hmmm uh.. yeah: TMBAFCTBR
Too Much Back And Forth Crap To Bother Reading
I have no problem with the devs and their vision. I look at changes as new challenges; I mean come on this game is not exactly HARD to do. One man's gripe is another man .. uhmm joy? I'm just tired of people whining....... so all I see anymore is blah blah blah cry blah blah blah.. so...
/unsigned
[ QUOTE ]
Preach on, but do us a favor and just leave it at preaching in the future, I don't think I could handle your deific touch damaging another aspect of the game like your elusivity idea did to pvp.
Your services as a dev interpreter and personal assistant to the stars is invaluable, so please don't take what I'm saying the wrong way. I really hope you got MMO pvp development out of your system and hopefully the devs don't do another "bring your kid to work and let them run stuff day" in the near future.
[/ QUOTE ]
How could I possibly take it the wrong way that you're basically accusing me of breaking PvP with a suggestion that wasn't actually followed in precisely the way I suggested it needed to be, because otherwise Defense would get too strong.
And having said that, blaming me for Diminishing Returns - which actually interferes with Elusivity and is *most* of the source of defense sets being too powerful in PvP - can't possibly be a bad thing, because even though I never suggested it and never had knowledge of it until after it was implemented, blaming me has the advantage of attempting to pin your substantive ignorance on someone with a proven track record of actually understanding the issues well enough to make you look like an idiot. Seems like a winning strategy right there.
I mean, the fact that the suggestion document is still up on the forums for anyone with a brain to read, and was linked in my sig until just a couple weeks ago (and for the search-challenged its right here), and spells all of this out shouldn't deter you from once again having the audacity to point to words that contradict you and then claiming semantic victory. If you like, I can try to dig up the thread from 2005 where the idea was first openly discussed and you can run a victory lap around it.
Just be aware that while I have certain limits on "defending bedfellows" I have no such limits when it comes to defending against personal attacks directly. And I've been doing it for longer than you've heard of the internet. So if this is your pleasure, draw what passes for your wit and step forward. Otherwise, I would strongly suggest quitting while you are behind, but still in possession of one.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go break the mission maker powers now. Just giving you fair warning in case you need some smelling salts or a defibrilator. I won't specifically try to make the game intolerable for you personally while I do, but if I happen to do so, well we all get lucky sometime.
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lol I think you believe you have far more impact than you actually do. Defibrilator, smelling salts; I have to give you points for your sense of humor. I do find your personal threats quite intimidating, like the blue jay that sits outside and squawks at me on weekends
gj throwing Castle or whoever is responsible for DR under the bus and suggesting he is unable to properly balance elusivity in all its complexity and DR. Bite the hand that feeds you right off... I'm well aware they didn't use your exact numbers, hopefully the reported 10% it has been set to now (cough, might as well be 0 ) works a bit better.
Forgive me if that isn't the correct value, I haven't pvp'd in months now since that pond was poisoned.
Anyway, just because I can build a house doesn't mean I should build the city bridge. Do me a personal favor and don't use pvp as a testbed for your ideas anymore. You're a beloved pve asset (yes even by me) but I don't ask my dentist to transplant my kidney. Pve can be completely governed by spreadsheets as it is entirely static. PvP is a fluid an ever-evolving creature. You need to live it to know it and you need to know it to improve it and then you dig into the numbers. PvP is similar across all games so knowledge is generally transferable.
The problem is you don't understand pvp and neither does Castle which is why it has tanked. Maybe your elusivity legacy can be salvaged in pvp, but the newest patch seems to be leaning toward its removal.
You are a pve expert, maybe the most knowledgeable non-red name active, but that is where the train stops. I think I speak for most of the long time pvp'ers that bailed recently in that we didn't presume to know what was best for your area of the game and we would have appreciated if you had shown the same level of respect.
On a more personal note, you must be pretty dang old. I remember using the internet in grade 8 or 9 (gulp 14 yrs ago. I'm too old to be playing games still 
)and it was pretty new then for the general public. Then again I did live in smaller area, so maybe some places already had it for a while.
