Live Patch -- 2.10.09: Discussion!
By
Agent_Kendt,
Posted on: 2009-02-10 24:12 in Developers' Corner
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There was a global increase because... well... there was a global increase. This doesn't change the overall philosophy of punishing the community if the community gets better at doing certain things.
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Wha?...
They increased merits on way more things than they decreased, but at the same time they're still punishing the community? I'd like to see what kind of dictionary you're using. Your definition of "punishing" seems to be off.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
The system isn't punitive because of any arbitrary global change that they might make at any given time. They could change the reward to 1 merit every minute. They could change it to 1 merit every 30 seconds. Those are arbitrary benchmarks that they assign. They are baseline numbers.
The system is punitive because the better that you play and, more to the point, the better that we all collectively play, the worse off you will be in terms of the rewards that you reap for the completion of set tasks.
Let's say you and your group start out and play together for the first time and do, say, an ITF. You aren't familiar with each other and you aren't geared very well, so it takes you 2 1/2 hours to do. Now extrapolate that to everyone who plays. The ITF is new, so it takes an average time of 150 minutes to complete. Well, that's worth 50 merits under this system. If they arbitrarily set the benchmark at 1 per 2 minutes, it would be worth 75, but that's irrelevant to why this system is punitive.
This is why it's punitive:
You and your group get better. You get more familiar with the maps. You improve your enhancements. You improve your tactics. Within a month, you can now run the ITF in 100 minutes. Your increase in skill and ability has improved your completion time by 33%. Extrapolate that to everyone else in the game. So now the average time is now 100 minutes.
Basically, the population of the game as a whole has gotten about 33% better at this one specific task. The ITF.
Now, any sane system would say, 'Okay, they are better, so they deserve the rewards of getting better.'
But this system is punitive, so it does not. It says instead, "Oh, since they can do the task in less time now, the task must be worth less."
So instead of getting rewarded for your increase in skill. Or even remaining on par with where you were for completing the same task you used to get 50 merits for, suddenly your reward for completing the same task is only worth 33 merit, because the only calculation used to determine the reward is how long the TF takes.
That's why the system's philosophy is punitive and rewards mediocrity. The longer we stay mediocre at tasks and take inordinantly long periods of time to complete them, the more rewarded we will be.
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I am looking at what happened too. They increased the merit reward for task forces from 1 per 5 minutes to 1 per 3 minutes, right? Overall, that basically means going from 12/hour to 20/hour. Or roughly a 40% global increase.
But the increase wasn't 40%. It was 26%. Why? Because of the punitive nature of the system and the fact that the better we get, the worse off we'll be. We are already seeing that by virtue of the fact that the 40% global bonus lost about 40% of itself before it could even come into play.
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No, you're focusing on the explanation, which is really just noise. They saw an increase was necessary, came up with a good story, and implemented it.
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So tell me what logically happens if there is an 0% global increase to go along with times getting cut.
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What happens if another global increase gets implemented?
What happens if rewards are increased on a case by case basis?
What if?
What if?
You're predicting a future event and complaining about it in advance. This thread isn't to discuss the patch of May 14, 2009.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
His post specifically says that they went from a baseline of 1 merit per 5 minutes of TF time to 1 minute per 3 minutes of TF time. That means they intended a global increase in merits earned of about 40%. But they only got 26%. That isn't me focusing on the explanation. That is me analyzing exactly what happened.
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His post specifically says that they went from a baseline of 1 merit per 5 minutes of TF time to 1 minute per 3 minutes of TF time. That means they intended a global increase in merits earned of about 40%. But they only got 26%. That isn't me focusing on the explanation. That is me analyzing exactly what happened.
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Except that it was also coupled with a re-evaluation of how long certain tasks actually take. You're using one guideline to evaluate a change that uses two. The methodology of your argument is flawed at the base.
Look at the posted data. The significant majority of the merit loss is concentrated in two or three story arcs that the player base has KNOWN had inflated values. We have an overall increase - the decreases only came into play with a few specific situations which anybody who was watching merit rates knew was skewed in the first place.
Well, that might hold water if there were many arcs or tfs or trials that actually received a bonus of 40%. If you look down through the list, there aren't many. Even the ones that got the biggest gains in raw numbers of merits earned didn't gain 40% even though baseline was increased by 40%.
