[ QUOTE ]
Why is this...
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AoE immobilizes are problematic. Since they appear in most of the Dominator primaries, and usually before pool powers are available, the AoE immobilizes should be a staple of the control sets. However, they are a common cause of frustration for new Dominators, and typically skipped or rarely used by more experienced Dominators. The specific problems with these powers are:
- They generate a significant amount of aggro for the caster. In CoV, especially at low levels, there is very little effective aggro management, so the AoE immobilize is very likely to cause a large return attack.
- They make affected mobs less controllable. The granted Knock* protection, damage over time, and immobilization mean that many control effects will no longer affect them, namely knock*, fear, sleep, and "run away" effects.
- While they can be used to force enemies to use ranged attacks, the Dominator's low hit points mean those attacks are still very dangerous.
The reason this problem is more pronounced for Dominators than Controllers is that Controllers:
- can take advantage of immobilization to keep foes within area debuffs.
- can team with Tankers who can manage aggro.
- do extra damage against immobilized foes with Containment.
[/ QUOTE ]
...on the issue list?
There is no 'solution' as the power works as it's supposed to. It immobilizes large numbers of targets. That's not broken. And comparing it to controller usage is irrelevant as doms are not controllers.
It seems the complaint is AoE immobs should come with a warning label. Well that's what the forums are for:
"Don't take your aoe immobilize if you're new to the AT."
Now if the complaint is that the endurance cost is way too high for what you get out of it (now here's where comparing to trollers would be appropriate as immob leads to containment), then I'd be all for that.
[/ QUOTE ]
I found that odd as well. Mass Immobs are a control, they are great for Teams, not for solo play. Thems the breaks I suppose.
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Why is this...
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AoE immobilizes are problematic. . . .
[/ QUOTE ]
...on the issue list?
[/ QUOTE ]
The AoE immobilize issue has been on the list for a long time. (Since 12th May 2006 to be precise.) At that time there were a large number of people having trouble playing Dominators, and this was a significant contributing factor to their misery. While these problems have significantly diminished on the forums, possibly due to the large number of guides, we have no way of knowing how things are playing out in-game.
[ QUOTE ]
There is no 'solution' as the power works as it's supposed to. It immobilizes large numbers of targets. That's not broken.
[/ QUOTE ]
The issues list also raises issues at the level of intention, pointing out that the error is there. Consider the activation time of Flares, it was always supposed to be that long, but players pointed out that it was bad, and it has now been fixed.
[ QUOTE ]
And comparing it to controller usage is irrelevant as doms are not controllers.
[/ QUOTE ]
The control sets were originally conceived and balanced for Controllers. Much later they were given to Dominators , with essentially zero changes. (Archetype modifiers changed them, as well as bonuses for Domination, and the infamous difference in target cap.) It is natural that things would not fit Dominators in the same way as Controllers, and it behooves us to point out exactly why as clearly as possible.
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It seems the complaint is AoE immobs should come with a warning label. Well that's what the forums are for:
"Don't take your aoe immobilize if you're new to the AT."
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately the forums only cater to a small percentage of the player base.
[ QUOTE ]
Now if the complaint is that the endurance cost is way too high for what you get out of it (now here's where comparing to trollers would be appropriate as immob leads to containment, which we don't get so why does it cost so much?), then I'd be all for that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, this has never been mentioned explicitly, but definitely has some merit as an issue. Roots has it good in this case, 13 instead of 15.6, and double damage.
[ QUOTE ]
I found that odd as well. Mass Immobs are a control, they are great for Teams, not for solo play.
[/ QUOTE ]
The issue is that they are great for some teams, and usually only the best ones. If you use them on a large and inexperienced level 2 team, when they become available, then you are quite likely to die.
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Thems the breaks I suppose.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the purpose of the issues list, pointing out the breaks so they can be fixed. 
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Now if the complaint is that the endurance cost is way too high for what you get out of it (now here's where comparing to trollers would be appropriate as immob leads to containment, which we don't get so why does it cost so much?), then I'd be all for that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, this has never been mentioned explicitly, but definitely has some merit as an issue. Roots has it good in this case, 13 instead of 15.6, and double damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ya know, I never noticed that Roots only costs 13 endurance.
