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I have not seen one person really make the argument yet that they love doing long 4 and 5 hour taskforces which is in truth exactly what this update is all about.
And what I said about being friends with the dev's isn't a "git" it's an observation about a regular core of posters here who's noses are browner than the air in Bejing.
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Hi. I'm not part of the 'regular core of posters'. I'm someone who plays the game and stays the hell away from the boards precisely because of this sort of idiocy.
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Don't accuse me of drama because I had the guts to come in here and dissent and tell the truth.
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Ok. I'll accuse you of drama because that's the truth of what I've seen since I made the mistake of reading this thread.
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Here is one of them:
"The vast majority of players do not like long TFs"
So the idiocy of using the Merit system to force gamers to do more long TF's is obvious. Defending this merit system as is, is buffoonery at best and you can all insult me and flame me all you want.
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Umm... except the merit system isn't forcing anyone to do ANYthing. It's an attempt to make the rewards for running TFs consistent in terms of time. If you don't want to run a long TF... run two short ones. TADA! Same number of merits! (Approximately)
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This Merit system isn't like a bad nerf or taking away a power. where you can just ditch one alt or respec. This is a sweeping epic game change for the worse.
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The only way I can see this definitely being 'for the worse' at this stage is if you are bemoaning the loss of being able to farm Katie. And I just don't have any sympathy for that.
Also, this is the same kind of argument we heard back with ED. Massive amounts of moaning and wailing and teeth-gnashing, and in the end, it was a positive change than made the game *better*.
I *am* worried that the merit system is going to have an adverse affect on Wentworth's / Black Market, but we won't know if that's going to happen until everything goes live and we see how the markets actually shake out.
Unlike some people, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and see how things pan out. And if it turns out to be bad, I have faith that changes will be made. Historically speaking, that's what I've seen with this game, which is why I get so tired of all the proclamations of DOOOOOOM.
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I had to say it just one more time, and to those of you who have been rude and insulting to me because I had the audacity to state the merit system sucks - happy thanksgiving!
So, finally here is the door hitting me on the way out...
*wave*
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Happy Turkey Day to you, too! Buh-bye.
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When this goes live, I'll be earning merits even if I don't touch Doc Q's TF (for instance,) just at a slower rate.
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Minor nitpick, even with the higher reward for Doc Q, it's already been figured that the shorter TFs are still the faster way to earn merits, anyway. It's just that, for those that already want to go through the TF, they aren't stuck with teh exact same reward they would have gotten on one of those ten minute TFs.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Snippet, and emphasis is mine:
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Don't accuse me of drama because I had the guts to come in here and dissent and tell the truth.
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So it takes "guts" now to post text on a message board? Perhaps I should look that up. I would suggest a look at 2b.
I think the term you were looking for is "internuts."
Also, simply supporting a change that moves a system closer to a logical one is not being a "fanboi." Merits are an attempt to bring parity to the TFs in this game. Their original intention as multi-session group events was rarely realized (aka used). As a direct result people played them straight through, so only the short one are run regularily.
This game, and TFs, are a means of entertainment based on comic book lore and comic style action. At the risk of sounding like I am telling you how to play: the intention of the game is not to collect intangible luxury items (IOs).
So, what this boils down to is, the reality that the content (TFs) are to provide story and background as well as provide a reward as a congratulations for completing it. Unfortunately the amount of "virtual work" required to run a KHTF, an ITF, a Doc Q TF, and the others are not the same. Yet, they have been providing the same reward. I wonder which ones will get run more often? Post-i13, a metric will have been established by which we can finally view TFs as rewarding based on "virtual effort."
TL;DR Version:
You are wrong, and I agree with That1GuyUKnow.
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Merits are an attempt to bring parity to the TFs in this game. Their original intention as multi-session group events was rarely realized (aka used). As a direct result people played them straight through, so only the short one are run regularily.
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The 'short' ones weren't meant to be short. This is where the disparity came about. The introduction of IO's made the ones that could be shortened more desireable to run. The reward required less time. Katie was merely the first one found to be able to be made shorter. The reason wasn't even the end reward, but for gaining ten SOs for an AV. 10 SOs were the original -tangible- reward.
With Merits as yet another form of currency, it will be a matter of time before the most efficient means of getting them is found. The problem isn't the loot, it's the descision to make gaining the loot into a WoW-like time sink.
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This game, and TFs, are a means of entertainment based on comic book lore and comic style action. At the risk of sounding like I am telling you how to play: the intention of the game is not to collect intangible luxury items (IOs).
[/ QUOTE ]
Many things have changed (and not neccessarily for the better) in this game. One of the selling points for me, when I bought it was no PvP. That changed and changed the game, making it less desirable for me to play as a direct result. It's largely lootless design has slowly become a loot heavy one. Powers are now being changed and designed based on IO builds. This hardly makes them luxuries. While I was able to eke my way to 70 in WoW with mostly greens and blues, if all there was to do there was combat it would have grown tiresome. There is much less to do in CoH beyond combat.
