Live Feedback: Issue 13: New Sets: Pain Domination
By
calligo,
Posted on: 2008-12-11 19:15 in Developers' Corner
Got a Ninja/Pain mastermind right now, really enjoying the set so far. Im pretty familiar with Ninjas and I knew that they would do really well with having a pocket healer following them around. I have never quite understood why the masterminds end use has to be so freaking high though for most of the powers. I know I know balance but I cycle through my heals twice in the early levels and im completely tapped out, not to mention if I have to train my ninjas or recast them.
I suspect that once I get to a higher level I will be able to cut that end use down quite a bit, but in the 1-15 so far its been pretty brutal and has come down to picking healing teammates or recasting my minions, most of the time my teammates win but then when the battle is over all I am is "Healer" with half strength or less heals and no endurance rather then a mastermind with some freakin bad [censored] ninjas doing my bidding.
I would imagine that for Corrupters that take this set they are often looked on like empath hero side, in that they "have" to take every pain power to be a good Heelxor and they should as little blasting as possible. I know that is often the role the healer has to take on but I dont think that has to be the case many times.
Well the biggest problem I see is that, as is, this isn't the antithesis of Empathy, it's pretty much just empathy renamed so you could stick in on the villains without being laughed at. It talks a lot about suppressing or removing pain, and that's fine but . . .
Where is the villainous side? When do I get to cause the enemies to fall over and writh on the ground in agony? When do I get to slow them down with arthritis-like pains in their joints?
It's great to be able to heal my pets as a mastermind, but all the heroic acts of taking on or removing anothers pain just don't seem villainous . . . I mean why is my mastermind suffering pain (taking damage) to heal his worthless underlings? He can always summon another expendable chump later.
So . . . sure leave in some of the heals, especially early on, but could we get some attack powers to balance things out and make the set seem like something new, rather than just a variation on empathy?
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So . . . sure leave in some of the heals, especially early on, but could we get some attack powers to balance things out and make the set seem like something new, rather than just a variation on empathy?
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The point of Pain Domination is that it is a variation on pain empath. It brings similar buffs and heals to the villain side that heroes have had since day one.
Sure, it might not fight the role-play of your specific mastermind, but that's your specific master-mind. There are other powersets you can take that would better fit the role of a healer and buffer for what it sounds like you want to play, such as the thermal radiation set.
The big problem with your suggestion though is that what you describe is better suited in-game playwise for Dominators. What it sounds like you want is a Pain based set for dominators with holds, immobilizes, and status effects based on inflicting mental pain, with one or two low level heals.
That actually sounds like a really good idea.
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Okay. the original bit of feedback I originally had. One of the biggest in-game complaints I see is people fussing that Pain-Dom isn't as strong as empathy... but they compare an empathy defender to a pain-dom corrupter.
Well, when comparing all of the other power sets in use, the Corrupter secondary is just about equal to a controller secondary, while masterminds are a bit weaker than corrupter secondary. Compared to empathy on a controller, Pain-dom stacks up well for the buff numbers.
My biggest problem is also the one Mr_Book mentions. Endurance consumption is a little outrageous. Then again, I'm of the opinion that Endurance as a whole needs to be reworked in the game since it's almost a requirement for all archtypes to needs stamina... and even the willpower sets that include a recovery component, and the regen power set, greatly benefit from taking stamina. From what I've experienced since I5, it really seems like the game is balanced against taking all primary and secondary powers, 2 travel powers, swift or hurdle, health, then stamina, then a single epic / patron power.
Really, endurance as a whole needs to be reworked with percentages and amounts cut across all archtypes to remove Stamina as a requirement.
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Further edit. The more I thought about it after making this post... the more I like the idea of changing the name of pain domination.
One of the little items that has always bugged me about the corrupter power set, and then a defender power set has been the naming of Cold Domination. It sounds like a control power set, something a DOMINATOR would use.
So here's my suggestion.
Rename the Cold Domination and Pain Domination sets to be Cold Corruption and Pain Corruption
This opens up the cold domination and pain domination names to actually be used for Dominator archtypes.