I knew Roots was doing double the damage that other AoE Immobilizes do. So, definitely this issue should stay but perhaps word that the other AoE Immobilizes for Dominators only (Not controllers) should be changed to 13 Endurance and double their current damage like Roots?
Damage Proc Mini-FAQ
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Lili, I'm not sure if you've had any experience with Carrion Creepers yet, I've finally gotten my Plant Dom to it, and I love 'em.
Anyway, I'd like to add to the list that Carrion Creepers lacks any notification of when the "master" pet (The invisible one) has worn off. There is no "buff icon" for Carrion Creepers on the players de/buff Bar, and neither the invisible pet nor the vines appear in the pet window.
Solution: Add Carrion Creepers icon to de/buff bar, or, add Carrion Creepers (But not the vines) to the pet window.
For now, my solution has been to fire Hasten right after I fire Carrion Creepers. When Hasten wears off I know that the "master" pet has faded. But, I can't use Hasten every time that I can use Carrion Creepers.
Damage Proc Mini-FAQ
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Lili, I'm not sure if you've had any experience with Carrion Creepers yet, I've finally gotten my Plant Dom to it, and I love 'em.
Anyway, I'd like to add to the list that Carrion Creepers lacks any notification of when the "master" pet (The invisible one) has worn off. There is no "buff icon" for Carrion Creepers on the players de/buff Bar, and neither the invisible pet nor the vines appear in the pet window.
[/ QUOTE ]
When Carrion Creepers is cast, it creates a cute little patch on the ground, with some vines, and a generally brown tinge to it. I expect that this patch fades at the same time as the power effect ends, and that that is supposed to be how you know. However, the visual patch is immobile, while the pet is mobile, so it's not a very useful cue. My suspicion is that the pet is in fact supposed to be immobile, and it's just a (very cool) bug that it follows you around like it does.
All that aside, I never found that I cared if Carrion Creepers was there or not. Once it had absorbed the initial alpha strike I never found it that dramatically useful, so would lean on the side of non-issue for this one.
What do others think?
And, for the record, I had a level 40 Plant/Psi while that was still the level cap, and even before the issues list existed. Unfortunately I mostly abandoned her when I switched servers.
Hehe, I guess I'm a bit of an exception to the rule. I'm actually building my Plant/Psy Dom to have Perma-Creepers, I absolutely love having those guys around that I summon it every time that it's active.
It would be one of those QoL changes to have a buff icon is all I'm thinking. 
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I found that odd as well. Mass Immobs are a control, they are great for Teams, not for solo play.
[/ QUOTE ]
The issue is that they are great for some teams, and usually only the best ones. If you use them on a large and inexperienced level 2 team, when they become available, then you are quite likely to die.
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Thems the breaks I suppose.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the purpose of the issues list, pointing out the breaks so they can be fixed.
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I don't see how you can 'fix' this power to work better for dominators, though. Like I said, it does what it's supposed to do. There is no problem with it like there was with flares being slower than comparable tier one blasts.
An AoE immob is an AoE immob. It immobs large numbers of targets. Unfortunately, it draws a lot of aggro because it's a control + mez attack. There's nothing to be done about that other than learning when to use it, if at all.
Again, if the issue is the DPE (and here's again where perhaps an argument comparing dom use vs troller use would hold), then I'd say that'd be something everyone could support.
But presenting an AoE immob problem as "if I use it and I'm inexperienced, then I die" won't get it looked at by devs. That's like arguing something should be done about Rain of Fire because corruptors who open with it die.
That's survival of the fittest. It's something you learn not to do very quickly or you move on to a different build.
Please buff Ice Control.
I think that all of the immobs should be brought up to where roots are since it doesn't benefit a dominator as much. Also, carrion should be showed in the pet window (which should automatically pop up when you summon your pet...) because sometimes I might want to stealth a group only to find that carrion pop up and aggro... Also, can you dismiss carrion? I've never tried. Its hard to click on them.
