Which suggests... *grindteeth* that the identity of /Energy is probably supposed to be the Control-Heavy assault set. Which is why I'd like more reliable stuff in it.
Using something from an earlier discussion as the other premiss, the conclusion is "The identity of /Energy is to be the set to use if you're bad at playing Dominators".
Hmm, I could get behind that. 100% chance for kb in all blasts, and 100% chance for stun in melee attacks, with Power Push having both. Makes it the go to set for the "I keep dying at villainous" crew.
Yeah, I haven't taken Energy to 50 yet though. Only 47.8.
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My observation has been that by staying within the rules, Energy can't surpass /Fiery for single target damage because of Blaze and Fiery Embrace, and can't surpass /Electricity because of Havoc Punch and Build Up. Fiddling with recharge and damage on all the powers is just a dead-end.
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Yes, but why would it have to surpass Electricity? /Ele deals damage in melee... the changes would help Energy deal more damage at range. Then, Ene is a little behind Ele overall, but a little ahead in ranged, and that seems reasonably balanced to me.
I mean, heck, let's try to get the set SOLID first, before we get it to be a top performer at something. Right now it's bad at ranged ST, has no ranged AoE, it's bad at melee ST and AoE. The changes would at least push it to decent in some of the categories, and we're more likely to get than than ones that push Ene to "best at something".
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Just give the set some more damage, that's all it needs IMO.
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But how? The thing about changing powers to have greater recharge and greater damage is that it doesn't increase their DPS. That's how the whole thing is balanced. The Dominator attack chains aren't quite full enough to really take advantage of such a change. It does help in the case of large amounts of global recharge, but not by a truly significant factor. If you're curious try out the Attack Chain Generator linked in my sig, it can help shed light on the situation.
My observation has been that by staying within the rules, Energy can't surpass /Fiery for single target damage because of Blaze and Fiery Embrace, and can't surpass /Electricity because of Havoc Punch and Build Up. Fiddling with recharge and damage on all the powers is just a dead-end.
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Yeah, but they're your rules. You said we couldn't break the rules and we couldn't replace powers. With those two limitations, */Energy can really only be given some better burst via increased DPA.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Yeah, but they're your rules. You said we couldn't break the rules and we couldn't replace powers. With those two limitations, */Energy can really only be given some better burst via increased DPA.
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From what I understand, those are Castle's rules, correct me if I"m wrong.
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Fiddling with recharge and damage on all the powers is just a dead-end.
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I don't agree, it seems to me that it would help.
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The Dominator attack chains aren't quite full enough to really take advantage of such a change...<snip>..If you're curious try out the Attack Chain Generator linked in my sig, it can help shed light on the situation.
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If you look at the secondary in isolation that may be true. I spent a little time with your attack chain generator, and adding in a few primary powers I didn't get many gaps, even with the higher recharges for /Energy powers that have been suggested in this thread.
For some builds, and some play styles, it may be true that it wouldn't amount to much of an increase in DPS, but what about paired with a primary with some decent attacks? What about those who play more like a Controller, mostly focusing on locking things down, and throwing attacks when it's convenient? You can't look at the secondary in isolation and say the changes wouldn't be an improvement.
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If you look at the secondary in isolation that may be true. I spent a little time with your attack chain generator, and adding in a few primary powers I didn't get many gaps, even with the higher recharges for /Energy powers that have been suggested in this thread.
For some builds, and some play styles, it may be true that it wouldn't amount to much of an increase in DPS, but what about paired with a primary with some decent attacks? What about those who play more like a Controller, mostly focusing on locking things down, and throwing attacks when it's convenient? You can't look at the secondary in isolation and say the changes wouldn't be an improvement.
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Exactly. The reason Dom assault sets in general would all benefit from longer recharges and harder-hitting attacks cannot be seen when you look only at the assault sets themselves. The reason is created by having a primary that is also click-intensive. Soon as you add in a ST Hold, plus the option of a ST Immob in the primary, not to mention Levitate/Lift/Propel, even single-target, the Dom's attack chain gets overloaded. Then you consider the use of AoE controls and debuffs, and you really will have a lot of assault powers recharged and unusable because you're too busy doing other stuff.
