ATI Issues and Settings Recommendations
By
ActionJakson,
Posted on: 2007-07-09 15:58 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
No other game I play has issues with ATI cards.
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
Houtex: I swear I haven't had this much trouble with the combination of ANY video card and ANY game since one of (a) the DOS (& maybe 95) + PCI-not-E-is-New era or (b) when I was trying to continue getting mileage out of a Voodoo3 card a year or two after the development company had disbanded (drivers? hello? where are yoo?).
"I think you're confused. This is /b, not /b/."
No other card has issues like ATI... I stand by my statement. When Bill gives up his ATI guru status... you know it's a bad deal.
August 31, 2012. A Day that will Live in Infamy. Or Information. Possibly Influence. Well, Inf, anyway. Thank you, Paragon Studios, for what you did, and the enjoyment and camaraderie you brought.
This is houtex, aka Mike, signing off the forums. G'night all. - 10/26/2012
Well... perhaps I was premature about that whole 'signing off' thing... - 11-9-2012
It looks like the magic trick is this:
<ul type="square">[*]Turn on AA and ANISO to your preferred settings in Catalyst, and set Catalyst NOT to let the programs decide. I'm using 4x AA and 8x ANISO personally, but it /probably/ dosn't matter which numbers exactly you pick.
[*]Turn on (FS)AA and ANISO to the SAME seeting in game.[/list]
It appears that if both settings match their counterparts in the other software, the game will boot up and continue without glitchy graphics.
If you DO see glitchy halos, tweak your FSAA control in options (the console command did nothing for me) and set it back to the same as Catalyst. In testing before I found out I also had to match ANISO, doing just FSAA post-launch would cause correct graphics that persisted tabbing, zoning, and character changes, but not restarting the client.
"I think you're confused. This is /b, not /b/."
Actually, more testing reveals this isn't always true. I set stuff up in the game to match, relogged, and came back to glowy red sprint. BUT, turning off FSAA fixed it. So somehow FSAA is acting as a toggle for this in-game.
Interestingly, whether or not I show the benefits of AA seems to also vary, but I haven't narrowed down the pattern yet other than it SEEMS to work more often when I've got Catalyst handling it and FSAA off in the game... but not necessarily working that way all the time.
I also should note that regardless of settings in Catalyst, I no longer have even the option of turning on DoF or Bloom. I don't care, but it's interesting that I had them on the old card but not this one.
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
Tina,
As per the original post, Bloom, Depth of Field and High Water FX all break FSAA.
To add to that, with Issue 11, they added Desaturation Effects, which also break FSAA exactly as the others.
Set Water FX to Low. Disable the other three. (Easy since you can't enable bloom and DoF.)
FSAA and AF should be off in game and on in the CCC.
With this setup, does FSAA function and are you still getting the same funky colors?
Be well, people of CoH.
That's where we started, Bill. Water FX off, actually, not even on Low; FSAA and AF off in the game and handled in CCC. All the way back before changing from 7.11 to 7.10, in fact, and then when we first had 7.10 loaded. I've had water FX off for ages because of the funky things it does on ATI cards even on Low.
The FSAA thing seeming to toggle things was discovered by sheer coincidence of "Well, no one's tried pressing this button yet" and discovering that it toggled off the odd colours. After trying playing with all the other settings in some way, basically.
With the settings as you recommend, IOW (except for water being OFF), is where we first noticed the problem. We've probably tried nearly every possible combination of FSAA, AF, Water, Shader, Particle amount, etc. that there is. And, seriously, changing FSAA in the game has been consistently what turns the funky coloured trails off.
Edit: But, in the spirit of figuring I might as well try everything, I turned Water from Off to Low. It just changed the colour of my funky trails.
Incidentally, turning Catalyst AI on (as the only other thing I hadn't tried) limits me to Low w/bumpmaps shader. Turning it off brings the rest of the options back.
I'm really about || from cancelling my subscription. Again. I'm going to go read now.
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
Ooookay, now it looks like the solution is this:
<ul type="square">[*]Set CCC to whatever. (I currently have aa and aniso set to 'use app' and adaptive-aa ON, just for the heck of it.)
[*]Start game. On load, the colors will almost certainly (for us) be hosed.
[*]Open options panel. Click the FSAA option repeatedly until, on one of the graphics stutters caused by changing the setting, it suddenly decides to fix the problem, which then seems to stay fixed for the session.[/list]
It never looks like AA is enabled at all when the problem is occuring.
When I have AA enabled in CCC, it looks like the reason turning it on in the game fixes the problem has to do with the fact that it also goes from looking less to more jaggie at the same time.
Also, when I have AA enabled in CCC, I have not ever been able to set the in-game FSAA to "off" without problems, and every time I tried my crisp lines AND the color problem came back simultaniously.
OTOH, I think Tina was able to do it that way once. So maybe if I turn CCC AA on and do Settings Roulette until things look right with the FSAA OFF it will work right.
The real problem is that no particular setting will reproduce it. Changing settings can turn the problem on or off but then you restart the game or sometimes just stand around and suddenly the problem is back and the same settings don't work anymore. Sometimes you cycle through the settings and land back on the same one and the problem has come or gone.