Now, I know the immediate response... there already is an ice control power set for Dominators. Well, ice and cold can be different things... but suggestions for a real cold domination set really belong in a different thread.
While I realize that the naming of Cold Corruption doesn't exactly make a good naming for Defenders (or Controllers when they get the buff set), it's no worse or better than cold domination
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further edit : I threshed out the idea for real Pain and Cold domination sets in this thread : http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post12799425
but a quick check on the replies later seemed to support the one off comment I made while reposting it here : http://zerias.blogspot.com/2008/12/c...omination.html
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Further edit. The more I thought about it after making this post... the more I like the idea of changing the name of pain domination.
One of the little items that has always bugged me about the corrupter power set, and then a defender power set has been the naming of Cold Domination. It sounds like a control power set, something a DOMINATOR would use.
So here's my suggestion.
Rename the Cold Domination and Pain Domination sets to be Cold Corruption and Pain Corruption
This opens up the cold domination and pain domination names to actually be used for Dominator archtypes.
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/signed
This really bugs me because it makes absolutely no sense because these domination sets aren't for dominators. I just don't get it. I really hope to see this changed.
As for actual feedback i'm really liking my Pain Corr (currently 22). End has gotten so much better since Stamina and SO's.
My only complaint is that Soothing Aura won't heal me when i use Share Pain on a teammate but Suppress Pain will still work on Masterminds when they use Share Pain. Just seems a little unfair since they are already more survivable due to bodyguard and my little Corruptor has to go hide in a corner and wait for it to ware off.
Another thing i wish it had is Recovery Aura, but I can live without it. :P
Overall I really like the set and am really enjoying it.
Objective: Painbringer is not on par with Adrenaline boost.
They grant the same regen and recov bonus, but a 50% damage bonus is not as good as a 100% recharge bonus AND slow resistance.
Subjective: The set definatly feels villainous to me, especially the graphics... pure evil right there 
However, Sooth and Soothing Aura could definatly be renamed to something a bit more evil...
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Further edit. The more I thought about it after making this post... the more I like the idea of changing the name of pain domination.
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I really think they should be renamed (following the logic of the renaming of "sonic buff" to "sonic resonance") "Cold Comfort" and "Pain Management" 
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One of the little items that has always bugged me about the corrupter power set, and then a defender power set has been the naming of Cold Domination. It sounds like a control power set, something a DOMINATOR would use.
So here's my suggestion.
Rename the Cold Domination and Pain Domination sets to be Cold Corruption and Pain Corruption
This opens up the cold domination and pain domination names to actually be used for Dominator archtypes.
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I also always thought this.
My feedback after playing 8 levels of Lemniscathe, my new AR/pain corrupter: it's not bad. It is very much like empathy on a defender, but you have smaller numbers so it really does feel a bit like pain management, where you want to 'stay ahead of the pain' and give painkiller before it really starts hurting.
I was duo'ing with my friend's brute (stone/wp) that she turned off experience at the end of level 14 so she could get an arc from Shelley Percy. She sidekicked my new level 2 and we did the Mask Maker mission. A level 10 or 11 widow joined us.
I was not able to keep them healed and shoot much, but, we did finish the mission eventually. Vahz are tough It was very much like, say, an illusion/empathy controller who took 2 heals and spectral wounds, I suppose.
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I would imagine that for Corrupters that take this set they are often looked on like empath hero side, in that they "have" to take every pain power to be a good Heelxor and they should as little blasting as possible. I know that is often the role the healer has to take on but I dont think that has to be the case many times.
