll say after def,tohit and DR you have an overall chance tohit of 31% which i think is tohit cap?.
30% Elusivity
1.66(1-.3)=1.162 x .31 = .3602 (36% chance to hit)
10% Elusivity
1.66(1-.1) = 1.494 x .31 = .4631 (46% chance to hit)
someone tell me if i did this right.
if i did do that right i dont see how that is akin to everyone will have a 95% chance to hit any defense build or getting hit by a 110 mph car or a 109 mph car.
edit: this is of course not figuring IO bonuses to the equation. i'm aware peeps got like 200+. did anyone check if the acc curve was adjusted?
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Most defense builds short of a T-9 have a 20-35% def (after DR, though most well slotted Forts can get 40ish% with ML). Base To Hit in PvP is 50%. Max bonus To hit is about 30% (you can get slightly more but DR hits the numbers hard after 30%). And though the combat stats don't reflect this I do believe DR affects Accuracy Mods (which is --> {Base Power Acc * (1 + Acc Enh Bonus + Global Acc Bonus)}).
I'll run a few Examples:
Scenario 1
--------------
Issue I-13
Stalker: 25% Ranged Def (after DR) with 30% Elusivity
Blaster: with no To Hit buffs active, Base Power Acc of 1.00x, Acc Enh Bonus of 66% and Global Acc Bonus of 30%. The Acc Mods = 1.00 * (1 + 0.66 + 0.30) = 1.96 (and lets say after DR its 1.80)
Chance to Hit = 1.80 * (1.00 - 0.30) * clamp(50 + 0 - 25) =
31.5%
Scenario 2
--------------
Issue 13 still
Same Blaster and same Stalker, but this time the blaster pops BU and AIM for 30% To Hit (after DR)
Chance to Hit = 1.80 * (1.00 - 0.30) * clamp(50 + 30 - 25) =
69.3%
Scenario 3
--------------
Issue 14 now
Same Blaster and same Stalker, no BU or AIM
Chance to Hit = 1.80 * (1.00 - 0.10) * clamp(50 + 0 - 25) =
40.5%
Scenario 4
--------------
Issue 14 again
Same Blaster and same Stalker, blaster pops BU and AIM for 30% To Hit (after DR) again.
Chance to Hit = 1.80 * (1.00 - 0.10) * clamp(50 + 30 - 25) =
89.1%
As you can see the change to Elusivity can make a HUGE difference (31.5% to 40.5% without To Hit buffs and 69.3% to 89.1% with To Hit Buffs). BTW with no Elusivity the numbers would be 45% and 95%. Now I do believe 30% Elusivity was too OP, but 10% may not be enough.
before anyone jumps in and says something about aim+bu being used recall that the dr tohit cap is ~30% and most builds can hit about 25% pretty easily. All builds w/ aim can hit the limit.
Additionally since i13 most pvp'ers have been building for excessive acc bonuses (both in power and global) to even have a hope of hitting def toons. A power slotted with 80% acc and the build having 70% global acc is not uncommon.
These toons and the ones several tiers below in build power will be hitting most def toons easily. Def is once again not going to be very effective except likely even worse than in i12.
This is because in i12 you could get def so high that only a few solo builds could hit you (namely blasters, but some others), or they would need team buffs (ie pb'd fort). However, in i13 (aka everyone is the same) almost any build will be able to generate enough tohit+acc to hit def toons while solo.
or at least that's what the numbers are indicating for any mediocre to good pvp build when I look at them.
scenario 1 and 3 isnt a big deal.
scenario 2 is manageable.
however scenario 4 has cause for concern.
but there are a bunch of other variables that leads me to believe that defense based survivability is still greater then it was in i12 because of:
i12 dmg vs i14 dmg
resists to all dmg types
global res for squishies
taunts -range
ts
Finally my warshade will be viable! 
VIRTUE
Agahnim- Elec/Ice Blaster
"Elec/Ice. Nice. Holy <@*&$@#!> =) You're like the CoH equivalent of those bdsm people who hang from the ceiling on hooks!"
-Plasmar
Agahnim Dragmire- Warshade
"(You spin space webs. =D)"
-Paladin
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This is because in i12 you could get def so high that only a few solo builds could hit you (namely blasters, but some others), or they would need team buffs (ie pb'd fort). However, in i13 (aka everyone is the same) almost any build will be able to generate enough tohit+acc to hit def toons while solo.
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I dont believe the same i12 builds, i.e. Fire Blasters, can generate the same kind of dmg now, that when facing a def based toon made it instakill. they'll have to work at it.
if anything defense based toons i think would be worried more about melees, mainly SS, because of there dmg potential if they are able to hit.
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With those new games coming out, there isn't even a guarantee that this game will be alive in a year. It's currently still a cash cow for NCSoft. I believe it's the second biggest source of revenue behind GuildWars. But the upcoming competiton will surely change that.
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Definitely. I don't think playing dress up with our toons and now enemy toons is enough to maintain any kind of sustainable competitive advantage.
MA seems like it could be a golden ticket, but the current edition of it is pretty weak. I don't think they have years to improve it either.
Every 'feature' in this game is only half complete whether it be pvp, base building, modding, raiding, loot, market etc. Not every game offers everything that cox does, but cox doesn't do a good job on anything it does offer, so unless you take advantage of a ton of their packages we will likely find better games elsewhere.