Bill, by the way, I just went back and did every exact setting you specify in your guide down to the bolt including such subtleties as refresh rates and still had the problem. *shrug*
Also, I get that bloom and stuff does not work with ATI AA, but the game effectively just saying "You have an ATI card, no bloom for you" regardless of AA settings or anything seems a bit screwed up.
-- end of actual post, minirant follows --
And to anyone who wants to flame people using ATI cards, please actually read and comprehend this sentence: We have never had this kind of problem with ATI plus any other game ever. MAYBE the occasional problems on the level of "don't use setting X or you'll have issue Y". NOT problems on the level of "it's completely.... and we have NO idea how to fix or workaround it and we can't even figure out WTF is causing it."
(Also, anyone who thinks nvidia doesn't have problems needs to go do some research on other games.)
"I think you're confused. This is /b, not /b/."
[ QUOTE ]
We have never had this kind of problem with ATI plus any other game ever.
[/ QUOTE ]
And, in fact, I just loaded World of Warcraft, which is full of glow and Bloom and more people than I tend to see at once in CoX, and not only does it work with ALL settings maxxed, but my framerate is 1.5-2x what it is in CoX.
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
Possibly I just can't get it to work right with FSAA=off in the game. Regardless of any other settings, even if in theory there is no AA anywhere. Sometimes when I turn game FSAA the colors stay screwed up, sometimes they don't.
I don't know if that means that it's a problem in the card/driver's AA routines or if it's a problem with the game's not-using-AA-mode.
At this point I'm thinking it has to be one of them.
I wouldn't mind playing with no AA, but then it'd be nice if I could at least turn on those hdr-type options to make up for it :\.
Since I'm insane, I'm actually going to try the 7-12 drivers. *looks for KB prot*
"I think you're confused. This is /b, not /b/."
Tina and Weaver,
Neither of you have mentioned what Desaturation Effects is set for in game.
Did you both disable it?
Matter of fact, let's start over.
Here's what I need to see:
OS + Version
Current driver installed
ALL settings both in game and in CCC.
I find it weird that you are both experiencing a problem that I've never seen before and would like to see if I can reproduce it.
Course, if you're both running Vista, then it's a moot point and I'd be left blaming it on Vista and/or AMD's Vista drivers.
EDIT: Wait... just reread the last few pages... are the two of you on the same system with the 3870?
Be well, people of CoH.
Windows XP Pro SP2
AMD Phenom x4 Quad-Core, GP-9600, 2.31ghz
2G RAM
ATI Radeon HD 3870
Drivers... we started with the 7.11s and had the problem then, too. At that poitn my settings were precisely what you have in the first post, except for extra particle count.
Current driver is reporting as 8.430.0.0, that came off the MSI disk that came with our cards. Date on the drivers was October. Those were loaded when the 7.10s failed to install.
Star's trying 7.12 now, he can update you on that.
I have changed my settings so many times, I don't even know where to start, but here's what I have right now:
CCC settings:
AA: 4x, filter: box
Adaptive AA: off
Anisotropic: 4x
Catalyst AI: disabled
MipMap: High Quality
Vertical Refresh: On, unless application specifies. Yes, I had it to Always On for a while, but I turned it down when I went to test Warcraft.
Support DXT texture formats
Triple buffering.
In-game settings:
Suppress Extra Player FX: well, I set it to on, but the game always disables it later
Suppress FX When Close: On
Particle Physics: High. I've tried all the other settings, too.
World Texture: Very High
Character Texture: Very High
World Detail: 100%
Character Detail: 151%
Particle Count: 50000. It's also been 25000, 10000, 100, and other points in between.
VSync: Enabled, but it's also been Disabled
FSAA: Off, but you've seen our notes on this
Shadows: On, and yes, I tried off
Use Geometry Buffers: Enabled, and yes I tried disabled
Anisotropic Filtering: Off, and we've fiddled with this, too
Texture Crispness: Smooth, and if you're wondering, yes, I tried fiddling with this, too
Shader Quality: High, and I've had it on other settings, too
Water Effects: None, and it's also been Low
DoF, Bloom, and Desat: all greyed out, can't change anyhow
And, if I sound cranky, it's not at you; I appreciate you're trying to help us figure this out. I'm cranky because this really is the only game I've ever had this kind of problem with and we tried for 4 or 5 hours with various combinations of settings to fix it and nothing has worked reliably except the stupid FSAA switch, which then proceeds to break FSAA.
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
[ QUOTE ]
DoF, Bloom, and Desat: all greyed out, can't change anyhow
[/ QUOTE ]
Really bugs me that those are greyed out.
Is Star doing the full steps before installing the 7.12s?
Uninstall from add/remove
Reboot
Cancel XP's autoinstall twice
Disable Anitvirus program
Run Driver Sweeper to finish cleaning out old driver garbage
Install new drivers
Reboot and let settle
Does anyone have a 3870 that isn't having this problem?
Had anyone at NCSoft tested with this card?
