sadly, the original discussion of this got eaten by the forum, I'll see what I can remember.
How about multiple SGs at once?
Characters can do this now by quitting and rejoining, but it's very clumsy. The idea is to allow them to remain on both rosters, using each as needed.
Just like a character can chat to multiple channels (team, broadcast, local), or kind of how a player can be in many global channels, how about each character able to enroll in more than one SG?
To continue the global channel analogy, you may be in some public channels, some private, may be an operator in some and not others. Each SG would be completely separate - your promotion status in one SG only affects that SG. One SG doesn't see the others rosters or coalitions. It would simply give one character multiple bases to enter, the option to join different raid teams without switching SGs, and the ability to earn prestige for many groups without losing connections/rank/totals in other groups.
If a character made a SG of just themselves, then suddenly they have an "apartment" as people keep requesting. Thus people in public SGs can also create personal SGs now and gain access to things like personal bases and private storage.
On the other hand, there are many players who favor the personal functions and refuse to join more public SGs because of that. Giving them the ability to do both provides more potential members for those larger multiplayer SGs.
there are a few odd issues, but they seem easily solvable.
Chatting over a general Supergroup channel would probably need a different channel per group. eg, [Supergroup][$Groupname]$character: message.
SG Mode should probably apply for one group at a time, not for all. This helps decide which logo and colors to use on the costume. This keeps Prestige earning to its current levels.
One SG Mode at a time could solve other issues that would be confused by 2 SGs. For example, which SG is shown in the target box, or which SG are you paying rent for? If those are limited to the SG you're in SG Mode for, they aren't problems.
The bottom line is this: it's currently possible to support multiple SGs, but an inconvenience to switch rosters. You reset your totals and your rank, you need to track down someone for an invite. Make that a little easier by letting someone hold space on many rosters, but only activate things like SG Mode and Chat for one roster at a time.
Mad -
I think I disagree about making Tech Empowerment Stations take only Tech Salvage and vice versa. I rather like the fact that the 2-item recipes are identical for both types of Empowerment Stations. It lets me place only the Arcane one in my Arcane-themed base, instead of having to hide a Tech Station in a corner somewhere.
Plus the idea of having to keep in stock both Tech & Arcane Salvage for Empowerments in the current state of limited storage (either in a Rack or on the character) actually makes a requirement of having only one type of Salvage used on a particular Station a bit more onerous rather than less so, as you argue.
Since that point is opinion only, perhaps you should remove it from the list of "Issues"?
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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I think I disagree about making Tech Empowerment Stations take only Tech Salvage and vice versa. I rather like the fact that the 2-item recipes are identical for both types of Empowerment Stations. It lets me place only the Arcane one in my Arcane-themed base, instead of having to hide a Tech Station in a corner somewhere.
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This is why I mentioned the misperception that they are identical. They are not.
Any recipe that has an odd number of ingredients will see the last ingredient is different. eg, KB Increase, Recovery.
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Plus the idea of having to keep in stock both Tech & Arcane Salvage for Empowerments in the current state of limited storage (either in a Rack or on the character) actually makes a requirement of having only one type of Salvage used on a particular Station a bit more onerous rather than less so, as you argue.
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At one level tier, to cover every recipe on one station, you need 24 pieces, 12 common and 12 uncommon. If the station only used Tech, it would form its recipe list from only 12 pieces. That should make it easier to provide a stash for each recipe, right?
Note how each piece would probably be in twice as many recipes, this makes your stash more useful. (and perhaps helps people stumble upon something they'd like to use where they may normally not see any craftable options on the station at all.)
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Since that point is opinion only, perhaps you should remove it from the list of "Issues"?
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I was not the only one to take issue with the interweaving of tech and arcane pieces.
Do you still think it's not a good point after the replies to your other 2 paragraphs?
