I could have sworn that KB supression was a PvP thing, since you can perm mez PvE enemies with almost every other type of mezzing effect (I've done it with Stuns and Holds with Blasters).
Guess I missed that post by him about PvE.
[ QUOTE ]
I could have sworn that KB supression was a PvP thing, since you can perm mez PvE enemies with almost every other type of mezzing effect (I've done it with Stuns and Holds with Blasters).
Guess I missed that post by him about PvE.
[/ QUOTE ]
You know ... I could have sworn it was perma-able also ...
I used to have a friend with an Electric/Energy Blaster and we used to play catch by whacking baddies back and forth (it was great fun 
) ... That was a LONG time ago, so I'm willing to give that suppression was added at some point after that ...
But how it is now is NOT how it has worked for a very long time.
It's different that's for sure ... I guess the big question is Bug or Changed ???
Bug needs to be fixed ... Change needs to be changed back.
I can confirm this as well. I kb the enemy, he stands up, I hit him again, he doesn't budge. If I waited a bit longer to do power trust it seemed to kb every time.
This better not be working as intended.
EDIT:
Thing is, I can perma KB things with my SS brute, least last time I checked, so this has to be a bug.
If it isn't a bug, there goes alot of the 3B Bible.
I've noticed this a bit on my Ice/Stone tank using air superiority. It's not as consistent as you have said but once in awhile it doesnt do the knockdown for some reason. That isn't that much of a problem with the tank but I'll have to bring out my 50 en/en to test it out. Would be a shame if it isn't perma-able now... 
So beyond what it's supposed to do ... Which was the quote I pasted in from Castle ...
There's been no official word on if we have an bug here ???
I didn't play any of my /Energy Blasters last night, is it still there ??? You know, since the Winter Event went poof maybe it was a Winter Event induced bug that also went poof.
Anyone ???
*crosses fingers*
Well, AS isn't 100% knockdown (just seems like it). Think it's like 90%? Not sure of exact number.
I've noticed this problem with power thrust as well. Thing is, usually with knockback powers, like force bolt from the force field set, if you knock them back, then use it again too soon, the mob still goes backward, but lands on his feet.
With this, like others have said, the mob doesn't budge. Looks bugged to me.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, I know this recently was discussed and Castle was quoted:
[ QUOTE ]
From: _Castle_
Nothing looks untoward on the power. KB is 100% chance, and suppresses if the target has been knocked back recently.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well after playing several /Energy Blasters in the last week, I'm here to say it's not working like it USED to.
I can see how the suppression is SUPPOSED to work. By not allowing you to keep a target perma knocked back and never get attacked.
Fine ... I'm all for not keeping something perma knocked back.
Here's how it's working now ... After MANY uses last night. I used Power Thrust and it and knocks a target back (ANY target, minion to EB) ... Then I ran up to the target and waited till it got up ... AND attacked me one time, before I fired Power Thrust again ... No knockback (AFTER the return attack, AFTER the baddie got up from the first KB), but it did register the damage from the second Power Thrust hit.
Is he saying the suppression lasts (and SHOULD last) long enough so the baddie can get two attacks in before getting knocked back again ???
Or should it be (didn't it used to be) that the target could get up, fire an attack and get knocked right back again ... Like when the target COULD attack again, the suppression was off. Meaning the suppression was ONLY to prevent us keeping a baddie unable to attack.
Because as far as I'm concerned, this functionality has changed from what it used to be, as little as a month or so ago ... In fact I'm nearly willing to go as far as to say either I8, the fix patch soon after, or the Winter Event has screwed this up from how it SHOULD be.
I'm not saying we should be able to perma KB a target and never be attacked ... But if the target is able to get up and attack, we should be able to knock it back again after the attack fires ...
I'm saying it used to work this way up till a recent patch.
Here's the problem with it as it is now ... You Power Thrust and knock back a baddie ... Toss a couple blasts at it while it's down ... It gets up and hits you, you Power Thrust again, do the damage, but get no knock back ...
Now you're stuck there toe to toe with a baddie who can (and does) attack you till Power Thrust recycles for a second time ... Or you run away like a little girl.
I'm thinking it's either broken or they in fact did nerf it so the suppression lasts longer than it used to ... Which if that's the case, it needs to be changed back.
But I'm more leaning to a bug which has made the suppression time longer somehow.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is madness. Anyone can keep any enemy "perma knocked down" using only air superiority with minor slotting.
There is no KB supression in PvE, unless they've added it to this one power (nonsense).