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PvP is a fluid an ever-evolving creature.
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Just to point out something I personally boggle at every single time an argument like this comes up...
If PVP is a 'fluid, ever-evolving creature', then why do people throw hissy-fits every single time the devs change it?
My personal theory is that the game can evolve, but the players can't. Almost every change is fought tooth and nail, especially if (Heavens forbid) it's done in the name of 'balance'.
I don't agree with every change to this game in a general sense, and I'm still not sure how I feel about PVP, but I do know one thing: If the game changes, I shrug and adapt as long as it's still fun. When it isn't, I leave, or focus on the aspects I do find fun.
Is that really so hard of a concept?
(WARNING: This post contains more then the daily recommended dose of random musings. It may or may not be serious, or some parts may be more serious then others. The author knows full-well that a percentage of the playerbase [any playerbase - PVE, PVP, whatever] are never accurately represented anywhere in their forms, especially not on an internet forum, but feels that for the purpose of random musings, generalites work better and easier then going into specific. And are a hell of a lot less rude. This post, by it's very nature, is not intended to upset or insult, but to provoke thought and mature discussion. Current running bet on that happening is 34%, but like every other statistic on the internet, there's a 70% chance that number was pulled straight out of the author's hind quarters.)
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, it took some searching and compilation but I believe I've got Power's vision statement.
I think we should get more Prestige per kill, or make everything cost less. If you are alone it takes fore ever to get a lot. It is hard to get poeple that want to join your SG and have them keep super group mode on.
Ok.... I know you know what I am going to say so I guess I'll just slip it out and wait....
I think you should marry a citizen, and have a baby... Then when it older it can fight with you.
You could do a new mission save your kid. Also you could buy and house.
I guess you well need a new zone for the houses, or make it like a base. We have so much money lets spend it!
I know this is more silly then some of my other ideas, but it would be cool.
I just thought of a good tiltle~
I know this is a crazy idea but it would be funny : P Make it so you go into Champoins Online universe and same with DC . I know they can't do this yet since those two aren't out yet. They could make it so you can go in, unless you haven't pay for that game.
And the other two univers can come to CoH.
Superman girefriend went in to and univers where she was dead, and we already have portals. I don't know how to spell her name.
I think it would be cool to have one of your own guys with you. They could cut the xp so it will be slow. It you would still need to find poeple for the TF/SFs. I don't seen how this could go wrong!! It is the best one I ever thought of!!
Sorry, that's as far as I was able to get before my brain started bleeding.
This did get me thinking though. I don't believe Power has actually come up with an idea for super vision. Maybe I should send him a pm and see what he comes up with.
[/ QUOTE ]
We need to get back to discussing the original intent of the OP: Power's vision statement.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I really like to pretend Power doesn't exist, if it's all the same to you.
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lol I think
[/ QUOTE ]
Can I go nowhere without tripping over a PvP whine? I thought all the PvPers had left. How does that work, again?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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We/they did. I think there are like 6 left now. If that wasn't the goal then they couldn't have succeeded better had they tried. I came back due to MA and haven't touched pvp in some time.
MA drew me back, but is so far much less robust than I was hoping and had built it up to be in my mind due to the issue delay and devoting an entire issue to it.
Unfortunately the "everyone is the same" approach to design is now spilling out of the pvp testbed and into the pve game which is frustratingly unnecessary.
Anyway, that is neither here nor there. I apologize to the OP for steering the ship astray and I apologize to Arcana for speaking ill of her in front of her disciples. I knew what I brought up would be sensitive, but didn't realize it would be so touchy it would cause browbeating, bullying, and personal threats. Point taken.
gl everyone and now back to your regularly scheduled OP's topic "Powers Vision"
I'm honestly not interested in your vendetta. It's just growing old that every thread, no matter what it's about, has a 50/50 chance of getting SOMEONE complaining about PvP. It's the new ED, I guess, and no less annoying to listen about.