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I think that all of the immobs should be brought up to where roots are since it doesn't benefit a dominator as much. Also, carrion should be showed in the pet window (which should automatically pop up when you summon your pet...) because sometimes I might want to stealth a group only to find that carrion pop up and aggro... Also, can you dismiss carrion? I've never tried. Its hard to click on them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Excellent point for a mechanical reason it should exist in the pet window.
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I don't see how you can 'fix' this power [AoE immobs] to work better for dominators, though.
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This raises the other aspect of the issues list, that it's not just for the devs, it also serves the community. Putting something like this saves repeated discussion on the topic, and let's people who are unfamiliar with the powers what the problems are.
If the game were in beta, would you consider it an issue that needed to be addressed?
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That's survival of the fittest. It's something you learn not to do very quickly or you move on to a different build.
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In a game where you can't take back power selections without the effort of a respec trial, and a full respec, that's not good.
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I think that all of the immobs should be brought up to where roots are since it doesn't benefit a dominator as much. Also, carrion should be showed in the pet window (which should automatically pop up when you summon your pet...) because sometimes I might want to stealth a group only to find that carrion pop up and aggro... Also, can you dismiss carrion? I've never tried. Its hard to click on them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Excellent point for a mechanical reason it should exist in the pet window.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that sounds reasonable. It doesn't obey the /release_pets command, nor does it disappear at the same time as the visuals. I will add this.
Something very minor to add to the Fiery Assault issues:
The delayed explosion sound effect for Incinerate. It's really annoying and a poor auditory cue as it makes you do a double take to see if you're being ambushed, particularly if the target is already defeated.
[ QUOTE ]
Something very minor to add to the Fiery Assault issues:
The delayed explosion sound effect for Incinerate. It's really annoying and a poor auditory cue as it makes you do a double take to see if you're being ambushed, particularly if the target is already defeated.
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Yeah I agree, in fact I just noticed how annoying it is now when I was testing out Flares.
I guess this list is never going to finish!
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I guess this list is never going to finish!
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Probably not, but we're all here to support ya! (I hope) 
Damage Proc Mini-FAQ
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I don't see how you can 'fix' this power [AoE immobs] to work better for dominators, though.
[/ QUOTE ]
This raises the other aspect of the issues list, that it's not just for the devs, it also serves the community. Putting something like this saves repeated discussion on the topic, and let's people who are unfamiliar with the powers what the problems are.
If the game were in beta, would you consider it an issue that needed to be addressed?
[ QUOTE ]
That's survival of the fittest. It's something you learn not to do very quickly or you move on to a different build.
[/ QUOTE ]
In a game where you can't take back power selections without the effort of a respec trial, and a full respec, that's not good.
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Thus the point about being Informed. There are plenty of channels to ask about powers and question game mechanics, because the power does not cater to the inexperienced doesnt mean there is a flaw with the power to begin with.
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Thus the point about being Informed. There are plenty of channels to ask about powers and question game mechanics, because the power does not cater to the inexperienced doesnt mean there is a flaw with the power to begin with.
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The issues list is one of those sources of information about power choices, and hopefully a good one.
I think the disagreement here is about the purpose of the issues list. It's not a letter to the devs with a list of things to fix. It's a purely informational list of problems for the archetype, with no consideration for practicalities. That said, do you think the issue as stated is wrong, or have any objections beyond saying that it's too late/difficult to fix? If the game were in beta, would you consider making changes because of this? Do you really think it's a good idea for Control archetype's first AoE control power to be a suicide power available at level 2?
In regards to the list's purpose, I thought you'd already identified that with this post:
[ QUOTE ]
Well, the time has come for the final draft before I repost the list, ask for it to be stickied, and ask the devs to come and look at it. So, it's your last chance to give it a good going over! The next post is the new version of the list, and all the changes are in the post after that.
[/ QUOTE ]
The implication of the bolded section is you're hoping the devs will look at the issues and make changes or justify their decisions as 'working as intended'.
But if the purpose is providing an overview of AT challenges, then rewording the AoE immob section is in order. Something to the effect of "don't use your AoE immob as an alpha". As it currently reads, the immob section identifies the AoE as a flawed power. As if there's something 'wrong' with it that needs 'fixing'.