If KB were not permable in PvE, then neither would any other form of mez. It makes no sense.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, AS isn't 100% knockdown (just seems like it). Think it's like 90%? Not sure of exact number.
I've noticed this problem with power thrust as well. Thing is, usually with knockback powers, like force bolt from the force field set, if you knock them back, then use it again too soon, the mob still goes backward, but lands on his feet.
With this, like others have said, the mob doesn't budge. Looks bugged to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now THAT is a current bug (don't know if they are addressing it) and people see it all the time. Been compained about quite a bit. The animation won't trigger, they'll fly back buit won't fall down (and still get all attacks off with no interrupts), or they won't move at all.... been happening for a while.
The bug almost always occurs when the enemy has just started an attack animation, is completing a jump, or is getting up from being KBed.
[ QUOTE ]
I've noticed this a bit on my Ice/Stone tank using air superiority. It's not as consistent as you have said but once in awhile it doesnt do the knockdown for some reason. That isn't that much of a problem with the tank but I'll have to bring out my 50 en/en to test it out. Would be a shame if it isn't perma-able now...
[/ QUOTE ]
Never fear.... this will never happen (unless for some reason the devs all want a new job and want the game to end *now*) - making only KB have supression would destroy damage mitigation for Energy blaster, Storm defenders... anything that relies on keeping enemies on their backs...
And of course it would logically follow that KB having supression would mean every other form of mez would need suppression in PvE.
Can you imagine playing a controller with supression in PvE?
Lol. Never happen. People would run screaming out of this game in hordes.
And this is EXACTLY what I noticed when I did some Power Thrust testing a few weeks ago. There was an excessively long "Power Thrust will not work" window after an enemy was knocked back. The thing was, powers from my Energy primary could do knockback within that window. The problem seems to only be with Power Thrust.
And this is definitely NOT how it used to work, I still remember, way back in the day, the same Energy/Energy blaster taking on Tommy One Eye as a +2 boss and bouncing him around so he never got off a single attack.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
[ QUOTE ]
This is madness. Anyone can keep any enemy "perma knocked down" using only air superiority with minor slotting.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not to mention all the knockback (mag < 1) stuff like Earthquake and Freezing Rain. Air Superiority works the same since it's knockup (mag < 1).
That PvE knockback (mag > 1) and knockup (mag > 1) should work worse than the smaller magnitude powers, just because of ragdoll animations, was one of the worst things City of Villains and Issue 6 introduced to this game.
Back on topic:
Just got back from testing on live. Level 1 newbie blaster with Power Thrust, level 1 newbie mastermind with Force Bolt. I can confirm that Power Thrust is definitely working differently from other knockback powers.
Force Bolt is still affected by the "ragdoll suppression" we all know and love. Nothing's changed since Issue 6.
Power Thrust, on the other hand, is doing some funny things. For example, with Power Thrust on auto:
Power Thrust! Hellion LT goes flying!
Six seconds later.
Power Thrust! Hellion LT just stands there and takes it.
Six seconds later.
Power Thrust! Hellion LT goes flying!
Six seconds later.
Power Thrust! Hellion LT just stands there and takes it.
etc., etc.
The pattern is completely non-random. The first and every odd-numbered Power Thrust knocks back. The second and every even-numbered Power Thrust doesn't. So random chance of knockback isn't the problem. (As Castle confirmed.)
At the same time, this isn't some form of knockback immunity as with some root and hold powers. If that were the case, targets would enjoy continued immunity after every consecutive Power Thrust.
That leaves one likely culprit: PvP-style "suppressed when knocked." This is usually used together with the "if (target = player)" modifier, as with Air Superiority, which clearly chains in PvE but does not in PvP. In fact, now that I think about it, Power Thrust is behaving exactly like it does in PvP... in PvE! Time for more testing.... this time, I add Power Blast to the mix.
Power Blast! Hellion LT takes damage.
Power Blast! Hellion LT takes damage.
Power Blast! Hellion LT goes flying!
I wait for the Hellion LT to stand all the way back up and attack.
Power Thrust! Hellion LT just stands there and takes it.
Voila. This is consistent with PvP style "suppressed when knocked" on Power Thrust being erroneously applied to both PvE and PvP (thanks to NOXiam @ Freedom for joining me in the arena today to test this). If Castle goes into the database and looks closely, I'll bet he'll find that Power Thrust's knockback is tagged "suppressed when knocked" but "if (target = player)" is missing.
Finally, checking City of Data, their Issue 7 database doesn't show "suppressed when knocked" of any sort for Power Thrust.