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Base Usage
[*]Teleport Beacons are difficult to distinguish, especially Arcane ones. Even when distinguished it's hard to know which beacon goes to which porter. (Though in fairness, is that second issue more of an architect problem than a dev problem?) Suggestion: Have all active beacons usable from any teleporter (similar to how a storage log works on all tables at once) so you don't need to go searching.
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I Second this one
[ QUOTE ][*]Power Liberator / Master Thief is not obtainable. Given questions about how it was earned, perhaps the fairest solution is to change the badge requirement to winning any raid by any victory condition.
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what is this?!?!?!?! i have never seen this badge and it does not show up on Badge- hunter
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[ QUOTE ][*]Power Liberator / Master Thief is not obtainable. Given questions about how it was earned, perhaps the fairest solution is to change the badge requirement to winning any raid by any victory condition.
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what is this?!?!?!?! i have never seen this badge and it does not show up on Badge- hunter
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no? Maybe because it's not obtainable right now they're not tracking it.
Indications are that the initial design goal was for "taking an IOP in a raid." as in, encouragement for the scheduled raid system. Thus, the Liberator/Thief name.
In implementation, the badge was given for "winning a raid via clicking on the opponent's IOP" (as opposed to winning via planting beacons or destroying anchors) regardless of the IOP actually changing hands in a pickup raid. As you can clearly see, such a reward was easily ... arranged ... between 2 raiding parties, and we'll hopefully leave the recurring argument there, it's perhaps better suited for the badge forum.
It's not obtainable because there are no longer IOPs to be clicked on. I guess it's likely still active in the system.
Storage for Inf (though would it be degenerate since the character limit on Inf is so insanely high?)
I would like to see this as well and also have base upkeep come out of that as well instead of having to go and visit someone to make a payment.
You only fail if you give up. - Dana Scully
Time Jesum Transeuntum Et Non Riverentum - Nick Cave
We're not just destroyers, at the same time we can be saviors. - Allen Walker
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The Supercomputer/Orbits of Control can attach 9 aux items. <-Flaw #1 it should be greater than the previous.
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Why? The items it can take produce 10 times the Control of the Mainframe-only items. *That* is the advantage.
Besides, does anyone really attach 9 items to either? 9 on the Mainframe in a room that can hold them is way more expensive than getting the same control fom the Supercomputer. 9 on the Supercomputer is such overkill I don't know of anyone who's done it. I have a suspicion they gave each Main a number pretty high (assuming code required some number and wouldn't just take "Unlimited") figuring the real limit is by the room you're using. With Lord Recluse gone from the dev team we may never know.
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I would like to point out that apparently I was right in it being a flaw. Of course we only got half a solution (old versions still have the 1 connection limit, while "new" versions go up to 9).
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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The Supercomputer/Orbits of Control can attach 9 aux items. <-Flaw #1 it should be greater than the previous.
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Why? The items it can take produce 10 times the Control of the Mainframe-only items. *That* is the advantage.
Besides, does anyone really attach 9 items to either? 9 on the Mainframe in a room that can hold them is way more expensive than getting the same control fom the Supercomputer. 9 on the Supercomputer is such overkill I don't know of anyone who's done it. I have a suspicion they gave each Main a number pretty high (assuming code required some number and wouldn't just take "Unlimited") figuring the real limit is by the room you're using. With Lord Recluse gone from the dev team we may never know.
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I would like to point out that apparently I was right in it being a flaw. Of course we only got half a solution (old versions still have the 1 connection limit, while "new" versions go up to 9).
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uh... Snow... that's the AES that got changed to taking 9 control-generating Aux. Your quote was about the Supercomputer only taking 9. Different item.
Right. I meant the second point of that post, not the first which was the one quoted:
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Base building flaws:
The Mainframe/Magic Axis can attach 9 aux items.
The Supercomputer/Orbits of Control can attach 9 aux items. <-Flaw #1 it should be greater than the previous.
