Thank you very much for the post _Castle_, it does clear a few things up. It also means we can't say that a Redname hasn't posted here in a while. 
I think we're all aware that the survivability indexes created by people here don't take into account speed to defeat enemies, but I would imagine that it would be very hard to include into an index like that. It's easier to say that a mob does 100 damage to you every second and then figure out how long you can live than to try to figure out how fast you can take them out with just your primary and add that in.
So again, thanks for stopping by and clarifying a few points, guess we'll have to try to work that kind of thing into the models somehow.
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Sounds like a hard line there Castle. Yes, assuming you have a friend with some Immobilize, Hold or other, or you take a single target hold or immob from an APP then yes, Burn actually gets to tick long enough to get to 2/3 of a minions Health.
The way it sounds like the set is intended to play is a schizophrenic firebug scattering mobs willy nilly to chase them down. We're supposed to use Burn as it's our Immob protection but we're constantly chasing running mobs.
There has to be a better way for this set to function now. The overarching fear component of Burn is a killer.
I'm interested to know what can be done about our KB protection though as you mention it. If that is fixed, many can skip leaping if they do use Burn 'as it's intended'.
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The fear effect in burn does not give the fire tank the chance to see the high damage output. Fiery Aura has always been considered to a lot of people, "kill before be killed" set. Being squishy with no defense in the set is nothing new to fire tanks. :P
A build up power on a 3 minute timer is not good enough for someone to have those penalties. I could see if it had psionic resists or defense but that is not even the case. If burn was how it use to be pre-issue 1 then I could see the knockback thing being the way it is but burn is flat out useless without the help of someone else as a form of offense. Brutes on the other hand not only get the shorter recharge but they get the aoe immoblize from the patron pools to hold multiple opponents so they still get the full benefit of burn plus it is buffed by fury. Fire tanks do not get this, and even if it did it does not justify that penalty for melee class fighters.
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Thanks for posting 
From reading your post it would seem that the fire aura set is currently balances based on the usage if Fiery Embrace. I cant say I like that concept myself.
I think some of the feedback you will see is based on the role of a tank in the team. On a 8 person team, does the damage output from a fire tank provide any benefit to the team when the blasters and scrappers are already outputing more damage than is needed?
I can go and show how they damage benefit of fire/fire gets cant stand by the side of an ice/super strenght with rage (altough that may prove rage is overpowered).
If offensive was the balance metric for fire, though, why nerf the recharge on fiery embrace?
Burn is only useful in the right team with the right, very specific builds by you. Otherwise it actually destroys what you should do and the effect of that "great damage aura".
Also why is our "energy absorbtion" such a huge recharge AND has a to hit roll? I presume its due to the tiny ammount of damage it does and how "damage should not be auto hit", but id wellcome to see this power be rid off its damage component (thats not useful at all) and turned into an energy absorbtion (energy brute version, without def).
Im sorry, but all i look at it the damage potential of fire does not justifies it's lower survivability. HOWEVER, thank you. I will use this post as a redirection in all my testing and look into ways to include the damage potential of fire into this whole thing.
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btw you aware a click self heal that is expected to be 3 sloted for recharge and animates at 1.5 seconds basicaly takes 3/60 of your maximun active (non-toggle) dps away right?
Note: sorry for all typos, have no Office on this computer.
HOLY HANNA!!! A RED NAME!!!!! 
/e Praise _Castle_
I don't even care what you said, you are now my hero! No, didn't read it, my jaw it the floor when I saw your beautiful, glorious name. Stay and chat, have some cookies, I have some peanut butter in the oven if you want to wait... Tea? Or Coffee?? Where are you going? Am I that scary????
*Tackles _Castle_ to prevent him from ever leaving*
Ahem, all sillyness aside. The only problem I have is with Burn having the Fear Effect. Blazing Aura has nothing wrong with it, imo. Also, a granny with a walker has more offence then the other three primaries, so saying Fire/ is the most offensive is really saying a whole lot. What really needs answering is its offence/defence in balance to the other sets defence/offence. As you said, Ice has a 90.1 % as effective aura. But its defences are far greater then Fires. Does Burn and FE really make that difference up? I have a friend who is a fire tanker, I'll ask him and run some stuff with him to try it out. I wonder why I never thought to do that 
...