Conclusion:
This means that "suppressed when knocked" was probably added some time after Issue 7... and the "if (target = player)" part, to restrict the suppression to PvP, was forgotten about.
Anyway... if someone wants to PM Castle, go ahead. I'd do it myself, but I'm shy.
[ QUOTE ]
Back on topic:
Just got back from testing on live. Level 1 newbie blaster with Power Thrust, level 1 newbie mastermind with Force Bolt. I can confirm that Power Thrust is definitely working differently from other knockback powers.
Force Bolt is still affected by the "ragdoll suppression" we all know and love. Nothing's changed since Issue 6.
Power Thrust, on the other hand, is doing some funny things. For example, with Power Thrust on auto:
Power Thrust! Hellion LT goes flying!
Six seconds later.
Power Thrust! Hellion LT just stands there and takes it.
Six seconds later.
Power Thrust! Hellion LT goes flying!
Six seconds later.
Power Thrust! Hellion LT just stands there and takes it.
etc., etc.
The pattern is completely non-random. The first and every odd-numbered Power Thrust knocks back. The second and every even-numbered Power Thrust doesn't. So random chance of knockback isn't the problem. (As Castle confirmed.)
At the same time, this isn't some form of knockback immunity as with some root and hold powers. If that were the case, targets would enjoy continued immunity after every consecutive Power Thrust.
That leaves one likely culprit: PvP-style "suppressed when knocked." This is usually used together with the "if (target = player)" modifier, as with Air Superiority, which clearly chains in PvE but does not in PvP. In fact, now that I think about it, Power Thrust is behaving exactly like it does in PvP... in PvE! Time for more testing.... this time, I add Power Blast to the mix.
Power Blast! Hellion LT takes damage.
Power Blast! Hellion LT takes damage.
Power Blast! Hellion LT goes flying!
I wait for the Hellion LT to stand all the way back up and attack.
Power Thrust! Hellion LT just stands there and takes it.
Voila. This is consistent with PvP style "suppressed when knocked" on Power Thrust being erroneously applied to both PvE and PvP (thanks to NOXiam @ Freedom for joining me in the arena today to test this). If Castle goes into the database and looks closely, I'll bet he'll find that Power Thrust's knockback is tagged "suppressed when knocked" but "if (target = player)" is missing.
Finally, checking City of Data, their Issue 7 database doesn't show "suppressed when knocked" of any sort for Power Thrust. This means that "suppressed when knocked" was probably added recently... and whoever did it forgot the "if (target = player)" part to restrict the suppression to PvP.
Anyway... if someone wants to PM Castle, go ahead. I'd do it myself, but I'm shy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the tests ... I was hoping it was just a Winter Event type thing, which when it went live originally (in December) is when I first noticed the Power Thrust issue. Though to be honest, I hadn't played a /Energy Blaster in a bit before the Winter Event, so I'm not the best judge of WHEN it started.
Evidently, because it's still happening and the Winter Event is over, something else (perhaps I8 or the 12/7 patch) caused this.
I'll PM him the link to this thread and ask him to check it out.
I don't PvP, so this is a very radical change to the power's behavior in my experience ... I mean I'm used to being able to count on a knock back when it hits, which for a squishy is very important in getting the heavy melee damage away and back to range.
It's certainly not the end of the world, but it is a bug (at least in MY book it's a bug) that I'd really like to see fixed.
Have you re-pmed _Castle_ with the results of the testing in this thread? Important notes being that only power thrust works this way, and that well after the enemy stands up, the kb is still supressed on a normal pve enemy?
[ QUOTE ]
Have you re-pmed _Castle_ with the results of the testing in this thread? Important notes being that only power thrust works this way, and that well after the enemy stands up, the kb is still supressed on a normal pve enemy?
[/ QUOTE ]
It has been sent ...
Rigel! Outstanding and detailed testing and hypothosys, I salute your diligence and dedication. As an Energy Blaster you have done what I have not the patience to do. 
High Beam - 50 Blaster Energy/Ice - 1228 Badges
Munitions Mistress - 50 Mercs/Traps
Many Other 50's, Too Many Alts, All On Freedom
Just Because You Can, Doesn't Mean You Should!
[ QUOTE ]
Conclusion:
This means that "suppressed when knocked" was probably added some time after Issue 7... and the "if (target = player)" part, to restrict the suppression to PvP, was forgotten about.
Anyway... if someone wants to PM Castle, go ahead. I'd do it myself, but I'm shy.
[/ QUOTE ]
No need. Your conclusion was exactly correct. I'm adding the PvP restriction now and it should make it's way to you folks in a patch or 3.