Too many click powers means that we'd be better off with either shorter animations (not going to happen), or longer recharges/effects. Frankly, I'd love if they also pushed the Hold back 1-2 seconds, and increased the duration of the Hold appropriately. This way we could make full use of our primary and secondary, not to mention squeezing in PPP blasts and such.
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For some builds, and some play styles, it may be true that it wouldn't amount to much of an increase in DPS, but what about paired with a primary with some decent attacks? What about those who play more like a Controller, mostly focusing on locking things down, and throwing attacks when it's convenient?
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Yes, that's a good point, my focus has been on secondary as pure damage. So, the case where the Dominator is busy using their primary and pool powers a lot, heavier hitting slower recharging attacks are good. What would it take to get the DPA of Power Burst to match Blaze? And Bonesmasher to match Havoc Punch or Charged Brawl? I don't know the Damage/Recharge/Endurance ratios off-hand.
Well, blaze has 109 DPA, but blaze is rather an outlier. Bitter ice blast has 77 DPA, which might be more reasonable. Charged brawl has 98 DPA, havok punch has 72. The current DPA of bone smasher 46, and Power burst's is 38.
To get bonesmasher's DPA on par with havok punch's, it'd have to have its damage bumped from 1.64 to 2.6 - turned into a clone of havok punch, in other words. That would bump the recharge from 8 to 14 seconds. To get power burst equal to bitter ice blast, it'd have to be nearly doubled in damage, which seems a bit unreasonable - it would then do 50% more damage than blaze. I'd rather lower the animation time somewhat on this power, although bumping it up to also have damage scale 2.6 and 14 second recharge would leave it at 46 and might be an acceptable start.
I'd also swap power blast with the 8s recharge blaster version, and give power push scale 1.32 damage (the damage appropriate for a 6s recharge blast). That would raise the DPA of power blast from 29 to 35, and make power push a credible damage power with a DPA of 43. I know I'd abuse the heck out of power push at that point, it'd be fun as heck. It would also be pretty unique among dominator secondaries as a control-esque power that is also a decent damage power. Whether we like it or not, that does seem to be energy's niche.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
I don't think it's necessary for Energy to match Fire for DPA, but it can definitely be brought closer to parity than it is now without any kind of balance concerns.
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my current favourite suggestion, replacing the %knockback in the blasts with a -Res debuff.
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Except that it would walk on the toes of a potential future sonic assault.
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I'm surprised more people didn't respond to this suggestion of -Res.
It's definitely not part of the Energy secondary effect themes. But it seems we all agree that %kb and %stun aren't very useful for Dominators.
I did consider the impact on a future Sonic Assault, but concluded that it would be ok to share, much like -Def is shared by so many sets. A Sonic Assault set is certain to have more AoEs.
The issue in my mind is that if %kb and %stun aren't useful, then they're not valuable, which means the set can 'afford' something either extra (and I am very much against the idea of it getting -res), or can be discounted in other areas.
So, why are you opposed to -Res? What extras or discounts could you give it?
And another idea comes to me:
100% low-mag stun on every attack. Interesting stun stacking possibilities.
-Res isn't very thematic...
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my current favourite suggestion, replacing the %knockback in the blasts with a -Res debuff.
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Except that it would walk on the toes of a potential future sonic assault.
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I'm surprised more people didn't respond to this suggestion of -Res.
It's definitely not part of the Energy secondary effect themes. But it seems we all agree that %kb and %stun aren't very useful for Dominators.
I did consider the impact on a future Sonic Assault, but concluded that it would be ok to share, much like -Def is shared by so many sets. A Sonic Assault set is certain to have more AoEs.
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Can't wait for it to come. Might even make, GAH!, a fire/sonic controller to get fix on.