AES/Mystic Orrey can attach one Mission Computer/Oracle. <-Flaw #2 it should be greater than the previous.
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All three levels of control items are now the exact same in terms of how many aux items.
That, to me, is a flaw. Each level up should do three things: generate more control, provide more aux connections, and allow superior items to be connected.
We have the first, the second has a problem, and the third is only partially done.
Admittedly it was worse pre-issue 13, but having the Mainframe, Supercomputer, and AES (and the arcane equals) have the same amount of connections seems a bit silly.
As to the last, the crafted auxes are still not a better option at the lower end, and there is no need for the higher end items other than decoration.
We need a large influx of functional items.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Why do the Stealth Suppression items lose their laser beams if you move them around after their original placement? I can get the laser effects to come back if I drag them into another room (That supports defense items. And then back again, clearly), but the next time I come into the base these effects are again missing. This makes me cry. In fact, I'm no longer sure if those effects will stick around if I DON'T touch them again after placing them and I'm not inclined to test it out considering that I might have to flush the inf the five I've already made cost.
Why does the Energy Curtain aux. power item not attach to the Turbine Generator?
random thought on this issue,
[ QUOTE ][*]Complete loss of Prestige history and Join On date when you leave a roster (at the very least, if you don't join another group in-between it should remember them)
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What if Join On was replaced by Days on Roster? So change from a single date to an accumulation.
Then a single character could easily retain both Prestige and Days for multiple SGs they've joined, while keeping the 2nd value meaningful.
I like that idea. Right now, I log the prestige numbers for inactive members before they are removed from the SG> Having something that keeps the number of days in "X" SG and the amount of prestige generated duing their time in "X" SG would be a great asset to me.
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I like that idea. Right now, I log the prestige numbers for inactive members before they are removed from the SG> Having something that keeps the number of days in "X" SG and the amount of prestige generated duing their time in "X" SG would be a great asset to me.
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ah, that's what I was dancing around! you have inspired me!
it's easier to judge "history" in terms of a raw number than a date comparison.
but you show that it's also going to be easier to view Prestige Per Time if you have 2 numbers to divide!
Addition to the list:
Remove the dumb requirement that you have to have base edit rights to convert Inf to prestige.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Addition to the list:
Remove the dumb requirement that you have to have base edit rights to convert Inf to prestige.
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in all snarkyness...
isn't that a safety to prevent the less-educated from throwing their Inf away?
A "blank" SG logo or the ability not to have a logo on the SG items will be needed after the patch on test goes live.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
So.... I didn't see any base changes for i15.... bummer...
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So.... I didn't see any base changes for i15.... bummer...
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Broken banner art, broken wall items, overflow of item limits, broken AES, broken rez rings, the cross-faction swapping exploit that required they disable storage for a few weeks, the storage permission hack, disabling raiding, teammates kicked from your base, the FedEx PL exploit with the Cathedral, losing all SG badges, losing a whole base.
Yeah, some of that got fixed relatively quickly, but it all broke during issue releases.
Will I15 be our first patch that doesn't actually break something about bases?
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Will I15 be our first patch that doesn't actually break something about bases?
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Is that even legal?
Quote:
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Daemonchilde: ((fluffy thinks he's a tank)) Demon . Hunter: (( I think mine is >.> Daemonchilde: ((Yours is no longer fluffy, it is Obliteron, destroyer of worlds)) |
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Will I15 be our first patch that doesn't actually break something about bases?
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Is that even legal?
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I'll make it legal! Though it would really buck tradition. 
Speaking of I15, I discovered a Villain happened to have been auto-promoted enough to pay rent on a fallow VG. To my surprise, it still had two Anger Monuments functioning. I guess they didn't run the purge on test.
when r we gonna get a redname in on this?
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
<ul type="square"> [*]Inability for PVE players to use a defending base during a raid. Why not instance the raiding base, and leave a copy for use by the rest of the SG while the raid is underway? Note that the PVE functions of an attacking base remain usable for people not in the attacking raid force.