*Edit*
Removed comments on Burn timer. _Castle_ doesn't want to get into that, and I respect that. Another time and place for it. Comments were a joke anyways 
.
1. I tried to burn you in effigy, but you keep running out of my burn patch
2. THANK YOU for posting. Its nice to hear from a red name and not be treated like the firey headed step child
3. could you make BU a buff for all attacks (20 seconds), instead of just fire? That would be a nice buff, not overpowering, and make fire a more offensive tank set for all, not just the fire/fire crowd.
Questions I have, answer if you wish:
why is /ice only affect 5, as opposed to 10? some of us ice/ice wouldnt mind the buff, as we are low damage ( I knew /ice was low damage, but good control. The 5 limit doesnt help as much on large teams, but Im uber for solo play (on taking damage).
/ice could use some help either in damage or in control.
brute/tanker burn, as you said, another time
Can you make BU work for all damage types for 20 seconds?
i think that will go a long way to help make fire a more offensive set, as opposed best for fire/fire.
Overall, on my behalf and on many tankers, thank you for talking to us. Yes, many of us may disagree with you, but just posting on this board is a certain amount of respect saying "I acknowledge you, but I disagree'. That goes a long way, at least for me.
50 Tanks: Invul/ss, Fire/ice/fire, Ice/em, Stone/fire
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1st- Thanks for posting. Been awhile- it's appreciated.
2nd- You list alot of POTENTIAL there. Alot. Potential is hard to realize without support from others. And considering the long timer on Fiery Embrace, the fear in burn, that potential can only be realized for very short bursts.
I personally don't feel those 'bursts' are enough to make up for the deficiencies in the set.
No knockback
No HP modifier
Self heal is not on par with other sets
RotP is, well, what it is- that's personal preference
Burn scatters mobs- does not allow for tanking
Temp Prot is all but useless
Consume is not inline with it's ice brother- granted, that may be trade-off for Fiery Embrace
And again, thanks for posting.
Can you address Healing Flames only being a 17% Heal, when I believe it is supposed to be a 25% heal?
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.
On another note- you haven't given us your opinion.
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My SG has two lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tankers (my own is level 24 now). Are they viable tanks? One says "yes" the other says "I'm gimped." I've grouped with both of them and had no problems.
[/ QUOTE ]
What say you after 24 levels?
Overpowered?
Just right?
Gimped?
What powers did you take, and how has your solo and grouping experience been?
Thanks,
eh. my Fire tank has been on the shelf so long I don't even care anymore.
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I'm interested to know what can be done about our KB protection though as you mention it. If that is fixed, many can skip leaping if they do use Burn 'as it's intended'.
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You know what, I'll bet they put that Knockback protection into Burn, with the Immob protection. That'd make me laugh. I'd also probably delete my Fire/Fire Tanker after that.
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Burn is only useful in the right team with the right, very specific builds by you. Otherwise it actually destroys what you should do and the effect of that "great damage aura".
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Isn't this like complaing about an AE immob power not really doing all that much until it's combined with something that benefits from the mob not scattering?
The idea that one power works better when combined with another power on a team means that you can be rewarded for teaming and for using just a bit of thinking. It seems to me that if you eliminate things like that you're making a game geared solely to the solo player and making this just a game of losely associated parts that don't add up to something greater. It's almost like switching the Empathy buffs to be for the caster only or maybe making Tar Patch only benefit the caster. Not to the same degree but both show examples of a power getting better with the team, especially when certain combinations are made.
I understand that lots of people like to solo and like to gear balance towards that solo play, I'm guilty of it myself. But it is kind of nice to see a power that benefits from working with a teammate.
The problem with fiery embrace is that the timer is way too long to be viable every group. If we are to survive by killing the mobs more quickly, then we need something that is up for every fight. I am not suggesting that fiery embrace should be 100% damage bonus every 30 seconds.
