It's likely that some builds will benefit more from full IO sets than others. It also seems likely that the level of a character will be a big factor in which IOs you want where, and depending on the availablilty of specific IOs versus specific HOs.
In most cases, you will want to slot just enough IOs to get a desired effect. Nothing wrong with that.
It's likely that after I9, it will be even more true that there is no "best" build/slotting combo for a character. Personal Preference Uber Alles.
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Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
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Shadow Fall: Can take Resistance and Defense sets.
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Yes, of course, you can slot it's nearly nonexistant defense. You can slot MANY things for IO set bonuses as long as you're willing to gimp the actual power itself.
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Or, y'know, you could slot it for +7.5% Recharge, +7.5% ToHit, and Knockback/up protection (all 3 of these enhancements are found in Defense Sets). But I suppose that would be gimping the actual power itself, eh?
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Shadow Fall: Can take Resistance and Defense sets.
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Yes, of course, you can slot it's nearly nonexistant defense. You can slot MANY things for IO set bonuses as long as you're willing to gimp the actual power itself.
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Or, y'know, you could slot it for +7.5% Recharge, +7.5% ToHit, and Knockback/up protection (all 3 of these enhancements are found in Defense Sets). But I suppose that would be gimping the actual power itself, eh?
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Since you would have to give up slotting it either for resistance (reducing the power's ability to fulfil one of its primary functions) or endurance reduction (reducing your ability to do anything else while the power is active) to get those benefits... then yes, pretty much.
I mean, you can slot Fortitude with all that stuff as well, but I think your teammates might be expecting you to use it for its intended purpose rather than a vehicle for IO bonuses for yourself.
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Shadow Fall: Can take Resistance and Defense sets.
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Yes, of course, you can slot it's nearly nonexistant defense. You can slot MANY things for IO set bonuses as long as you're willing to gimp the actual power itself.
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Or, y'know, you could slot it for +7.5% Recharge, +7.5% ToHit, and Knockback/up protection (all 3 of these enhancements are found in Defense Sets). But I suppose that would be gimping the actual power itself, eh?
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Since you would have to give up slotting it either for resistance (reducing the power's ability to fulfil one of its primary functions) or endurance reduction (reducing your ability to do anything else while the power is active) to get those benefits... then yes, pretty much.
I mean, you can slot Fortitude with all that stuff as well, but I think your teammates might be expecting you to use it for its intended purpose rather than a vehicle for IO bonuses for yourself.
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I hear there are these wonderful enhancements that give SO level bonuses to two things. HOs or SHOEs or some silly thing. One of them is resist/endurance, leaving you three extra slots of wiggle room for IOs.
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FYI, I was talking about the *IOs* that give either a +regen or +recovery boost. Which would be good if you're not planning to 3-slot HT for use as a regen debuff.
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Well you kind of confused me. Looking at the sets we know of so far, the only sets that include +regen or +recovery IOs are heal sets. I didn't know this included Howling Twilight.
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Yes, of course, you can slot it's nearly nonexistant defense. You can slot MANY things for IO set bonuses as long as you're willing to gimp the actual power itself.
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Since you would have to give up slotting it either for resistance (reducing the power's ability to fulfil one of its primary functions) or endurance reduction (reducing your ability to do anything else while the power is active) to get those benefits... then yes, pretty much.
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I run Shadow Fall with Maneuvers. Slot them both with SO Defense Enhancements gets you over 12% Defense. Hardly non-existent. And since Defense applies to All attack types, not just the three you get Resistance from, I consider a better use of the slots available. This applies to Sets that have "special" Enhancements as well. The Resistance benefits only help in certain circumstances, defense ALWAYS help, as do the effects of the special enhancements.
Oh, and a full set of Defense IOs lowers Endurance cost more than a single Endurance SO (which is all I need in Shadow Fall and Maneuvers to run them at the same time). This includes those sets with the "Special" Enhancements.
This is also why I mentioned taking Tactics, I already had a prerequisite.
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I mean, you can slot Fortitude with all that stuff as well, but I think your teammates might be expecting you to use it for its intended purpose rather than a vehicle for IO bonuses for yourself.
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It's "intended purpose" is to buff your teammates. Putting a full Defensive IO set in this power would:
1) Increase the Defense Buff youe teammates recieve.
2) Give them an additional buff if you used one of the "Special" Enhancements.
Why should your teammates care if you slot it in such a way so that they benefit and YOU benefit from it as well?
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I mean, you can slot Fortitude with all that stuff as well, but I think your teammates might be expecting you to use it for its intended purpose rather than a vehicle for IO bonuses for yourself.
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It's "intended purpose" is to buff your teammates. Putting a full Defensive IO set in this power would:
1) Increase the Defense Buff youe teammates recieve.