[*]Attacking teams can have SG and coalition member "buff bots" sitting in their base providing raid help, Defenders can not. This is an imbalance. (Note that instancing the bases on a single map to speed up loading would also balance this - both sides could only use coalition bots outside in the zone.)[/list]
Better yet, just try an immersion thing. You'd be surprised how exciting it would be:
<ul type="square">[*]When a raid starts, everyone is kicked from both bases except the SG members.[*]No "raid" to join. Everyone in the SG is either an attacker or defender by default. Go into your base to help out and you're in the raid.[*]Thus those "not" in the raid cannot use their base. Well, they can, of course, but they're at risk during the raid.[*]Raid window thus pops up for any SG member in either base. Members not involved, i.e. in the "real" world, can open it to look at it if they like. Can join in by entering their base.[*]Small issues:
- Lot of players enter the base one at a time to delay the win.
- Player leaves bases to go buy hot dog from vendor and doesn't want to return.
Thus a raid becomes more like a real, uncontrollable thing rather than a scheduled event.
Yes, I yearn for true, live events.
"Hey! You knocked generic cola all over your precious D20 books!"
ED: Now I know how Nancy Kerrigan felt: "Why...?!? Why...?!?"
Storage Issue
I understand the need to require expensive room purchases to allow additional storage. But I don't like being required to put the actual storage bins in their respective rooms.
It makes difficult a cohesive base design since now a room you may have marked out as being, say, a power room, has to have a weird storage rack in it. :-/
And no, I can't bury it because then nobody can access it.
There's only a limited amount of facade I can put on it, too, to make it not look like an old storage shelf, without interfering with the clickability of it. This is already hit-or-miss and semi-independent of actual visibility thanks to mouse hit boxes.
Secondary Suggestion
It would be nice to be able to tag any object (or group of objects, if grouping ever becomes allowed) to be the storage clickee. This would allow you to build your own rack, so to speak, and use that instead. (I don't know if these are destroyable in base raids, which could be a problem if people try to make a little heart-in-a-jar be the storage rack just for the raid.)
"Hey! You knocked generic cola all over your precious D20 books!"
ED: Now I know how Nancy Kerrigan felt: "Why...?!? Why...?!?"
Updates for I13. (sorry this got delayed.)<ul type="square">
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Empowerment:
[*]Tech stations should only use Tech salvage, Arcane stations should only use Arcane salvage. They should not mix and match the types within each recipe. This achieves the following:
- Characters on storyarcs spend long stretches fighting one origin of foe. Requiring both origins of salvage makes it far less likely to complete a recipe via drops.
- Reinforces roleplay.
- It would be clearer that there are actual differences between the 2 stations, currently a lot of people assume they're identical and remove one option.
- This would double the amount of recipe options. Again, making it more likely to get the right drops for one of them. And when the drops alone don't fill a recipe, players would have more options for what pieces do complete them, overcoming troubles like market shortages of a particular piece, or limited resources in storage.
[*]In general, Empowerment has a lot of issues. Another thread will be started for those. But in relation to I13, the change to Invention salvage has caused the following concerns:
- Empowerment seems more expensive now. In particular, with a lack of Real Number information on the craftings and the mistake of saying they last only 15 minutes (8.16.06 patch notes say they are meant to last an hour), a higher cost just makes matters worse.
- Characters do not have the capacity to hold a lot of empowerment ingredients as they could with Components. This makes it harder to plan ahead.
- The recipe list is more complex. Compounding that, it's far away from the Market. Markets in the base may help here.
- Using a community stash of salvage is a pain because of the number of pieces vs the size of the bin, and the lack of sorting. (eg, if you see you need one Circuit Board to complete a recipe, you may have to check many bins to find one. Previously, it was easy to set up a tech bin full of the 4 tech components people went looking for.)