Dark Bard, Zoobait, Debacle
jmsb
Por vezes d� vontade...
chucknorriss
speak american godamnit
I don't see a sonic assault ever happening.
Sonic melee attacks don't really make sense...
And there's so many better assault options that would happen first.
/Energy would be great to take on the mantle of -res for doms.
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So, why are you opposed to -Res?
[/ QUOTE ]A couple of reasons, and I'm not certain I'll be able to convey them all well. Feeling very down right now. <ul type="square">[*]Total Focus as an attack is already long-animating and delivers its punch at the end of the animation. Saying that the 'extra damage' of the set then comes after you do this kind of extraordinary attack sounds like it wouldn't make me happy - I'd much rather a king hit feel like a king hit.[*]-Res doesn't just up your damage, it ups everyone's damage. This is why the attacks tend to be made (a bit) weaker to compensate.[*]Accumulating debuffs is only viable on single hard targets; single targets that are already either trivialised (bosses) or are very much not trivialised (ptods). For the other 99% of the game, the -res would be most likely negligible.[*]It further niches Doms up - if this -res is good enough to be valuable to the dom, it's good enough to be valuable to a team and suddenly, doms offer something to a team provided they are this specific powerset.[*]It doesn't have any thematic connection. Energy is about raw force thumping into things; Surely it's better to stick to the thematic that is very, very well established rather than trying to shoehorn in something extra from another set.[*]The 'me too' effect; if Dom energy bolt and dom bone smasher do -res, without any thematic justification, what's to stop blasters, corruptors, brutes and stalkers asking for same? Even if it's unjustified (which it is) it still generates a dissonant feeling.[*]Energy doesn't have good coverage. It has slow-animating single-target - which means you'll never be able to spread this -res out, and you'll be dispensing it very slowly.[/list]
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What extras or discounts could you give it?
[/ QUOTE ]Additive changes to the snipes might help (might might might might might, I must reinforce) as I stated a beelyun years ago. Also, Claws gets a discount on its recharge/end/damage formula - allowing it lower costs and lower recharge for its damage. The same might not be an unreasonable addition to energy - a change that's still halted by DPA.
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And another idea comes to me:
100% low-mag stun on every attack. Interesting stun stacking possibilities.
[/ QUOTE ]Similar to the -res, this is stuff that only works when you're getting sequential attacks against things. Not generally as useful as it sounds. But don't get me wrong, it's not a bad idea at all, though perhaps better on a fast-attacker than an Energy Assault dom.
I do think the identity of /EA is 'the single target control guy,' so we should probably expect changes to adjust that.
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I don't see a sonic assault ever happening.
Sonic melee attacks don't really make sense...
And there's so many better assault options that would happen first.
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That being said, you could go for a more ranged Primary in the vein of Fiery Assault. For melee purposes, Hand Clap would be thematic and one melee attack would be all you'd really need.
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So, why are you opposed to -Res?
[/ QUOTE ]A couple of reasons:[*]Total Focus as an attack is already long-animating and delivers its punch at the end of the animation. Saying that the 'extra damage' of the set then comes after you do this kind of extraordinary attack sounds like it wouldn't make me happy - I'd much rather a king hit feel like a king hit.
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Sure, I didn't even suggest that -Res be given to Total Focus of course. Wouldn't it be nice to apply a bit of -Res before the TF?
[ QUOTE ][*]-Res doesn't just up your damage, it ups everyone's damage. This is why the attacks tend to be made (a bit) weaker to compensate.
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Yes, and they already are weaker, that's why we're talking about it.
[ QUOTE ][*]Accumulating debuffs is only viable on single hard targets; single targets that are already either trivialised (bosses) or are very much not trivialised (ptods). For the other 99% of the game, the -res would be most likely negligible.
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Which is part of the point. Energy Assault becomes the set for dealing with single hard targets, which is what people expect of it anyway.
[ QUOTE ][*]It further niches Doms up - if this -res is good enough to be valuable to the dom, it's good enough to be valuable to a team and suddenly, doms offer something to a team provided they are this specific powerset.