2) Give them an additional buff if you used one of the "Special" Enhancements.
Why should your teammates care if you slot it in such a way so that they benefit and YOU benefit from it as well?
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1) Iakona provided a list of cherry-picked IOs from different defense sets, my point was that you couldn't put all of those in Fortitude without taking away from either the defense it provides or the number of teammates you can keep it cast on.
2) As far as we know at this point, IOs that provide a bonus buff to the player (ie, +7.5% recharge), do not affect the power itself; they're just kind of "there". So slotting Fortitude for a recharge boost would only apply to you, not to the teammates you cast it on.
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I hear there are these wonderful enhancements that give SO level bonuses to two things. HOs or SHOEs or some silly thing. One of them is resist/endurance, leaving you three extra slots of wiggle room for IOs.
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Thanks, but I prefer to focus on realistic slotting situations, rather than planning to get three super-valuable, super-rare HOs so that I have room to slot three super-vauable, (probably) super-rare IOs.
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I hear there are these wonderful enhancements that give SO level bonuses to two things. HOs or SHOEs or some silly thing. One of them is resist/endurance, leaving you three extra slots of wiggle room for IOs.
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Thanks, but I prefer to focus on realistic slotting situations, rather than planning to get three super-valuable, super-rare HOs so that I have room to slot three super-vauable, (probably) super-rare IOs.
[/ QUOTE ]SHOs and Hamis are definitely annoying little things to get, especially when one particular type always seems to be the only one you get. I am hoping that IOs are not all that difficult to gather. After looking at the ones on PAragon Wiki, I can foresee some really skewed PvP scenarios with some of the FotM builds getting their hands on soem of those 6 slotters otherwise. After looking at some of the IOs on Paragon Wiki, the only SHOs I will be interested in are the time/acc buff ones for rage, honestly.
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2) As far as we know at this point, IOs that provide a bonus buff to the player (ie, +7.5% recharge), do not affect the power itself; they're just kind of "there". So slotting Fortitude for a recharge boost would only apply to you, not to the teammates you cast it on.
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But that would still benefit the team.. Being able to bring fortitude back faster allows it to be cast again sooner. It may not extend the actual power on the buffed teammate, but you can hit them again faster with a recharge... or am I getting that wrong?
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But that would still benefit the team.. Being able to bring fortitude back faster allows it to be cast again sooner. It may not extend the actual power on the buffed teammate, but you can hit them again faster with a recharge... or am I getting that wrong?
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Well, yes, technically *any* self buff is a team buff, because the whole team benefits from your increased performance. And, by the same token, ally-only buffs are also self buffs, so long as you have teammates to use them on. However, that's entirely separate from the notion that by slotting a mini-hasten IO in Fortitude you can use the power to buff your *teammate's* recharge rates, which is what some people theorize you can do.
However, since people take issue with the example of Fortitude, let's look at Hover. This is a power that many people take and three-slot to gain unrstricted flight in combat. Instead, those three slots could be used to make hover into a power that grants stealth, +recharge and +tohit--aspects that are undeinably awesome both on their own and together. However, if you put those IOs Hover, you no longer have a power that grants unrestricted flight in combat. You have to either forfeit that aspect of Hover or remove slots from some other power, making it less effective in turn.
That's what gets overlooked when peole get all shook up over some of the bonuses you can get from IOs: there is an opportunity cost associated with them. And in the case of slotting Empathy will full IO sets (yes, the thread's gotten so far off topic that it's back on topic again), that opportunity cost is much lower than it is for many other Defender primaries, even though those other sets may offer a greater number of properties to be enhanced.
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But that would still benefit the team.. Being able to bring fortitude back faster allows it to be cast again sooner. It may not extend the actual power on the buffed teammate, but you can hit them again faster with a recharge... or am I getting that wrong?
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Well, yes, technically *any* self buff is a team buff, because the whole team benefits from your increased performance. And, by the same token, ally-only buffs are also self buffs, so long as you have teammates to use them on. However, that's entirely separate from the notion that by slotting a mini-hasten IO in Fortitude you can use the power to buff your *teammate's* recharge rates, which is what some people theorize you can do.
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I think that's a good thing- I like the fact that a power can work differently and still be of benefit. If people don't take time to adapt to their specific group dynamics, they're failing at one important part of team play.
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However, since people take issue with the example of Fortitude, let's look at Hover. This is a power that many people take and three-slot to gain unrstricted flight in combat. Instead, those three slots could be used to make hover into a power that grants stealth, +recharge and +tohit--aspects that are undeinably awesome both on their own and together. However, if you put those IOs Hover, you no longer have a power that grants unrestricted flight in combat. You have to either forfeit that aspect of Hover or remove slots from some other power, making it less effective in turn.