As for your passive-aggressive dance, I find myself unmoved. You're playing the victim card horribly poorly.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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[ QUOTE ]
gl everyone and now back to your regularly scheduled OP's topic "Powers Vision"
[/ QUOTE ]
this is the same topic.
You, and folks of the same mindset, including the OP, are making a big fuss about things you do not understand and then blaming the most convenient scapegoat for your lack of understanding.
What is it you're trying to do here? Y'all are like someone who's read the Divine Comedy in translation and now are getting mad when people discuss its poetic structure because you don't see any of that... and if you don't understand how something could be, clearly it's because there's some malevolent conspiracy among those 'in the know' to keep you out.
Arcanaville flatly did not do the things you're holding her responsible for. I mean, please. I've seen that woman blamed or argued with in the most ridiculous fashions, entirely because the people doing so have no understanding of mathematics or proper logic to speak of. It's not about whether I like or agree with her; you just don't walk up to Alan Greenspan and tell him he doesn't understand money. (Well, maybe now you could.)
Castle and Positron are not omniscient. I spend some time working on a 16+ year-old text game, and the lead developer there is still rooting out things from the earlier code that have unintended consequences -- and it's an exponentially smaller project that he has personally rewritten several times! That's just the way that things work.
Now, I'm a pragmatist, so I'm not going to give this as an imperative. Think of the following as a suggestion: Improve your comprehension or decrease your prolificity. This is the same suggestion I offered to the OP, and I think it applies equally as well.
Actually, I think the OP has a point.
I would love to see, not some kind of specific document that paralyzes all future development of the game by locking the devs into impossible and/or contradictory promises, but just a general idea of what the 'roles' of each power are intended to be.
What role does Temperature Protection play, for instance? I think it's primarily a 'flavor' power intended to give extra RP to an AT that doesn't really NEED it. Just an extra option, not a core power. Essentially it's there because the set would be just as good with an empty slot in that position.
But maybe that's not how the Devs see it at all.
I'd love to see periodical posts on how the Devs see a power and why it's where it is in the power tree, why they feel the cost is balanced, and what they'd like to do to it 'someday'.
It would be interesting, and a nice place for the Devs to say things like "here is the role Domination should play, how can we get there without breaking Doms?"
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Kitsune, I'm 100% with you. The kind of discussion you're talking about is exactly the sort of stuff that's been going on in "that other superhero MMO's" closed beta forums and it's working pretty well. They ask, we answer, they respond accordingly. I know a game in closed beta is a very different animal from a game that's 5 years old, but when it comes to improving it, this process is still a good one regardless of the game's age.
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I'm honestly not interested in your vendetta. It's just growing old that every thread, no matter what it's about, has a 50/50 chance of getting SOMEONE complaining about PvP. It's the new ED, I guess, and no less annoying to listen about.
As for your passive-aggressive dance, I find myself unmoved. You're playing the victim card horribly poorly.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are of course right. I'm just getting my disappointment at them ruining pvp out as I wasn't here at the time it went down.
I don't wish for them to kill any activity in the game that occupies 80%+ of your time and effort, but if it does eventually happen then PM me and we can share sob stories lol.
PvP and ED are actually two very different cases, though I can fully understand that the whining sounds the same even if it is coming from a different place. All whining sounds the same.
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gl everyone and now back to your regularly scheduled OP's topic "Powers Vision"
[/ QUOTE ]
this is the same topic.
You, and folks of the same mindset, including the OP, are making a big fuss about things you do not understand and then blaming the most convenient scapegoat for your lack of understanding.
What is it you're trying to do here? Y'all are like someone who's read the Divine Comedy in translation and now are getting mad when people discuss its poetic structure because you don't see any of that... and if you don't understand how something could be, clearly it's because there's some malevolent conspiracy among those 'in the know' to keep you out.
