Great guide on the use of Vengeance, extremely important. How many matches have we seen recently where Vengeance has turned a match around for a team?
When you look at the Current Evolution of PVP you see how things have changed, its really remarkable and a testament to the PVP community as a whole.
Just look back say a year ago..the Three best teams were Penance, Freaks and HVND, none of them used Vengence and all 3 really used different strategies to get to the top..Penance used an almost pure Run-n-gun style team, Freaks beat that team with a Tank disruption team and HVND beat 1 with a turtle and the other with a run and gun..so they kind of used both.
Then as PVP progressed Lions Den rose up with the Obi-Wan Kenobi Lineup ( if you strike us down..we become more powerfull then you can ever imagine) the HVND and Freaks became almost Pure Run and Gun.
And now as PVP groups shrink down to where they can only manage 8 v 8 for whatever reasons you see the Storm teams like ABH and HVND used recently.
I would also like to point out that ABH who practiced with us alot right before we left started getting really smart and knowing that as soon as they killed one of us the rest would be coming would wait at the body and try to get a nuke off on us before we could Vengence.
We had to start playing against the Anti-Vengence and our Rads started using Fallout to counter that.
I think down the road you will see Bubblers come back because they can disrupt a vengence from going off just by standing near the dead body.
Anyway good stuff and although we are gone its good to see how we have influenced the future of PVP in this game.
Actually, I don't believe Vengeances overwrite each other. Once Vengeance activates it checks to see if the target is already "flagged" as having Vengeance active. If they don't, it applies the buffs and then sets the "flag." If they do, then it does nothing. This is why it can be stacked. There is a small delay between checking for the flag and setting the flag.
That's how I understand it to work in theory anyway. It's worth testing.
They "fixed" Vengeance a while ago... however, as with many "fixes" in this game... 
Just wanted to say Thank you for the guides and info!
Imo, this shouldn't be a bug, its part of the game that requires well timed preparation.
Eh....not like they're gonna spend the 5 minutes to fix it anyway. There are a lot of badges to be added to the game!
More people in China speak English than in the United States.
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More people in China speak English than in the United States.
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They "fixed" Vengeance a while ago... however, as with many "fixes" in this game...
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If that was in response to my post, then I don't think you understood what I was saying.
To clarify, my point is that if you use Vengeance and then 90 seconds later someone else uses Vengeance, theirs will not take the place of yours. So 30 seconds later your Vengeance will expire and you will be left Vengeanceless.
I stacked 6 vengeances on brutals mom.... powerboosted...
[u]Sings Guide to Vengeance in PvP:[u]
[u]Forward:[u]
This guide essentially refers to the effective usage of the Leadership pool power Vengeance in Player vs Player combat.
Well here's the rundown for anyone new or anyone who never knew.
Vengeance [u]ROCKS[u]. It generally winds up being the epitome of a tide-turner, and below it will be described just as to why. The intent of this guide is to not only encourage the use of more powers in PvP, but to draw attention to a long-existing BUG involving stacking Vengeance. I would expect some change(s) down the line for this power, but as is and as it has been from I4 to now, people have virtually always underestimated its potential. Even if it is changed, make note of the following as to how potent it once was, and even slashing the numbers itd still be a hefty buff.
[u]Vengeance:[u]
Vengeance is described as 'Ranged (Targeted AoE), Teammates +DMG, +ACC, +DEF(All), Res(Effects)'. Now, the majority of those boosts are pretty obvious, but delving into '(Effects)', what are we talking about? We're talking about... Confuse, Taunt, Placate Fear, Stun, Sleep, Immobilize, Hold and Repel. Now, resistance clocks in at a handy dandy 55% +res for a blaster, this number INCREASES for controllers and defenders. This means that all of those effects there will last virtually [u]half as long[u], and as many of us have experienced, [u]Repel is nullified[u].
So, that's pretty good, but hey, you might as well have popped some violets and called it a day, right? Well looking at +dmg, for a blaster again, you get +44% dmg, that's more than a defender emp's FORTITUDE is giving you. Sadly, this number can't be Power Boosted or increased in any way, but 44% more dmg adds up very quickly indeed.
Taking a gander at +Acc and +Def, both numbers are fairly large as well. Tohit being a greater value than defense though. For a blaster again, slotted up you get +35% defense and +52% tohit. Yikes. And remember, tohit functions as BETTER than simple Accuracy, so that alone is letting you punch through PBUed bubbles, let alone PBU Forts! But wait, speaking of PBU, it's coolio cousin Power Boost has something to say.
What's that? Power Boost says it can further enhance these numbers? Mmm, sounds like a 53% defense buff and a 78% tohit buff for any of our blasters.
But wait, the defenders want some action too! Our dear rad/psys and honourable emps, and even precious kins and sonics or storms, they can use Veng too, and to even bigger effect!
Slotted for defense on the defender side, the power will give 47% +def to all too, queing PBU before activating = another 77% +def! AND if you slot for to hit or use membranes/cytos, you get 77% to hit too! And even if it doesn't hit a single [u]other[u] teammate, you're an emp on cloud nine, because you've got something better than slotted up Elude on you, and all that juicy mez resistance even if you're out of BFs or have a Force Bubbler tailing you!