Further edit:
Ya know... the 8800 has the black texture issues. Then you've got the other posts about stripes with the latest drivers.
Maybe this is yet another issue that is due to the game being so old and unable to work properly with new hardware/drivers.
Be well, people of CoH.
7-12s have same problems.
Did everything you said except driver sweeper, which I was considering trying now since my last ATI uninstaller crashed ...
Found something else: if you set Cat. AI on, either setting, everything works . . . except you can't set your shader above low-with-world (console commands for high are also ignored) and your shins disappear in water. (Been testing this in steel around thet COT mound since there's lots of COT fires to screw up there also.)
If you have cat ai on the game says something about using old drivers in big text on the login screen. Maybe it's using a compatability mode in this case. Which would also point towards the game's current something or other being messed up.
"I think you're confused. This is /b, not /b/."
That is some freaky [censored].
Sorry, yall. I'm out of ideas.
Be well, people of CoH.
o_o
Isn't BillZ being out of ideas for fixing an ATI card like, one of the signs of the apocalypse or something?
*hides*
"I think you're confused. This is /b, not /b/."
When I'm feeling less frustrated, I'm going to try to consolidate all the testing we did into a clear report (all that QA background has to be good for something, right?) and send it off to both NCSoft and ATI support. Maybe someone will come up with a fix someday.
In the meantime, I think it's time for a drink. Er, dinner! I mean, dinner!
Thanks, Bill, for the input, even if the result was "wtf"...
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
The problem is with City of Heroes using non-standard OpenGL Extensions and using a renderpath designed around nVidia hardware. Not surprisingly, the only games that seem to have problems with ATI hardware are those that have the "I'm an nVidia shill" logo slapped on the box.
If you don't believe me, I'd be more than happy to post the output from the OpenGL wrapper I've been running the game through.
Every new game I purchased in 2007 had the Nvidia logo on it.
That should tell us all something.
Gah, nevermind. I'm not going into this again. I failed for three years trying to get NCSoft/Cryptic to do SOMETHING about their very pretty but incredibly incompatible and flakey graphics engine.
Someone else can run that road.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
Every new game I purchased in 2007 had the Nvidia logo on it.
That should tell us all something.
Gah, nevermind. I'm not going into this again. I failed for three years trying to get NCSoft/Cryptic to do SOMETHING about their very pretty but incredibly incompatible and flakey graphics engine.
Someone else can run that road.
[/ QUOTE ]
HOW IN THE HELL CAN YOU SAY YOU "FAILED"!!!???
You continued to support ATI cards on these forums for a heckuva long time!!! THEY "failed", by letting a USER, a PLAYER, support there game!!! We ALL support different parts of this game and often, MORE than often, prevail when NCSoft suupport "failed".
Funky-A man! You "failed"?? My [censored].
Sorry. 
Ironically, I might end up dropping this for another NCSoft game, depending on how things go. Maybe now that the game is fully under NCSoft's umbrella they can fix things, I don't know. But what I want to do is just play a game. I'm too old to champion a cause.
Like I said, I'll give the info to the devs and ATI and see if they can come up with a fix. What I'm less sure about is if I want to play with artificially degraded settings. I have to think about that.
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
OK OK!!! I failed at persuading NCSoft/Cryptic to change their code while succeeding at giving folks workarounds so they could play anyway.
Thanks for the reminder, Mid. 
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
<-- does not understand the masochism and self abuse of ATI users...
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, unless you are willing to purchase a new MB, CPU, RAM, and video card for me, I am pretty much stuck with ATI for the forseeable future, since Nvidia gave up on AGP.
[ QUOTE ]
And to anyone who wants to flame people using ATI cards, please actually read and comprehend this sentence: We have never had this kind of problem with ATI plus any other game ever. MAYBE the occasional problems on the level of "don't use setting X or you'll have issue Y". NOT problems on the level of "it's completely and we have NO idea how to fix or workaround it and we can't even figure out WTF is causing it."
(Also, anyone who thinks nvidia doesn't have problems needs to go do some research on other games.)
[/ QUOTE ]
StarWeaver, I have to be honest here, and say that the last couple of driver revisions have broke other games for me. This is because they completely bork Direct3D 7, 8, and 9 for my card with the revisions. EVEOnline will not even try to get past the first screen and LOTRO lets me sign in then crashes saying I don't have DirectX installed. ATI knows this problem exists for my card, but it is not listed on the known issues and they haven't managed to fix it.
I know Nvidia has problems with some games, but if they hadn't thrown out part of their market by dropping AGP support, I would have one of their cards right now.
Bill, I know you have said that the Desaturation effect breaks things, but I have had no problems with it at all using your settings. Wouldn't want things to be consistent would you? 
Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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<-- does not understand the masochism and self abuse of ATI users...
August 31, 2012. A Day that will Live in Infamy. Or Information. Possibly Influence. Well, Inf, anyway. Thank you, Paragon Studios, for what you did, and the enjoyment and camaraderie you brought.
This is houtex, aka Mike, signing off the forums. G'night all. - 10/26/2012
Well... perhaps I was premature about that whole 'signing off' thing... - 11-9-2012