[ QUOTE ]
No need. Your conclusion was exactly correct. I'm adding the PvP restriction now and it should make it's way to you folks in a patch or 3 .
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah so this is like the soon(TM) thing eh?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Conclusion:
This means that "suppressed when knocked" was probably added some time after Issue 7... and the "if (target = player)" part, to restrict the suppression to PvP, was forgotten about.
Anyway... if someone wants to PM Castle, go ahead. I'd do it myself, but I'm shy.
[/ QUOTE ]
No need. Your conclusion was exactly correct. I'm adding the PvP restriction now and it should make it's way to you folks in a patch or 3.
[/ QUOTE ]
if(target == player)
Just because I'm a total pedant and cos that mistake had me stuck for two weeks when I was a student...
I still have nightmares about it..
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Conclusion:
This means that "suppressed when knocked" was probably added some time after Issue 7... and the "if (target = player)" part, to restrict the suppression to PvP, was forgotten about.
Anyway... if someone wants to PM Castle, go ahead. I'd do it myself, but I'm shy.
[/ QUOTE ]
No need. Your conclusion was exactly correct. I'm adding the PvP restriction now and it should make it's way to you folks in a patch or 3.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for responding ... And correcting the problem.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Conclusion:
This means that "suppressed when knocked" was probably added some time after Issue 7... and the "if (target = player)" part, to restrict the suppression to PvP, was forgotten about.
Anyway... if someone wants to PM Castle, go ahead. I'd do it myself, but I'm shy.
[/ QUOTE ]
No need. Your conclusion was exactly correct. I'm adding the PvP restriction now and it should make it's way to you folks in a patch or 3.
[/ QUOTE ]
Did I mention you are my favorite Dev?
[ QUOTE ]
if(target == player)
Just because I'm a total pedant and cos that mistake had me stuck for two weeks when I was a student...
I still have nightmares about it..
[/ QUOTE ]
That's funny. It was never 2 weeks for me, but that was always a fun mistake. 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if(target == player)
Just because I'm a total pedant and cos that mistake had me stuck for two weeks when I was a student...
I still have nightmares about it..
[/ QUOTE ]
That's funny. It was never 2 weeks for me, but that was always a fun mistake.
[/ QUOTE ]
Try when it's buried in almost 2000 lines of code and it isn't breaking the app in any appreciable way...
I was ready to commit murder when I found that one.
I'm sorry, I know this recently was discussed and Castle was quoted:
[ QUOTE ]
From: _Castle_
Nothing looks untoward on the power. KB is 100% chance, and suppresses if the target has been knocked back recently.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well after playing several /Energy Blasters in the last week, I'm here to say it's not working like it USED to.
I can see how the suppression is SUPPOSED to work. By not allowing you to keep a target perma knocked back and never get attacked.
Fine ... I'm all for not keeping something perma knocked back.
Here's how it's working now ... After MANY uses last night. I used Power Thrust and it and knocks a target back (ANY target, minion to EB) ... Then I ran up to the target and waited till it got up ... AND attacked me one time, before I fired Power Thrust again ... No knockback (AFTER the return attack, AFTER the baddie got up from the first KB), but it did register the damage from the second Power Thrust hit.
Is he saying the suppression lasts (and SHOULD last) long enough so the baddie can get two attacks in before getting knocked back again ???
Or should it be (didn't it used to be) that the target could get up, fire an attack and get knocked right back again ... Like when the target COULD attack again, the suppression was off. Meaning the suppression was ONLY to prevent us keeping a baddie unable to attack.
Because as far as I'm concerned, this functionality has changed from what it used to be, as little as a month or so ago ... In fact I'm nearly willing to go as far as to say either I8, the fix patch soon after, or the Winter Event has screwed this up from how it SHOULD be.
I'm not saying we should be able to perma KB a target and never be attacked ... But if the target is able to get up and attack, we should be able to knock it back again after the attack fires ...
I'm saying it used to work this way up till a recent patch.
Here's the problem with it as it is now ... You Power Thrust and knock back a baddie ... Toss a couple blasts at it while it's down ... It gets up and hits you, you Power Thrust again, do the damage, but get no knock back ...
Now you're stuck there toe to toe with a baddie who can (and does) attack you till Power Thrust recycles for a second time ... Or you run away like a little girl.
I'm thinking it's either broken or they in fact did nerf it so the suppression lasts longer than it used to ... Which if that's the case, it needs to be changed back.
But I'm more leaning to a bug which has made the suppression time longer somehow.