Arcanaville flatly did not do the things you're holding her responsible for. I mean, please. I've seen that woman blamed or argued with in the most ridiculous fashions, entirely because the people doing so have no understanding of mathematics or proper logic to speak of. It's not about whether I like or agree with her; you just don't walk up to Alan Greenspan and tell him he doesn't understand money. (Well, maybe now you could.)
Castle and Positron are not omniscient. I spend some time working on a 16+ year-old text game, and the lead developer there is still rooting out things from the earlier code that have unintended consequences -- and it's an exponentially smaller project that he has personally rewritten several times! That's just the way that things work.
Now, I'm a pragmatist, so I'm not going to give this as an imperative. Think of the following as a suggestion: Improve your comprehension or decrease your prolificity. This is the same suggestion I offered to the OP, and I think it applies equally as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was of course mistaken that when they pulled Arcana's idea and applied it I made the assumption that her close working relationship with the team would provide an environment for her to ensure it was implemented correctly. We all know what happens when we assume... and boy did it. Granted the numbers used for elusivity in i13 wouldn't have worked without DR either, so I guess I'm just curious where it all broke down and at what point they cut her out?
I wonder if she is upset that they took her idea and did a poor job of it, especially when she has them all on speed dial?
I'm guessing she is steaming about it as she is extremely detail oriented and that explains her disavowing any knowledge of DR and tossing Castle under the bus.
I'm am honestly sorry this time for tearing open an old wound, that wasn't very nice. Are you still working with Castle regarding elusivity, or have you walked away from that project? I'm curious because I do recall you mentioning you were writing a paper explaining why DR+elusivity isn't working properly (that hopefully would have some fixes) and because you seem like the type to see things through to completion. We are stuck with the mechanic now, so hopefully you, the devs, or someone else can get it working soon.
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I'm guessing she is steaming about it as she is extremely detail oriented and that explains her disavowing any knowledge of DR and tossing Castle under the bus.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't really see it as "throwing Castle under the bus"** so I'm not as upset as you assume I am. Actually, I tend to disagree with the devs more than I agree with them, and it doesn't hurt my ability to communicate with them. But the devs rarely simply do whatever I (or any other player) say, and Elusivity is no exception to that rule. The devs suggested that ED itself was "suggested by the players" but the most likely source of that suggestion was probably the post made by Pilcrow, who did not suggest the implementation that was actually put into the game, and from talking to him at the time I know it would not have been his first choice. He (and other players) only suggested *some* form of diminishing returns be placed on enhancement strength.
But I can't throw Castle under the bus by claiming it wasn't my decision, because nothing is ever my decision. The devs only do it if they themselves decide to do it. At best the most I or any other player can take credit for is suggesting an idea. The ultimate form that idea takes is always ultimately the devs' own final decision. And I have *never* gotten an unvetted idea past the devs. They pick them apart no differently than they would anyone elses idea.
** for one thing, Castle wasn't the sole architect of DR or Elusivity
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Quick reply:
Stop thinking of MMOs as some work of art game devs are continually trying to perfect and start thinking about it as a subscription-based product.
There are many ways to get people to continue to subscribe, not all of them are features or buffs or new shiny. Nerfs can be player manipulation. Don't believe me? The concept isn't far off from the phenomena of gamblers chasing losses.
To the OP: Good idea. I doubt that the suggestion will happen soon. There is no right or wrong about design. It would be great if interested players can look into the design notes such that we can understand what the dev think. On the other hand, the dev might not want us to know what they think sometimes. You know, there are always some nasty things behind. And design principles change with time as well. But I believe in the (far) future, the interaction between players and dev can be at a higher level, and things can be more transparent.
If nothing else the OPs idea has merit in the case of testing. When new powersets are released, if the Devs could put in the testing forums a list of the powers of the power sets, and their "vision" or "intended use" of the powers were, then the people testing would have something to go by.
A few times in open betas I have reported bugs that were things that were "working as intended" or didn't report bugs because I thought they were working as intended. If there had been some sort of list for the desired goal for these powers, I would have been a more effective tester.