[/ QUOTE ] This is exactly why I did it as a mastermind instead of a corrupter. Corrupters level slower without a team. You cant get none of the +dam powers to work solo since most of the powers are team based. Even if you could the damage modifiers are so low and the self buffs are so low it might as well not even give a buff. I choose a mastermind so that I can at least solo when there is no one out there that wants to team. When I am able to team I am still able to contribute damage with ninja and have endurance for heals where as with a corrupter its harder to have endurance for heals and blasts. So even if corrupter numbers are better for the set you make up for it on a mastermind by the damage and aggro control you bring to a team. That being said I can easily see this set being ported back heroside but for controllers only as they would get more benefit out of it in the end game.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
I'm really diggin' mine. Like most of my characters, my PD has endurance issues. I find myself wanting somebody to die so I can rez them and get an end bonus. Kinda makes you wonder if I blamed lag on your death doesn't it? 
I'm with the majority when it comes to the name of the power set. Pain Domination is a bit, well.....inaccurate.
Painbringer should have the same stats Adrenaline boost.
I'm not a numbers person but is Fort the same as World of Pain?
Overall I like the set. My only dislikes are the lack of recovery aura and some of the buffs are whack. That there was a make or break deal that made me choose to do it as a mastermind instead of a corrupter. Recovery Aura was definately wanted because of hami raids for sure. What needs to be changed is the buff amount on enforce morale. I dont know who's bright idea was to have this power grant a 5% recharge buff. Seriously that isnt even noticeable in combat. You are looking at a power recharging in like .000005 seconds faster. I know the power is stackable but how can one be expected to stack this power 5 times and keep it on a full team? Thats just insane. There is also a bug with the power where it wont enhance recharge if you already have some +recharge buffs on you already. I say make the buff a flat 25% buff to recharge and remove the stacking. 25% isnt bad considering that speed boost is better in every way. Aside from that everything else is good about the set.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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The big problem with your suggestion though is that what you describe is better suited in-game playwise for Dominators. What it sounds like you want is a Pain based set for dominators with holds, immobilizes, and status effects based on inflicting mental pain, with one or two low level heals.
That actually sounds like a really good idea.
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Your exactly right, what I'm describing in the initial post is "Pain Domination" and it certainly would be something I could see a Dominator or Mastermind using effectively. My problem with it being "Pain Emptahy" is that when the developers opened up the topic of "Pain Domination" they specifically said that they had a problem with giving us empathy, they simply didn't think it was villainous.
Just renaming the set is both a kop-out and a let down.
If your going to give us empathy, just do it. Some villains do feel empathy for members within their own cause, or for underlings who are useful and should be kept around (and kept loyal) for future missions. I (unlike the devs) have never had a problem with villains gaining the empathy powerset.
However for "Pain Domination" I'm looking for something else. Heres a sample of what I want to see:
Inflict Pain: The target and everyone close to him suffers from a quick blast of intense pain. This causes them to be momentarilly immobolized and take moderate damage over time.
Agony: The target suffers intense pain causing them to move and attack much more slowly and with lowered accuracy. The target also takes moderate damage over time.
Remove Pain: For a short time your target feels no pain. This buff heals the target a small bit and gives them some decent resistances to all damage types for several minutes.
Inflict Pain: a single enemy falls to the ground and wriths in agony while you or your pets are able to attack them.
Transfer Pain: Heals all allies in a 25 ft radius of you and transfers that pain in the form of damage to all enemies within the same radius.
Numb Pain: While this toggle is activated members of your group are numb to pain. This gives them extra resistence to all damage, but as they are no longer aware of being hit their defense goes down.
The concept is Pain Domination, I buff my friends and hurt my enemies by total control over pain itself. This is the exact reverse of empathy, it's a set for people who like to inflict, feel, and manipulate pain.
Objectively I say what we have is empathy renamed not Pain Domination. Subjectively these are my suggestions for an actual "Pain domination" set. It's what was advertised, even at the start of this topic: The antithesis of Empathy.
Use the following topic to discuss Issue 13's Pain Domination.
<ul type="square">[*] Villains can now bend the power of pain to serve their own ends! Those playing a Corruptor or Mastermind have access to this new powerset. The antithesis of the Hero healing powerset "Empathy," Pain Domination brings parity between Heroes and Villains with a distinctively evil flair.[/list]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feedback is important to our development process, there are two types of feedback and both are helpful although some give us more insight and are more easily adapted into game changes.
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