One of the other selling points was the jump on/jump off nature of CoH gameplay. This was always a strength of CoH. Trying to compete with WoW on WoW's terms is not going to be healthy for CoH.
While I can agree with the use of merits as rewards, I disagree with diminishing returns. However long it takes is how long it takes and should not be subject to diminishing returns.
And don't get me started on the pretentiousness of some snarky bum-on-shoulders type stating it's virtual so it's all intangible.
Honest, we get it. It's a computer game, it's not real. You are NOT telling us anything new. Telling us this in no way makes you better, wiser or more balanced human being. It just shows your desire to be smugly superior, something that runs rampant on these boards.
If it changes gameplay, it's a tangible commodity, if it doesn't affect gameplay it's intangible, 'virtually' speaking that is.
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So, what this boils down to is, the reality that the content (TFs) are to provide story and background as well as provide a reward as a congratulations for completing it.
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No, the story and background are window dressing. The gameplay is what keeps folk coming back. The tangible rewards are what keep people re-doing them. Many have time-sink restrictions arbitrarily placed on them via travel times. Many people only do the big-six heroside for the accolade reward, at least in the circles I know. Add an accolade to the Shard TF's and let Villains and Heros team up there, and I bet you'd see more folk doing them.
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Unfortunately the amount of "virtual work" required to run a KHTF, an ITF, a Doc Q TF, and the others are not the same. Yet, they have been providing the same reward.
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I think the problem people are having is the greater time sink to get the same level of reward (a random roll). The question is, 'is the baseline to get to that reward going to encourage or discourage more play?' Personally, I think diminishing returns discourages.
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I wonder which ones will get run more often?
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The one that grants the most merits for the least amount of time. duh.. That'll be where the farmers are.. skewing the datamine. The shortcuts are already there, waiting to be exploited.
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Post-i13, a metric will have been established by which we can finally view TFs as rewarding based on "virtual effort."
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Which is always going to be skewed based on whatever the reward/effort is most favorable when datamined.
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TL;DR Version:
You are wrong, and I agree with That1GuyUKnow.
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That's really a stupid arguement. If the disattisfied leave, revenue dries up, issues become smaller and farther between. That particular post exemplifies the 'snarky bum-on-shoulders smug holier than thou' attitude that closes more doors than it opens.
If you don't care if IOs go away, why on earth do you care if one TF rewards IOs 'better' than another? Oh yeah.. smug superiority..
gg
~Liberty~
The LEGION (CoH) - The Fallen LEGION (CoV)
Forget your fears and want no more
50's - Renkoro, Remorseless
~Virtue~
Angry Angels / Jaded Angels
Global - @Puretone
Loot is automatically a time sink in any MMO. This MMO simply kept (and still keeps) it marginal. There's not a single person who can't get by without IOs in PvE. The game isn't balanced by anything but the most basic loot (SOs).
Also, if you choose not to PvP, I don't really see how it affects you. There has been very little done to PvE due to PvP changes.
Ultimately, the goal for this MMO seems to be to reward people who put in the time with high rewards, while maintaining high levels of playability for casual gamers so that they remain competitive with those who grind.
Merits, in effect, slows down the rate that those high rewards are given out to grinders, simply because they (not all, but many) were grinding something that gave out rewards at a rate higher than acceptable for the Devs. Simultaneously, it allows casual gamers an actual better chance to work toward what they want over time.
In other words, this is a correction to a system in order to close the competitive gap between hard core and casual gamers, while still allowing the hard core gamers to gain more with more effort.
People who still run a Katie a day and then go off to do whatever else are going to gain well.
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Loot is automatically a time sink in any MMO. This MMO simply kept (and still keeps) it marginal. There's not a single person who can't get by without IOs in PvE. The game isn't balanced by anything but the most basic loot (SOs).
Also, if you choose not to PvP, I don't really see how it affects you. There has been very little done to PvE due to PvP changes.
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Enough to cancel my second account over a PvE nerf to a powerset due to PvP IO builds. If a power is changed due to IO builds, guess what.. that's balancing the power around the IO build, not the SO one.
[ QUOTE ]
Ultimately, the goal for this MMO seems to be to reward people who put in the time with high rewards, while maintaining high levels of playability for casual gamers so that they remain competitive with those who grind.
Merits, in effect, slows down the rate that those high rewards are given out to grinders, simply because they (not all, but many) were grinding something that gave out rewards at a rate higher than acceptable for the Devs. Simultaneously, it allows casual gamers an actual better chance to work toward what they want over time.
In other words, this is a correction to a system in order to close the competitive gap between hard core and casual gamers, while still allowing the hard core gamers to gain more with more effort.
People who still run a Katie a day and then go off to do whatever else are going to gain well.
[/ QUOTE ]
In the last year or so, WoW went from 8 million to 11 million subscribers. (At least if the commercials are to be believed.) This was done despite the release of two major competing PvP oriented games.
Guess what else... rewards were made more easily obtainable, and better to boot.
I'd love to see this game have a scenario whether it's a TF, Trial or zone event that's insanely hard but has a chance of an insanely great reward for sucess.