As I've argued, there's nothing wrong with the power other than its use requires sound tactics. If that's an issue, then you could probably double the size of the list as there are plenty of powers that will get you killed if you use them improperly or in an untimely fashion.
Last point I'll make. AoE immobs have gained in recognition for their ability to slot procs, their use in gaining recharge IO bonuses, and for their potential in multiple AV encounters. All of those areas argue for these powers to actually be useful in many builds. These new uses were not available at the time of the original list and warrant a fresh look at the immobs.
'Evolution or extinction' is a proverb I'm found of and fits the bill here.
Please buff Ice Control.
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As I've argued, there's nothing wrong with the power other than its use requires sound tactics. If that's an issue, then you could probably double the size of the list as there are plenty of powers that will get you killed if you use them improperly or in an untimely fashion.
Last point I'll make. AoE immobs have gained in recognition for their ability to slot procs, their use in gaining recharge IO bonuses, and for their potential in multiple AV encounters. All of those areas argue for these powers to actually be useful in many builds. These new uses were not available at the time of the original list and warrant a fresh look at the immobs.
'Evolution or extinction' is a proverb I'm found of and fits the bill here.
[/ QUOTE ]I'd be willing to argue that the Immobilizes warrant attention because they're powers available at level 2 which do not serve a strong purpose until they are well-slotted. In that regard, they are unique, and not just to Dominators but to any class. They're very costly endurance-wise, they suffer from an accuracy penalty (as opposed to the accuracy bonus granted to the single target immobilize and single target hold a new player would have had experience with to that point), and only Roots does any damage to speak of absent of damage procs. The first two points are things which would be difficult to argue against given that they're also points relevant to Controllers*, but thanks to Containment that third point hits home rather soundly, and the fact that Roots (the only AoE immob that Controllers don't have) deals more damage and costs less End, it seems that the devs anticipated it.
Now, me, I'm prepared to argue that if the devs are unwilling to change the AoE Immobilizes directly, then at the very least our powersets should be re-ordered so that a player new to Doms would be less likely to take them early to disastrous results as we see so often now. The powers may be fine now; that's a matter of opinion as I see it. But the best I'd be willing to say about them is that they become useful later in the game, around the time a Dom can afford to start slotting their AoE Hold. (Say, late 20's, early 30's, depending on your priorities.) I can't think of any other level 2 power which that's the best thing you can say about it.
*: Actually, if you gave me enough time, I could probably mount a good argument concerning the Buff/Debuff nature of Controllers and, through that, their inherent ability to offset the Accuracy penalty in the AoE immobilizes. Most notably in the cases of Earth Control or Radiation Emission, both of which get sizable -Def at (you guessed it) level 2.
Alt-itis stole my soul!
The Annual Paragon City Gauntlet Marathon - Arc ID: 352887 (feedback appreciated)
Current Project: nothing specific, just general badge hunting right now.
a wayto boost them would be to get rid of the poor base acc they have.
controller only have to trigger a debuff to counter that. we can't.
tell that to controllers that can't debuff.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
i should have said debuff and buff
+def or heal IMO can deals with a AoE root that miss. and even after it can help to deal with the aggro.
[ QUOTE ]
tell that to controllers that can't debuff.
[/ QUOTE ]What, all two of 'em? Ok.
Dear Empathy Controllers,
I am sorry that you have to eat the full accuracy penalty on all of your AoE controls. I'm sure that makes your early life very difficult, given that all you have to contribute at those levels are these tools us poor saps the Dominators make do with plus the hands-down most-valued Buff set in the game. With two heals in the early levels where they're incredibly visible, it must be a harsh burden to bear, occasionally being the difference between a successful Sewer team and an unsuccessful one. I'm sorry that it's so easy for you to get teams in the early levels because low-level players put so much more emphasis on Heals than they do on anything else. It must make that decision between Fortitude and Stamina at level 20 just that much harder.