I would suggest that perhaps it would be better to put it down to 50% every minute and 1/2. Three slotted it would be up every 45 seconds or so, and then we could use it for each fight. Just like all the other tanks use their extra defence/resistance every fight.
stating what fire can do v.s. what fire HAS to do is a nice run around castle...answer thesse thoughts
fire tanks NEED to take tough/weave to survive
NO knoockback protection also gimps you
what does this mean?...3 less powers to pick from the set while the other tank sets dont need
when you nerfed fire the first time is when we had to get tough to hit the s/l limit and one slot it
so then you nerfed us and we had to 3/4 slot tough
now with e.d. you gave it to us a 3rd time
made weave useless (which on a side note you should buff like elude since weave numbers make it useless)
all castle is talking about is buffable powers which dont mean squat to the actual "TANK" part of the toon
I CANT TAKE THINGS YOU TALK ABOUT WHEN I HAVE TO PICK UP FIGHTING POOL
i.e. burn/buildup/f.e.
fix the defense then if your ok with the powers so that i can drop tough/weave
no thanks comes from not actually doing anything
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It's almost like switching the Empathy buffs to be for the caster only or...
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No- it would be like waiting for another AT to buff you because your heals only really kick in when you're buffed.
I can't get the full potential out of burn unless the mobs are somehow immobilized. Can an empathy defender say the same regarding any of their powers?
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On another note- you haven't given us your opinion.
[ QUOTE ]
My SG has two lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tankers (my own is level 24 now). Are they viable tanks? One says "yes" the other says "I'm gimped." I've grouped with both of them and had no problems.
[/ QUOTE ]
What say you after 24 levels?
Overpowered?
Just right?
Gimped?
What powers did you take, and how has your solo and grouping experience been?
Thanks,
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At 21, I could solo large groups in Dark Astoria for massive XP. I did so for 3 levels but I got very bored doing so and went back to doing missions.
Teaming, I typically hook up with a Defender or Controller and as many others when I can find them on Test (low population makes large teams more difficult to put together.) I didn't take Taunt until 22, so that made life a bit rough, but with it, I don't do badly at all. Burn followed immediately by taunt keeps the aggro on me and off of my team mates and also provides a seond or two of damage mitigation which helps.
I use Hover for KB 'protection' and Burn for Immob protection. Hover isn't great for it, but it does help.
Is this style 'optimal'? Certainly not, but it works for me.
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None of that is to say Fire/* is perfect, or 'The best' but it IS the most offensive of the Tanker secondaries, with two damage powers and one damage buff.
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Tanker primary.
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I see a lot of requests asking "Can you give Fiery Aura Knockback and/or Immobilization protection." I have to answer "Almost certainly not." It's a primary design decision, and not one I can change easily. However, before you run off and burn me in effigy,
My SG has two lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tankers (my own is level 24 now). Are they viable tanks? One says "yes" the other says "I'm gimped." I've grouped with both of them and had no problems. I've seen all the math that says Fire is weaker defensively than the other sets, yet every model I have seen does not take into consideration the actual killing of opponents. Burn, Blazing Aura and Fiery Embrace are a huge offensive benefit that other tanker secondaries do not have access to. Well, ok, Blazing Aura has equivalents in Ice (90.1% of BA's damage) and Stone (81.8% of BA's damage), but neither of those can be boosted with a self buff from the Defensive set itself. Build Up with Fiery Embrace combined essentially double the damage of BA 3 slotted for Damage. Burn is essentially doubled as well. At level 50, that's ~12 points of damage every 0.2 seconds. Assuming you have a friend, temp power or, say Ring of Fire or Char from the APP's (which both benefit from Fiery Embrace as well) that's 12*5*5 (10 minus cast times for Build Up and Burn) 300 points of damage, or 2/3 of a minions HP at level 50. Burn also gives 100 seconds of Immobilization Protection equivalent to that in Unyielding.
None of that is to say Fire/* is perfect, or 'The best' but it IS the most offensive of the Tanker secondaries, with two damage powers and one damage buff. Could it use some help? Possibly. My biggest concern is actually the 'forced to take acrobatics' issue and there are other things we can do other than straight up buffs to address that.
PS: I'm aware Brutes Burn has a shorter Recharge than Tankers. I'm not going to comment on that at this time.