I just don't agree with the seemingly constant 'what can't I do now in this issue that I could before' philosophy that persists even after Statesman is long gone.
~Liberty~
The LEGION (CoH) - The Fallen LEGION (CoV)
Forget your fears and want no more
50's - Renkoro, Remorseless
~Virtue~
Angry Angels / Jaded Angels
Global - @Puretone
[ QUOTE ]
Enough to cancel my second account over a PvE nerf to a powerset due to PvP IO builds. If a power is changed due to IO builds, guess what.. that's balancing the power around the IO build, not the SO one.
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Out of curiosity, what change was that?
[ QUOTE ]
In the last year or so, WoW went from 8 million to 11 million subscribers. (At least if the commercials are to be believed.) This was done despite the release of two major competing PvP oriented games.
Guess what else... rewards were made more easily obtainable, and better to boot.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been out of WoW for a while now (with no intention of going back), so I'm not sure what changes they've made to rewards. It was a pretty lame grindfest to get them before, though.
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I'd love to see this game have a scenario whether it's a TF, Trial or zone event that's insanely hard but has a chance of an insanely great reward for sucess.
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That's what TFs are supposed to be like. Which is why I think the Devs really need to look at revamping disliked TFs, and having badge/Accolade awards tied to all of them, one way or another. The insanely great rewards are the Merits that we use to pick the rewards we want (the fairest system I've seen, IMO). It's just that many of the old TFs are just not fun enough. LGTFs and ITFs are still fun, because they truly feel like something out of comic books. With that in mind, maybe they should look at re-doing many of the old TFs.
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I just don't agree with the seemingly constant 'what can't I do now in this issue that I could before' philosophy that persists even after Statesman is long gone.
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this, but not since ED and the GDN has there been a game-wide decrease in cross-AT baseline performance. Otherwise, most issues have come with an increase in said cross-AT baseline performance.
IOs, of course, are not baseline performance. They are supposed to be like the non-stock items from other games like WoW. TF and Trial pool drops are supposed to be those rare drops, which we can now work towards without running TFs. Ultra Rare recipes are actually easier to gain in this game than most--all you need to do is play the game within range of a level 50 recipe drop.
With the Merit system, the flexibility has been given to the Devs to go back and redesign old and disliked TFs. They can simply concentrate on making compelling story arcs and let the Merit system worry about reward. It'll be a great system, especially with some highly possible tweaks down the road (like rewards being affected by difficulty), now there just needs to be the content that keeps us coming back.
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Enough to cancel my second account over a PvE nerf to a powerset due to PvP IO builds. If a power is changed due to IO builds, guess what.. that's balancing the power around the IO build, not the SO one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, what change was that?
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This one I think
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
[ QUOTE ]
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Enough to cancel my second account over a PvE nerf to a powerset due to PvP IO builds. If a power is changed due to IO builds, guess what.. that's balancing the power around the IO build, not the SO one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, what change was that?
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This one I think
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That's a bug fix, though. Not anything due specifically to PvP or IOs, as far as I'm aware.
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So the idiocy of using the Merit system to force gamers to do more long TF's is obvious. Defending this merit system as is, is buffoonery at best and you can all insult me and flame me all you want.
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Force = to make someone do something against their will. (Ignoring such other definitions such as the physics definition of mass times acceleration.)
If you were being told "You must run X TF before you get another level" or "You must run X TF before you can get any more contacts," you would be "forced" (as much as you can be in a video game.)
If you want to look at it that way, fine. Just tell me what's preventing you from doing something else for those merits? The same ones awarded for *other* TFs, story arcs and whatnot? Where is the forcing? When this goes live, I'll be earning merits even if I don't touch Doc Q's TF (for instance,) just at a slower rate.
Instead, you are being given a greater reward, with the metrics given (and, yes, adjusted by the devs as they see fit, whether you or I agree with the levels or not,) as a reward for running the longer task forces.
Do I *agree* with it? In a way, yes. On the other hand, I *don't* like the low levels given for some that other players have managed to bork for me by "speeding" them, and have suggested alternate reward schemes (merits for X bad guys defeated) which would reward those that don't speed through them.
As far as insulting? Don't take your opinion (flawed though it seems from a quick read) so highly. I agree with the addition of the system in general. I have nits to pick with several items (such as the replacement of the end roll option and, as mentioned, having my reward lowered for the actions of others,) but in general I look forward to it.
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This Merit system isn't like a bad nerf or taking away a power. where you can just ditch one alt or respec. This is a sweeping epic game change for the worse.
[/ QUOTE ]
... is, quite frankly, overly dramatic and *wrong.* It's not a "sweeping, epic change." it doesn't force (your own word) you to play any differently. I'll be playing the exact same way in I13 as I am now in I12, with the addition of an alt or two. And I11, and I10. The only change that may come about is how I approach PVP zones - something that has nothing to do with merits. And just like Vanguard merits, one day I'll remember to check that tab and go "Oh, I have enough for such-and-such. Cool." Then I'll go in, redeem them, and head on to the next story arc, or TF, or sit-in-base-and-chat-with-friends, or zone event or whatever I was doing.