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
Hi:
The reason for these so call adjustments, is mostly due to lack of planning, professional testing, and perhaps poor coding practices.
My husband who manages a software development team, tells me that many of the "old" code or poorly configuration managed software are usually regarded as "Spaguetti Code". When you have "spaguetti" Code" you are in a situation when you do a change in the code, it may have totally unexpected side effects. For example, look at the changes done in I13, how come the Blackwand got bugged? Look at the changes on I12, how come the chat color instructions got bugged? One would be lead to believe that historically CoX developers are not practicing professional software development practices, and over the time, their spaguetti code has gotten increasingly more tangled.
So how does this impact the vision of a power? It should be obvious, when the code is poorly managed and integrated, and changes yields many surprises, some good, some bad; then powers would suddenly work much better or worse than intended and as a result they will need to be retuned.
Frankly, if CoX has spaguetti code issues, its impossible for a developer to tell us in advance what his vision of what is going to happen to our powers or what not.
I would suggest, that CoX maybe stop after I14 making new upgrades, and simply look back at their code and clean their act. The reward of this will be a more stable game, better satified costumers (no more jerking around of power effects), and future upgrades can actually be developed faster and easier.
Hugs
Stormy
[ QUOTE ]
Hi:
The reason for these so call adjustments, is mostly due to lack of planning, professional testing, and perhaps poor coding practices.
My husband who manages a software development team, tells me that many of the "old" code or poorly configuration managed software are usually regarded as "Spaguetti Code". When you have "spaguetti" Code" you are in a situation when you do a change in the code, it may have totally unexpected side effects. For example, look at the changes done in I13, how come the Blackwand got bugged? Look at the changes on I12, how come the chat color instructions got bugged? One would be lead to believe that historically CoX developers are not practicing professional software development practices, and over the time, their spaguetti code has gotten increasingly more tangled.
So how does this impact the vision of a power? It should be obvious, when the code is poorly managed and integrated, and changes yields many surprises, some good, some bad; then powers would suddenly work much better or worse than intended and as a result they will need to be retuned.
Frankly, if CoX has spaguetti code issues, its impossible for a developer to tell us in advance what his vision of what is going to happen to our powers or what not.
I would suggest, that CoX maybe stop after I14 making new upgrades, and simply look back at their code and clean their act. The reward of this will be a more stable game, better satified costumers (no more jerking around of power effects), and future upgrades can actually be developed faster and easier.
Hugs
Stormy
[/ QUOTE ]
Just an FYI: powers definitions are not code: they are data. There is no "code" that tells the game how power burst works. The game code implements mechanics that the powers data obeys to generate powers effects.
Although sometimes the game code is very clearly borked, in the case of the pet recharge issues there was no sudden odd or unexpected change in behavior. Rather, there was undesirable behavior that reached a point where the devs decided to take action. No amount of "good coding practices" in that sense would have avoided this particular issue.
Also, the term "spaghetti code" is usually reserved for code that is bordering on the incomprehensible because its structure makes it almost impossible to trace its logical execution. The canonical example is code with large numbers of conditional branches ("GOTOs"). If I had to bet real money, I'd bet CoX is full of the stuff, just because I *always* win that bet on any software project, even ones supposedly run by "good coding practices." But in this case, that isn't a factor in these issues.
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi:
The reason for these so call adjustments, is mostly due to lack of planning, professional testing, and perhaps poor coding practices.
My husband who manages a software development team, tells me that many of the "old" code or poorly configuration managed software are usually regarded as "Spaguetti Code". When you have "spaguetti" Code" you are in a situation when you do a change in the code, it may have totally unexpected side effects. For example, look at the changes done in I13, how come the Blackwand got bugged? Look at the changes on I12, how come the chat color instructions got bugged? One would be lead to believe that historically CoX developers are not practicing professional software development practices, and over the time, their spaguetti code has gotten increasingly more tangled.