What that means essentially is that more people are probably doing arcs than before and that the times for the vast majority of them did not go up. They went down and received an illusionary boost in merits earned based solely on a large one time bonus similar to the enormous gift in prestige to supergroups last year. It was nice and shiny and covered up a fundamental flaw temporarily, but did nothing to address that flaw.
I believe Sister_Twelve's point was that this time, what actually happened was a combination of a global merit reward buff *and* an adjustment for median completion times.
An adjustment for median completion times, if performed alone, would (as she described) decrease the reward for a task as the playerbase gains experience in the efficient ways to do the task. I'm not going to enter a debate of whether that's a desirable gameplay/reward mechanic...but it is accurate from a mathematic and behavioral standpoint.
I am moderately hopeful that future downward adjustments will be small for several reasons:
1) biggest outliers have been dealt with
2) playerbase has had time to test the various arcs for speed and remaining outliers are more modest
3) larger dataset fueled this round of adjustments, making it more accurate
4) markets are not in good condition - the player and developer discussion is focused on increasing merit rewards or decreasing costs and on CoH/CoV balance
I got her point, I just disagree with it. She said: "That is me analyzing exactly what happened." Okay, exactly what happened? A buff. A 26% increase. All the narrative text in the world doesn't change that. She's predicting a future nerf and complaining about it now.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Well, you are incorrect. I am not predicting a future nerf. I am analyzing the situation based on the mathematics of the situation. It is virtually impossible for a community of people to focus on a set of tasks and for the amount of time it takes to complete those tasks to increase.
Predicting a nerf would be me saying, "I think that regeneration will lose some of its utility in the next patch."
When Synapse has flatly stated that his reward system is based solely on one number and that number can only move in one direction, I am not pulling out a crystal ball when I say that it is inevitable that reward merits will move in a parallel direction without some artificial, external modifications to the systems like the one implemented in this patch.
And if they are constantly going to have to artificially boost the baseline in order to keep the illusion that the system works, then why not just fix the system and be done with it?
I am not complaining about a future nerf. I am complaining about the nature of the system and the difference is huge even if you choose to categorize my complaints as something they are not.
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Ummmm who are you to say what type of playing is INTENDED
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No, I am not deciding which things are not as intended.
I was only commenting on something that very apparently HAS been judged to be that way.
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OO wait your prolly one of those guys that gets pissed when people speed stuff, huh?
YOU play your way. I will play mine. Using the word "exploit" tends to put a bee in peoples bonnets round these parts. Maybe next time pick a different word to illustrate your opinion. 
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Nope, I always LOVED fast KHs.
I do miss them. Harder to get a team up now.
Never was surprised with any of the nerfs, tho.
I never pretended that I didn't know I was getting a big return, for little effort.
And I understand why the devs don't want to announce things that will cause a flurry of 'Get-Lotsa-Farm-Runs-in-Before-the-Change' activity.
Play however you like. I have no problem with that.
My only point was not to feel you are owed a big warning way ahead of time, with all the numbers, before they nerf something, and one of the reasons why.
A good friend of mine had the motto, "People who get offended, ... deserve to be."
Sorry, but I will not nerf the accuracy of the terms I use, just because some people have hot-buttons. I will though, apologize afterwards for using a term that you don't like... sorry.
.
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There was a global increase because... well... there was a global increase. This doesn't change the overall philosophy of punishing the community if the community gets better at doing certain things.
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Wha?...
They increased merits on way more things than they decreased, but at the same time they're still punishing the community? I'd like to see what kind of dictionary you're using. Your definition of "punishing" seems to be off.
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They didnt increase jack bull **** on Redside..
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There was a global increase because... well... there was a global increase. This doesn't change the overall philosophy of punishing the community if the community gets better at doing certain things.
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Wha?...
They increased merits on way more things than they decreased, but at the same time they're still punishing the community? I'd like to see what kind of dictionary you're using. Your definition of "punishing" seems to be off.
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They didnt increase jack bull **** on Redside..
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You might actually want to read the list before making such an erroneous statement.
"When Chuck Norris can't go on, Petra Majdič perseveres!"
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There was a global increase because... well... there was a global increase. This doesn't change the overall philosophy of punishing the community if the community gets better at doing certain things.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wha?...
They increased merits on way more things than they decreased, but at the same time they're still punishing the community? I'd like to see what kind of dictionary you're using. Your definition of "punishing" seems to be off.
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They didnt increase jack bull **** on Redside..
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You might actually want to read the list before making such an erroneous statement.