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I think you're dramatically underestimating the advantage a game has when it has been out for 5 years. It's true that newer games will have new graphics engines and are designed for things like power customization that will require tremendous effort to achieve in this engine. But any 1.0 version of an MMO is going to have tons of shortcomings and balance issues and a fairly shallow pool of content compared to when that same game has been out for a couple of years. And if you think CO and DCUO won't have devs equipped with nerf bats, you're an amazingly optimistic person.
WRT to the MA, what we have now is just a 1.0 release. What's there already is good, and it'll get better.
The most important game-changer is the additional staff that they hired on. And they are still hiring. I manage a software team for a living and I can tell you the difference you can make when you grow a team the way they've grown theirs is HUGE. The product I manage has more than a million lines of code. It takes a smart programmer typically about 6 months before they can make meaningful contributions. I expect it's about the same with COH. A lot of the hiring was done in the last half of last year so I'd expect the payoff to come in the second half of this year. Time will tell.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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before anyone jumps in and says something about aim+bu being used recall that the dr tohit cap is ~30% and most builds can hit about 25% pretty easily. All builds w/ aim can hit the limit.
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Is the DR curve for To Hit the same for every AT? The only thing I tested when i13 came out was defense (I was too lazy/disappointed to test anything else). I assumed all things affected by DR depended on AT.
I never had an issue fighting someone with elusivity on regular shields, but the elusivity in the tier 9 and PFF is what needed to be addressed. I know most players can hit my widow before elude, but after I hit it is like 3 min of safe mode. They should have fixed that first before doing a game wide Elusivity change IMO.
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
Good thing my Crab and Wolf damage is getting nerfed. The zones were getting overrun with Crab and Wolf Spiders trying to copy my awesome DPS.
Look at the bright side. All the night widows and forts will die just as easily as you do! Or wait...actually your crab will be like 5 times more survivable. LOL.
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Good thing my Crab and Wolf damage is getting nerfed. The zones were getting overrun with Crab and Wolf Spiders trying to copy my awesome DPS.
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OMG YEAH MAN.
I USED TO RUN 8 DOMINATOR SQUADS IN RV YO.
WE USED TO BE DA BOMB.
ME AND MY 7 DOMINATOR BUDDIES. ALWAYS IN RV.
...oh wait.
big [censored] lie.
i've never seen more than 3 doms at the same time in RV.
...and i've never seen less than 8 stalkers in RV during prime-time.
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I never had an issue fighting someone with elusivity on regular shields, but the elusivity in the tier 9 and PFF is what needed to be addressed. I know most players can hit my widow before elude, but after I hit it is like 3 min of safe mode. They should have fixed that first before doing a game wide Elusivity change IMO.
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yesterday i had the most awesome duel against a widow with elude.
i ran like a [censored] for 3 mins.
wrecked him for the next 3.
and he quit out.
it was GGGGGGGREAT.
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This is because in i12 you could get def so high that only a few solo builds could hit you (namely blasters, but some others), or they would need team buffs (ie pb'd fort). However, in i13 (aka everyone is the same) almost any build will be able to generate enough tohit+acc to hit def toons while solo.
[/ QUOTE ]
I dont believe the same i12 builds, i.e. Fire Blasters, can generate the same kind of dmg now, that when facing a def based toon made it instakill. they'll have to work at it.
if anything defense based toons i think would be worried more about melees, mainly SS, because of there dmg potential if they are able to hit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes you are right, fire blasters aren't 2-3 shotting anymore, but they drastically increased the amount of toons that can 4 shot with damage = activation formula. Bare in mind part of the reason you don't see as many people being insta-vaporized is the free res that they get and those that didn't get it had high def+high elusivity. Def toons have 10% free res - psy users, rad blast, sonic blast, some of the melee sets like SS are going to cream def and so will fire and ice blasters still along with most sets now.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I guess it doesn't really matter as so many def users just hide until their tier 9 is up, so that won't really make much difference, they'll still be pretty hard to hit.
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah the problem....our problem...is that we might not get to the point where this game is finally fixed to the point of actual playability. We seem to agree that it will take them like a year to fix even something as simple as elusivity. With those new games coming out, there isn't even a guarantee that this game will be alive in a year. It's currently still a cash cow for NCSoft. I believe it's the second biggest source of revenue behind GuildWars. But the upcoming competiton will surely change that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely. I don't think playing dress up with our toons and now enemy toons is enough to maintain any kind of sustainable competitive advantage.
MA seems like it could be a golden ticket, but the current edition of it is pretty weak. I don't think they have years to improve it either.
Every 'feature' in this game is only half complete whether it be pvp, base building, modding, raiding, loot, market etc. Not every game offers everything that cox does, but cox doesn't do a good job on anything it does offer, so unless you take advantage of a ton of their packages we will likely find better games elsewhere.
The only thing holding me back right now is that I really like supers and I have played so much fantasy games in the past that they don't interest me anymore. I suspect a lot of people are like me and just waiting for either CO or DCUO .
The dev i13 vision of "everything the same" is now spilling over into pve too which has people getting pretty fired up. I'm sure if Castle could he'd jam DR into the pve game too.