So how does this impact the vision of a power? It should be obvious, when the code is poorly managed and integrated, and changes yields many surprises, some good, some bad; then powers would suddenly work much better or worse than intended and as a result they will need to be retuned.
Frankly, if CoX has spaguetti code issues, its impossible for a developer to tell us in advance what his vision of what is going to happen to our powers or what not.
I would suggest, that CoX maybe stop after I14 making new upgrades, and simply look back at their code and clean their act. The reward of this will be a more stable game, better satified costumers (no more jerking around of power effects), and future upgrades can actually be developed faster and easier.
Hugs
Stormy
[/ QUOTE ]
Just an FYI: powers definitions are not code: they are data. There is no "code" that tells the game how power burst works. The game code implements mechanics that the powers data obeys to generate powers effects.
Although sometimes the game code is very clearly borked, in the case of the pet recharge issues there was no sudden odd or unexpected change in behavior. Rather, there was undesirable behavior that reached a point where the devs decided to take action. No amount of "good coding practices" in that sense would have avoided this particular issue.
Also, the term "spaghetti code" is usually reserved for code that is bordering on the incomprehensible because its structure makes it almost impossible to trace its logical execution. The canonical example is code with large numbers of conditional branches ("GOTOs"). If I had to bet real money, I'd bet CoX is full of the stuff, just because I *always* win that bet on any software project, even ones supposedly run by "good coding practices." But in this case, that isn't a factor in these issues.
[/ QUOTE ]
I beg to differ, using your sample. There is code, albeit generic, that reads the data from power blast; this code could be tangled with other code.
I also would point out, that evidence tends to speak out for itelf. Look at the bizarre malfunctions when the game gets an upgrade. For instance, remember the trade function was borked when I13 was introduced? If you think about it, what did the tray window functionality had to directly do with crafting, once more using your example of power blast; should it not be some standard code that provides the trade functionality and then look up tables for the items traded? So while I could see errors in the database due to inception of more things that can be traded, I can not really see why the main trade functionality code would be impacted. The chat issue where colored chat went away during I12, what did that had to do with what was done with I12? Once you look at the body of observables, its hard to not believe CoX is suffering from spaguetti code at some level of borkness. Considering that the errors are not by the droves but in limited quantities, the code can not be too borked and a couple of months of clean-up should remedy this situation.
In general if we were to compare CoX with other games, its performance with regards to game quality is at par with other game companies. Would be great, if we could get coX to be a leader in this area.
Hugs
Stormy
[ QUOTE ]
I beg to differ, using your sample. There is code, albeit generic, that reads the data from power blast; this code could be tangled with other code.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen that woman blamed or argued with in the most ridiculous fashions, entirely because the people doing so have no understanding of mathematics or proper logic to speak of.
[/ QUOTE ]
Adding "computer programming" to the list. And -- great. Now I'm imagining the original CoX development process as a metaphor involving very young children tying their shoes.
It is pretty much spaghetti code and the devs have admitted that. None of the original development team is left and absolutely nobody left notes on the early game coding. Obviously some sections of code were made to be alterable in order to be able to more easily add costumes, powers, archetypes, etc... But some of the very foundation of the game engine is just a block of code with no reference notes.
Don't count your weasels before they pop dink!
[ QUOTE ]
So defence being a joke in PVP is OK, but being slightly Over adjusted (and tweakable) is ruining PvP ?
[/ QUOTE ]
Defense being a (tweakable) joke in pvp was NOT ok and neither was making it grossly OP'd (and still tweakable) and now in i14 back to being a joke (and still tweakable).
lol slightly overadjusted. Anyway, I apologize this was the wrong time to bring this up. I just thought it appropriate to hang everyone's dirty laundry out in light of her feeling that was ok to do to me.
I'll shamble back to the pvp forums and wallow in the sludge they left us to play with there. Maybe in pvp 3.0 they'll bring in someone from hello kitty island adventure to add ideas, proly work out about as well.
take care.