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A merit here, a merit there... so what? So the team leader can get an extra merit or two? And leave the rest of the team with nothing? Why would I run those arcs as flashbacks when they give such a piss-poor reward compared to a strike force?
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
STF go increased by 13 but LRSF stayed the same.
WOW, gg
Some of us have a way with numbers - we can look at a spreadsheet or whatever and almost instantly see the effects.
Unfortunately, we're not controlling the merit rewards or pricing.
My solution to the CoV market and recipes has become "very low expectations". A sad outcome to an otherwise fun side of the game. 
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There was a global increase because... well... there was a global increase. This doesn't change the overall philosophy of punishing the community if the community gets better at doing certain things.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wha?...
They increased merits on way more things than they decreased, but at the same time they're still punishing the community? I'd like to see what kind of dictionary you're using. Your definition of "punishing" seems to be off.
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They didnt increase jack bull **** on Redside..
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You might actually want to read the list before making such an erroneous statement.
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A merit here, a merit there... so what? So the team leader can get an extra merit or two? And leave the rest of the team with nothing? Why would I run those arcs as flashbacks when they give such a piss-poor reward compared to a strike force?
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You want to insert foot in mouth right now? Redside got cow patties compaired to heros. YOU go read the list cause you apparantly need bifocals or something...
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STF go increased by 13 but LRSF stayed the same.
WOW, gg
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fixed that for ya
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STF go increased by 13 but LRSF stayed the same.
WOW, gg
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fixed that for ya
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Yeah thanks. Well anyways, I think Villains got the shaft on this one.
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A merit here, a merit there... so what? So the team leader can get an extra merit or two? And leave the rest of the team with nothing? Why would I run those arcs as flashbacks when they give such a piss-poor reward compared to a strike force?
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I am able to run flashbacks and approach the new stated goal for merits/minute for TFs. I can do it solo, and I can double-box easily to double my rewards. I don't need any help starting them. This is redside.
Sure it's possible to do even better if you can beat the average completion time on a TF/SF, but being able to start them myself and run them myself means I can do a little here and there, whenever it's convenient for me. No worries about people quitting, failing at the end, or any of that.
The changes have made it easier for me. There's not just one arc available to one or two ATs that's got outsized rewards. There are a number that are decent. Not obviously overvalued like before, but decent.
personally I think they are stringing us along with the merit system and the changes they make , they are in no hurry and can keep stringing us along, each month we keep waiting is another month for the game subscriptions,personnaly they can take the merits away and i would not miss them a bit,
Fluffy Bunny 1 Person SG
Rabid Bunny 1 Person VG
Both on Pinnacle
Hobbit's Hole 1 Person SG
Spider's Web 1 Person VG
Both on Freedom
i was just on a katie holmes task force which got to the tenth part of the mission and was wiped out 15 times or so , so could not complete. so we failed, happens almost everytime i go on a tf so nothing new there.got 0 merits was that right?
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so could not complete. so we failed, happens almost everytime i go on a tf so nothing new there.
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I don't see how that is even remotely possible.
However, to answer your question, if you quit a TF during the first mission that would result in 0 merits awarded. There is a sliding scale where you can get partial merits for partial completion (I don't recall the details), but quitting the first mission = zero completed.
P.S. The TF contact is Katie Hannon. Katie Holmes is married to Tom Cruise. 
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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so could not complete. so we failed, happens almost everytime i go on a tf so nothing new there.
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I don't see how that is even remotely possible.
However, to answer your question, if you quit a TF during the first mission that would result in 0 merits awarded. There is a sliding scale where you can get partial merits for partial completion (I don't recall the details), but quitting the first mission = zero completed.
P.S. The TF contact is Katie Hannon. Katie Holmes is married to Tom Cruise.
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which part couldn't you believe? the one about not being able to complete it on an 8 man team or getting 0 merits for getting 9/10ths of the way thru it?
The part where you said you fail almost every TF you do.
And you didn't get 9/10ths of the way through the TASK FORCE. You got 0/4ths of the way through it.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
I am looking at what happened too. They increased the merit reward for task forces from 1 per 5 minutes to 1 per 3 minutes, right? Overall, that basically means going from 12/hour to 20/hour. Or roughly a 40% global increase.
But the increase wasn't 40%. It was 26%. Why? Because of the punitive nature of the system and the fact that the better we get, the worse off we'll be. We are already seeing that by virtue of the fact that the 40% global bonus lost about 40% of itself before it could even come into play.
So tell me what logically happens if there is an 0% global increase to go along with times getting cut.