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Argh. Currently Energy Assault is the worst secondary in all categories. -Res would make it possibly the best in the specific scenario of a single hard target, but leave it pretty poor in the others. Don't you think each secondary should have its place where it shines?
[ QUOTE ][*]It doesn't have any thematic connection. Energy is about raw force thumping into things; Surely it's better to stick to the thematic that is very, very well established rather than trying to shoehorn in something extra from another set.
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Yes, this is probably the strongest point against it. I wouldn't suggest breaking theme like this if it the available themes weren't so absolutely dreadful.
[ QUOTE ][*]The 'me too' effect; if Dom energy bolt and dom bone smasher do -res, without any thematic justification, what's to stop blasters, corruptors, brutes and stalkers asking for same? Even if it's unjustified (which it is) it still generates a dissonant feeling.
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Just to reiterate, i was suggesting for ranged attacks only. Yes, that could be an unfortunate consequence, and another strong point in favour of the status sucking quo.
[ QUOTE ][*]Energy doesn't have good coverage. It has slow-animating single-target - which means you'll never be able to spread this -res out, and you'll be dispensing it very slowly.
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Yes, agreed, which greatly reduces the risk of making it overpowered.
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What extras or discounts could you give it?
[/ QUOTE ]Additive changes to the snipes might help (might might might might might, I must reinforce) as I stated a beelyun years ago. Also, Claws gets a discount on its recharge/end/damage formula - allowing it lower costs and lower recharge for its damage. The same might not be an unreasonable addition to energy - a change that's still halted by DPA.
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Do you remember what you came up with for Sniper Blast? A phase effect. That's not going to do much for Energy Assault. Even if you gave /Energy a discount for rech/end/dam somewhere, what would be the result? I'd expect to still have slightly above average single target damage with mostly useless secondary effects.
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And another idea comes to me:
100% low-mag stun on every attack. Interesting stun stacking possibilities.
[/ QUOTE ]Similar to the -res, this is stuff that only works when you're getting sequential attacks against things. Not generally as useful as it sounds. But don't get me wrong, it's not a bad idea at all, though perhaps better on a fast-attacker than an Energy Assault dom.
I do think the identity of /EA is 'the single target control guy,' so we should probably expect changes to adjust that.
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Ok, so working with "/Energy's strength is single target control", and what we've learned that "chance of is pretty worthless, when you've got 100% controls in your primary". How can we arrange 100% effects in the controls to not be overpowered, but to still be useful.
<ul type="square">[*]Power Bolt - 50% knockback, 50% mag 1 stun for 4 seconds. The one exception because it's the weakest.[*]Bonesmasher - 100% mag 2 stun for 12 seconds.[*]Power Push - 100% knockback, unchanged[*]Power Blast - 100% mag 1 stun for 8 seconds, 100% knockdown.[*]Whirling Hands - 100% mag 2 stun for 4 seconds.[*]Total Focus - 100% mag 3 stun for 15 seconds. 100% knockdown.[*]Sniper Blast - 100% knockback, 100% mag3 stun for 15 seconds.[*]Power Burst - 100% mag 2 stun for 12 seconds, 100% knockdown.[/list]
Domination would probably add mag 1 to everything instead of doubling it.
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Sonic melee attacks don't really make sense...
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You've clearly never had a 3 year-old screech in your ear.
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Just give the set some more damage, that's all it needs IMO.
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But how? The thing about changing powers to have greater recharge and greater damage is that it doesn't increase their DPS. That's how the whole thing is balanced. The Dominator attack chains aren't quite full enough to really take advantage of such a change. It does help in the case of large amounts of global recharge, but not by a truly significant factor. If you're curious try out the Attack Chain Generator linked in my sig, it can help shed light on the situation.
My observation has been that by staying within the rules, Energy can't surpass /Fiery for single target damage because of Blaze and Fiery Embrace, and can't surpass /Electricity because of Havoc Punch and Build Up. Fiddling with recharge and damage on all the powers is just a dead-end.