Sincerely,
- Kane
-fumbles around his desk for a minute. gets another sheet of paper and a better pen.-
Dear Force Field Controllers,
I'm sorry you picked Force Field as your secondary. No, seriously, I feel for you from the bottom of my heart. It must burn that the only three powers in your secondary which are demonstrably superior to the Mastermind versions are also simultaneously the weakest and most useless powers in your secondary. I know if that happened to me, I'd lose sleep over it almost every night. But, look on the bright side: if you chose Fire or Earth control as your primary, you have a second ranged AoE stun to stack on top of the one in your primary. In fact, as I understand it, you can actually make your version of it perma against even-cons go you! That may be only a small comfort if you happen to know that Storm Summoning has a PBAoE power which does the same thing without the requisite knockback, but it's best not to dwell on these things. And, hey, at least you can "stealth" missions with relative ease, thanks to that forced pick of Personal Force Field. And seriously I really do feel for you guys. Maybe your next Controller won't suck as much.
Sincerely,
- Kane
Alt-itis stole my soul!
The Annual Paragon City Gauntlet Marathon - Arc ID: 352887 (feedback appreciated)
Current Project: nothing specific, just general badge hunting right now.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What, all two of 'em? Ok.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dear Empathy Controllers,
I am sorry that you have to eat the full accuracy penalty on all of your AoE controls. I'm sure that makes your early life very difficult, given that all you have to contribute at those levels are these tools us poor saps the Dominators make do with plus the hands-down most-valued Buff set in the game. With two heals in the early levels where they're incredibly visible, it must be a harsh burden to bear, occasionally being the difference between a successful Sewer team and an unsuccessful one. I'm sorry that it's so easy for you to get teams in the early levels because low-level players put so much more emphasis on Heals than they do on anything else. It must make that decision between Fortitude and Stamina at level 20 just that much harder.
Sincerely,
- Kane
-fumbles around his desk for a minute. gets another sheet of paper and a better pen.-
Dear Force Field Controllers,
I'm sorry you picked Force Field as your secondary. No, seriously, I feel for you from the bottom of my heart. It must burn that the only three powers in your secondary which are demonstrably superior to the Mastermind versions are also simultaneously the weakest and most useless powers in your secondary. I know if that happened to me, I'd lose sleep over it almost every night. But, look on the bright side: if you chose Fire or Earth control as your primary, you have a second ranged AoE stun to stack on top of the one in your primary. In fact, as I understand it, you can actually make your version of it perma against even-cons go you! That may be only a small comfort if you happen to know that Storm Summoning has a PBAoE power which does the same thing without the requisite knockback, but it's best not to dwell on these things. And, hey, at least you can "stealth" missions with relative ease, thanks to that forced pick of Personal Force Field. And seriously I really do feel for you guys. Maybe your next Controller won't suck as much.
Sincerely,
- Kane
[/ QUOTE ]
my point
Why is this...
[ QUOTE ]
AoE immobilizes are problematic. Since they appear in most of the Dominator primaries, and usually before pool powers are available, the AoE immobilizes should be a staple of the control sets. However, they are a common cause of frustration for new Dominators, and typically skipped or rarely used by more experienced Dominators. The specific problems with these powers are:
- They generate a significant amount of aggro for the caster. In CoV, especially at low levels, there is very little effective aggro management, so the AoE immobilize is very likely to cause a large return attack.
- They make affected mobs less controllable. The granted Knock* protection, damage over time, and immobilization mean that many control effects will no longer affect them, namely knock*, fear, sleep, and "run away" effects.
- While they can be used to force enemies to use ranged attacks, the Dominator's low hit points mean those attacks are still very dangerous.
The reason this problem is more pronounced for Dominators than Controllers is that Controllers:
- can take advantage of immobilization to keep foes within area debuffs.
- can team with Tankers who can manage aggro.
- do extra damage against immobilized foes with Containment.
[/ QUOTE ]
...on the issue list?
There is no 'solution' as the power works as it's supposed to. It immobilizes large numbers of targets. That's not broken. And comparing it to controller usage is irrelevant as doms are not controllers.
It seems the complaint is AoE immobs should come with a warning label. Well that's what the forums are for:
"Don't take your aoe immobilize if you're new to the AT."
Now if the complaint is that the endurance cost is way too high for what you get out of it (now here's where comparing to trollers would be appropriate as immob leads to containment, which we don't get so why does it cost so much?), then I'd be all for that.
Please buff Ice Control.