Oh, hey wait, there's something else not mentioned in the short help. A [u]HEAL[u]. That's right folks, for the cheap price of a dead teammate, you not only get massive +dmg, +tohit, +defense AND mez resistance and repel immunity, you get a radial HEAL. This isn't worth enhancing IMO, but you'll ballpark around 90-125 hp healed. This can *also* be Power Boosted; making for some easy teammate saves if they're nearby, and then who's going to HIT them after?
[u]Fact:[u] Vengeance lasts 120 seconds, has a radial buff effect of about 60 feet, and has an *unenhanceable* recharge of 300 seconds.
Oh, Sing, wait, why did you bother with this? You KNOW the devs got all mean and said no stacking Vengeance! Well, there's a nifty way of bypassing this! You simply activate the power within 1.5ish seconds of another Vengeance user! This leads to TWO Heals going off at once which is easily noticable, as well as BOTH of the casters' Vengeances stacking.
Now, many many many of us have experienced the fun to be had of a slotted up Vengeance. Plenty of us have received PBU or PBed Vengeances too! A good number have experienced double stacked Vengeance as well! But here's something very few of you, if any of you will have *ever* experienced, and here's something brand new for you to consider. You can just as easily stack 2 Vengeances as you can [u]three[u]. You can just as easily stack 3 Vengeances as you can [u]four[u].
Granted, it's hard enough as is, but a single Veng is near dependent on the dead teammate STAYING dead, and if many of us have had the opportunity to hit PB or PBU before using it, or to countdown, or to double up on Veng, why can't we achieve triple what may be the norm?
Why can't we be running around with a [u]minimum[u]of 105% +def, 156 +tohit, 132% +dmg, 165% +res to effects and a total 270 point heal? That's assuming NO one hits Power Boost, and that all the Vengeances are coming from blasters; if anyone did hit PB or were a defender (with PBU), then the buffs would be even more incredible. Those numbers are from my testing of triple stacked Vengeance in I7.
F.Y.I.: This is a [u]BUG[u]. It is not the intended use for this power, and the fact that Vengeance was deliberately nerfed and patch notes explained as such justify that easily. In my I8 testing I was unable to determine whether or not these stacked Vengeances still overlap +defense and +tohit and +dmg or not, but Id wager that they still do, as they did in I7 and previously. Vengeance is not meant to stack - period.
I seriously hope that the developers do change something about the ability of this power to stack. Using it as is isnt an exploit per say, as Sonic Cage and Detention Field are also bugged and the PvP community at large have used them since theyve been around. Still, do not be shy of petitioning and/or e-mailing someone involved in game development about this problem.
It's just a matter of timing and getting things right. So, Vengeance does indeed rock, if your teammates are falling down, and you get in the right Veng, or hit enough people and stave off further deaths long enough, it can be a match saver. If your amped dmg and tohit is enough to plow through opponents better than before, then it can be a match saver. If anyone is out of insps and Veng helps them in any way... it can be a match saver.
For this kind of buff, it can even be considerable to have someone die, to cement a win for sure (though that's still unadvisable, if someone is going to die, let the other side waste their firepower and buffs DOING that). Also recall that Vengeance and the WHOLE Leadership line only affect [u]teammates[u]! That doesn't mean 'allies', that means ONLY people [u]on your team[u].
Optimal slotting IMO is really just 3 cytos or 3 membs. The +recharge component of membranes doesn't affect anything that can't normally be slotted for recharge, what you want from these Hos is the boost to both defense *and* tohit, though you REALLY want the defense boost if anything. 3 Heals aren't necessary in my mind, since someone dying usually means the other teammates don't *need* a heal if all the dmg was focussed on one individual. That's 3 slots that could be better used elsewhere, but they are still fine.
[u]Fact:[u] Vengeance activates in under 1.5 seconds, but over 1 second. Still a very quick animation.
You never *waste* a Veng, unless it can be better used later on, in which case you're still probably not wasting it. Just 1 person having that big buff makes a real difference, and as you know, larger buffs overcome 'lesser' ones, so if you Fort someone normally, then use PBU+Fort, the PBUed Fort takes precedence. If a blaster hits Veng, and a Defender hits their Veng a few seconds too late, so they don't STACK, they just 'overlap', then the Defender's Veng should just overwrite the other one, providing a bigger buff for all.
PBUing and PBing would have the same impact. It basically always pays off to use Veng, but we don't want to fire it willy nilly, best to try hitting 2+ people, and of course, stacking it.
The thing is that stacked Leadership IS huge, the only thing is that, while Assault is small enough and dmg caps large enough for things not to matter, Maneuvers is near meaningless as is, and Tactics is only so needed when teammates have Fortitude, Aim, RI, CM etc. and you may be hitting fine with acc SOs/HOs. All the leadership *toggles* also only have a certain range, outdoors the stacking feature won't come into play much.
You also HAVE to give up three powers to get Vengeance, that could be 3 more attacks, buffs, debuffs, evasion skills, you name it, it could've been that. A lot of builds are tight as is, as worthwhile a power as this is. The inverse to the above with separate smaller teams is also true, if you have a team of 8, 4 people on the team shouldn't need Vengeance.
So, in closing, never forget Sing's friendly saying:
If you die, stay dead for Vengeance please.