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Storage, in particular the I13 change to storing Invention Salvage:
[*]Invention Salvage is considered to be worth more than Base Salvage was. So storage security is more of an issue protecting against theft.[*]Invention Salvage has more uses than Base Salvage had (doing the job of both now). So storage security is more of an issue protecting against gluttony.[*]Capacity is far too low. It's low compared to one character (are we supposed to return to using mules?) It's low when you factor in holiday salvage. It's low considering the amount of different items you may want to group together in one bin for organizational reasons.
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General issues
[*]IO Salvage is seen as more valuable than Base Salvage. That relates to the following points:
- Worry over crafted item deletion.
- Concern about the lack of group contributions to base needs.
- Lack of crafted item information before spending salvage.
- Empowerment costs and storage concerns (see above)
[*]Rent is now so low as to be meaningless. What is the goal of this new cost structure? Most people see rent as a mere annoyance now, not as a game feature.
(Numbers: People on the 8x12 plot have received a prestige refund of 1,569,861. 18 storage items and an empowerment station is 2,100 rent. That's 747 rent payments. That's 4,482 weeks. The smallest of plot upgrades has freed up enough prestige to handle rent for the next 86 years. Why do we still have rent at all?)
[*]Wall items can not be placed on South and West walls.
[*]The Editor is harder to use with the ability to overlap items. Suggestions: A control for snap-to-grid layout. Another control for restricting movement to along a single axis.
[*]Magic Doors are not usable because of pathing code changes. Will they be supported directly some time in the future? Are they unsupported because larger rooms are now more affordable?
[*]Plot costs for smaller Secure plots are equal to Hidden. What is the design goal? What is the cost for the Secure Plot advantages?
[*]Is crafting still meaningful? Recipes take very few pieces, making it less important to contribute as a group. Crafting is a 1-time trivial action. There are related issues such as deleting crafted items. Is the system at all worth the design that's in it?
[*]The change to the functionality of an item controlled by permissions (in this case: storage) highlighted the need to demote offline and hidden characters so SGs could better adapt to the new permission effect. Maybe no longer an issue for I13, but it would be nice to see this in place for future changes to security-related items.
[*]In general, I13 has made it easier for a smaller roster to achieve more base function and area. This removes some of the game's incentive for forming larger rosters. Will we ever get higher-level stuff to work towards?
[*]Midnighter Club could use a teleporter, especially now with a contact inside. (There's a workaround on the Pillar if you're not on a team or TF. This is clumsy.) Concerns were raised about beacons and both roleplay and function with the badge, but how about a Midnighter-specific Teleport Main item?
[*]There is little balance from a Basic vs Advanced vs Elite cannon. The placement is the same, crafting differences are now very minor. There's no cost benefit to the lighter weapons if the real limiting factor is not resources, but is placement space. To illustrate that, consider consider a level 50 IO vs a 20 - it's still one slot - but 50's from different sets present an interesting choice. So perhaps cannons needs all the same base stats, and some other difference that's more interesting and can be used to design a raid defense.
[*]There's no longer a Special Salvage reward for PVP missions, such as Alien Tech, Astrology Book. Will those missions get a different buff? Hopefull a buff related to supergroups.[/list]
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Appendix: Items fixed in I13
Note: any pathing issues in the prior posts are not going to be marked "solved" until the raid system is returned and we see what pathing looks like. It's possible that old issues will still remain just as they were described. Remember, it is unfair to fix pathing only for people who ignore the raid function of bases!
Developers please note: if building rules for raids are too restrictive, it makes an indirect cost on the raiding system.
The following are no longer issues.
- Any Base Salvage issues.
- Pocket D now has a beacon. Add Cimerora to the list in its place.
- SG Costume Color settings are fixed. All items are now colorable, and each costume is separate.
- Return to Mission Teleporter is NOT a fixed issue. Having a clickable character power to do that does not replace the question of a base item.