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Many people aslo DON'T slot this way, but already slot for +defense and use it as a less mobile defensive edge... or tied it to a macro that auto-toggled between flight and hover so you could get around. Hover's now faster- fast enough for most indoor battle areas, so it can be argued that the 3-slotting speed at all is a waste.
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That's what gets overlooked when peole get all shook up over some of the bonuses you can get from IOs: there is an opportunity cost associated with them. And in the case of slotting Empathy will full IO sets (yes, the thread's gotten so far off topic that it's back on topic again), that opportunity cost is much lower than it is for many other Defender primaries, even though those other sets may offer a greater number of properties to be enhanced.
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Don't know if it's intended, but it comes across like you're pretty confident in what is the already-optimal slotting and purpose for the powersets- what people should slot and what you should expect from a slotter. IO's are specifically intended to shake those notions up.
Very few people are blind to the downsides (but they are there, and you may have intended the post to speak to them). Slotting defenses in hover, like you suggested, makes hover act differently, not worse or better, and it could let me cater to a style of play that before wasn't very well supported.
Yes, that means that you might not get what you intended from a teammate. A power might be less powerful or be available less often. Players will have to learn to deal with it and play to the strengths of that team. Maybe the defender's hover isn't as fast now, but his accuracy and defensive abilities now mean that he's more survivable in other ways.
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Empathy is basically limited (based on current info) to Heal sets and one power to slot a Defense set in, if you want to 6 slot Fortitude. (My post was about putting a full set of 6 in a power).
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Your original thesis was that Empathy didn't have many powers that could be effectively six-slotted with IOs, so I listed two-thirds of the set which can. Now you've moved the goalposts to "Empathy can't slot different types of IO sets".
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And Three have many choices when it comes to powers to put a set of 6 in. (Dark Miasma, Storm Summoning and Trick Arrow). Characters with these Powersets will have a much easier time when it comes to putting a set of 6 IO's in a power. Many already have powers 6-slotted, and there is a set that fairly closely matches how they have used those slots.
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Yeahbutwha? Dark Miasma:
Twilight Grasp - Needs two accuracy, can only slot up to 4 of a healing set.
Darkest Night - Nothing
Tar Patch - Nothing
Shadowfall - 6 slot resistance IOs
Howling Twilight - Can slot with +Regen/+Recovery IOs, not usually six-slotted. And if we count Howling Twilight, we have to count Ressurect--seven powers for Empathy.
Fearsome Stare - Does no damage, cannot fully benefit from a six IO set. EDIT: Not that I do this, but many people slot Fersome Stare as a tohit debuff power rather than a control, but this usage of the power is not supported by IOs.
Petrifying Gaze - Needs significant recharge slotting to be useful, which IO sets do not provide; does no damage and cannot fully benefit from a six IO set.
Black Hole - Nothing
Dark Servant - Controls, Heals and Debuffs, none of which can be enhanced by IOs (pet sets only); cannot be slotted for damage but all of the pet IO sets are designed to enhance pet damage.
In short, there is *no* power in Dark Miasma that will not be made worse by slotting it with a six-piece IO set. Fearsome Stare can work if you mix two sets together to avoid the useless damage enhancements.
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Tar Patch: Takes Slow Enhancements, Putting a set of 6 in wouldn't be optimal slotting, but you should be able to put 6 in.
(There has been debate on how powers that actually summon "pets" would work)
Twilight Grasp: Can put 6 in, no accuracy enhancements, but this can be offset using Tactics and accuracy set bonuses from other IO sets.
Darkest Night: No DeBuff Sets
Howling Twilight: +Regen/+Recovery? Now you're showing you don't know how this power works. It can't be slotted for either. It can be slotted for Stun or Disorient (both have IO Sets). It benefits from Endurance Reduction and Recharge Enhancements, and will actually benefit a little from damage enhancements. It may also be possible to slot Howling Twilight with Ranged AoE sets. Lots of possabilities with this power. And it can be used in combat as a DeBuff without a dead ally . I may indeed 6-slot it on my Dark/Dark Defender once inventions go live.
Shadow Fall: Can take Resistance and Defense sets.
Fearsome Stare: Fear, of course. Yes it deals no damage, but only one fear power does at this point. Can still put 6 in, and all you are doing is wasting the damage component (unless of course you pick a set that allows the power to do damage occassionally)
Petrifying Gaze: Similar to above. The Recharge time is 16 seconds. Not THAT long.
Black Hole: Who Cares?
Dark Hole: Will take some sets (the damage component would be wasted).
That Means Dark Miasma can use Slow, Stun, Fear, Hold, Pet, Defense/Resistace sets (some enhancements will have components that don't effect the power in some cases). You can also 6 slot Twilight grasp with a heal set, and get around the accuracy problem by running Tactics and (Guess what) putting the right Slow/ Defense Sets in the appropriate powers. Putting a set of 6 IO's in most Dark Miasma sets won't make them wrose, at wrost you'll be wasting a slot you could put somewhere else.
As For Empathy:
Heal Other: 4 second recharge time, ALL heal sets are heavy on Recharge Enhancements.
Healing Aura: Good choice to 6 slot
Absorb Pain: Cost almost no Endurance to use, Heal sets also heavy on Endurance Enhancements.
Resurrect: SOL
Clear Mind: Nope
Fortitude: Defense (Actually benefits from Endurance and Recharge Enhancement components)
Recovery Aura: No, Again
Regen. Aura: Heal Set
Adrenalin Boost: Can Slot with Heal set, but miss ability to slot for Endurance Recovery.
That's three powers that make good 6 set candidates.
Two more if you want to Slot Heal Other and Absorb Pain, neither really needs 6.
And Adrenalin Boost if you want to skip Endurance Modifying Enhancements.
And your choices are limited to Heal and Defense Sets.
At this point in time, I would rather have Dark Miasma instead of Empathy if I wanted to put a set of 6 IOs in a power.
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Being forced to take tactics + trying to find a set with global accuracy bonus' just to slot a set into Twilight Grasp just shows that the IO sets were not designed with that power in mind. That is a terrible work around and you'll be gimping yourself much more and also may not have room for adding in tactics + all the slots you'll need to make tactics effective? Where am I suddenly supposed to get another 6 slots? Invent them?
Also the only person who knows what Dark Masima can take IO set wise and group wise is Iakona and the devs. You're guessing on quite a few of them and that can't really be used in an argument where you're trying to show facts as we know them.
Tar Patch, same kind of thing with Twilight Grasp. Why would I sub optimally slot a power for potentially less return from set bonus' and were am I supposed to get all these extra slots?
Shadow Fall. Sure shadow fall can take defensive sets or should be able to but slotting SF with def is foolish. The bonus you get (at least as a corruptor) is near non existent with full slotting. That would be great if you were already stacking it with other def powers but by itself it's terrible.
I don't know about you but on my Ice/Dark corruptor I have almost zero wiggle room in regards to slots and power choices. So much that some powers have less slots then I'd like already. On the other hand due to ED and the power nerfage this is so far the only character I've created that is so slot and power hungry at the same time.
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That's what gets overlooked when peole get all shook up over some of the bonuses you can get from IOs: there is an opportunity cost associated with them. And in the case of slotting Empathy will full IO sets (yes, the thread's gotten so far off topic that it's back on topic again), that opportunity cost is much lower than it is for many other Defender primaries, even though those other sets may offer a greater number of properties to be enhanced.
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Don't know if it's intended, but it comes across like you're pretty confident in what is the already-optimal slotting and purpose for the powersets- what people should slot and what you should expect from a slotter. IO's are specifically intended to shake those notions up.
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I don't care what people slot and I don't expect anything from slotters other than vaguely coherent communication and a non-suicidal playstyle. And, in the spirit of full disclosure, I expect to team with people who didn't sacrifice their primary and secondary to get all four travel powers by level 20 (they do exist)--if that makes me an elitist, so be it.
I do know what *I* consider the optimal slotting *I* would hypothetically use in a given powerset (taking into account the fact that what we know about IOs is still fairly nebulous), and I feel entitled to argue from *that* basis that one set or the other has more potential to benefit from IOs, in my personal opinion.
Until we get I9 to play with, the whole issue of "what powersets get more use out of IOs" is pure theorycraft, after all.
I think IO's will help contribute to hysterical builds.
I had the pleasure of playing with one particular woman all the way up to 47 before seeing her build. A Fire/Mace weilding tanker with each attack 3 slotted, with 1 each of Acc/Dmg/EndRed, 3 travel powers, and 3 slotted brawl. Although she had palyed the game at least a year, she was unaware that enhancement bonuses stack !!! Personally I can't wait to see what people like that will do with IO's 
Centinull
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Howling Twilight: +Regen/+Recovery? Now you're showing you don't know how this power works.
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Yes. I don't know how to play my main. Very classy.
FYI, I was talking about the *IOs* that give either a +regen or +recovery boost. Which would be good if you're not planning to 3-slot HT for use as a regen debuff.
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Shadow Fall: Can take Resistance and Defense sets.
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Yes, of course, you can slot it's nearly nonexistant defense. You can slot MANY things for IO set bonuses as long as you're willing to gimp the actual power itself.
See, the thing is that Empathy can slot its powers WITHOUT taking away from the aspects you would have slotted in the first place, which puts it ahead.