Empowerment Station buffs really this pathetic?
By
Alodarn,
Posted on: 2006-06-09 05:41 in Base Construction
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A small SG is much more likely to have a limited amount of salvage, which it can invest in very few buffs before stores run out.
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The second way is that smaller SGs will generally have a smaller total amount of salvage.
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Thank you, that's what I meant.
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I pretty much see two ways to interpret these two statements.
The first is in a comparative way (comparing the small SGs to another entity [non-small SG, hamster...])
A small SG is much more likely than a non-small SG to have a limited amount of salvage
smaller SGs will generally have a smaller total amount of salvage than a non-small SG.
If that's the way it was intended, then we're pretty much back to the red herring again (red hamster?).
The other way is that you didn't mean to compare them to anything else, but rather wanted to describe them in isolation.
A small SG is much more likely to have a limited amount of salvage than to have an unlimited amount of salvage
smaller SGs will generally have a small total amount of salvage.
If so... Then ok.
In either case, I don't think that total salvage/SG is very relevant to how useful the empowerment stations will be (unless you're going the route of having everyone collect, and only a few take benefit) (though it's clearly not totally without relevance either).
Salvage/Player seems to be much more relevant.
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In either case, I don't think that total salvage/SG is very relevant to how useful the empowerment stations will be (unless you're going the route of having everyone collect, and only a few take benefit) (though it's clearly not totally without relevance either).
Salvage/Player seems to be much more relevant.
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Total salvage is relevant because only the larger SG's, with larger amounts of salvage, are going to be able to build the multiple empowerment stations necessary to be able to stack enough of the buffs for there to be a noticeable effect. Smaller SG's, who can't build the higher tiers of empowerment stations, don't get the benefit of being able to stack multiple buffs from the stations.
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If you want to argue that the empowerment buffs has a low benefit/(salvage) cost ratio, then I'm with you.
But keep the size of the SGs out of it, it's a red herring at best.
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That's *mostly* true. What it leaves out is the station itself. (and I'll take for granted that people of all size SGs all want the same buffs.)
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Definitely, and I mentioned that above:
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Now, if you'd argue that smaller SGs have a harder time affording the salvage required to build the higher tier empowerment stations, then you'd have a point.
However, that cost is
a) transient
b) relatively small compared to the cost of the buffs those stations make available
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That cost is a one-time cost. Sure, it may delay smaller SGs from getting their tier2/tier3 empowerment stations, but over time that cost will be small compared to the total salvage collected.
Second, I said that the cost is relatively small compared to the cost of the buffs those stations make available.
A tier 2 tech Empowerment Station costs 12 Materials and 36 Power ("tier 1 components").
Divide that among (say) 4 SG members, and you get 3 Materials and 9 Power per member.
How many tier 2 Empowerment buffs will that buy you?
Well.... none.
The thing is that while building a tier 2 station only costs tier 1 components, all tier 2 buffs use at least one tier 2 component (Hardware/Prototype). Tier 2 components are generally somewhat harder to come by than tier 1 components (though not greatly so).
Let's look at the costs for the tier 2 buffs [Material/Power/Hardware/Prototype]
1/4/0/1
1/3/0/1
0/5/1/1
4/3/1/1
2/3/0/1
0/6/0/1
4/1/1/0
7/0/1/0
All of them use an amount of tier 1 components that are "close" to the per person cost of the empowerment station, and in addition to this they also use tier 2 components.
Would it be fair to say that the cost of the empowerment station is in some way similar to the cost of 2 buffs? It should at least be "close" to that value.
So... If you intend to only buy 1-4 buffs from it, the cost of the station is clearly not negliable. If however you intend to buy 10+ buffs (over the period of usage), the cost of the station rapidly becomes small compared to the cost of the buffs.
What about the tier 3 station?
[Material/Power/Hardware/Prototype/Software/Experimental Tech]
Cost: 38/25/9/6/0/0
Cost per person in SG of 4: 9.5/6.25/2.25/1.5/0/0
Again, tier 3 stations cost tier1/tier2 components. All tier 3 buffs cost at least one tier 3 component. Tier 3 components are generally harder to come by than tier1/tier2 components (by a significant marigin this time).
Cost of tier 3 buffs:
4/4/2/2/1/1
10/0/3/3/1/0
In this case, I'd say that the cost (per member in SG of 4) of the station is more similar to the cost of one buff (possibly lower).
Significant for the first few buffs, but after that.....
It's clear that larger SGs will have to use less components/player to build the stations, but as long as you actually intend to use the stations, this cost is relatively small compared to the cost of the buffs.
That of course leaves the question if the buffs are worth their cost, but that's a separate issue from small/large SG comparisons.
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i think break frees protect from knockback now...
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I'm pretty sure that they do, but not for 15 minutes. That's plenty of time for my squishy characters to go through an entire mission without getting knocked on my can. 
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Well you can be snarky all you want...
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When faced with an exchange that basically went like this:
Large SGs have an advantage because they can farm AVs for long periods of time!
Uh... AVs are a very bad way to get salvage.
Well, duh! Replace "farm AVs" with whatever gives salvage then! ::EyeRoll::
The responses that came to mind were either Snarky, Condescending, Patronizing or Insulting.
Snarky felt appropriate.
<shrug>
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Let's take an extreme: An SG with 2 members, and one with 75 members (no alts, for simplicity). Let us assume that each player plays exactly 1 hour per day. Let us assume they solo 100% of the time (to get the best drops). Let us further assume that they fight about the same # of enemies per hour, and that this nets, just making up a number, 10 new salvage drops per hour. Each day, the 2-member SG gets 20 salvage drops. The 75-member gets 750. This is just with people soloing but being members of a large group.
You still going to maintain that a small group can get as many salvage bits as a large one? I don't see how that could be maintained with any claim to realism or honesty.
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Now where did this come from?
I haven't claimed anything like that. On more than one occassion, I've claimed the exact opposite.
My claim was and remains that it is not obvious that a large SG will get more salvage/player than a small SG (or the other way around for that matter).
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Beyond that, the more people, the more slavage total you have -- and the more total, the more likely you have enough different things in different "categories" of salvage to combine them. Certain types of mobs drop certain types of salvage. So if you are on a large team, you have more people doing different arcs, fighting different guys. The large group will be bringing in Crey, Rikti, Family, Arachnos, etc, drops all at once in a given week. The small group, both guys might be doing the Crey arc this week, meaning they will ONLY be getting whatever salvage the Crey drop, and NONE of the salvage dropped by Rikti, Arachnos, etc, etc. That means it'll take the smaller group more time to get combinable salvage dropes relative to the large ones.
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That doesn't follow.
Rikti salvage combines very well with other Rikti salvage, but not with Arachnos salvage. Recipes tend to use salvage that are "connected". There are of course also more "generic" salvage that will fit into many types of recipes.
It is not generally true that getting salvage from multiple "factions" will improve your conversion ratio. In fact, you're much more likely to end up with more "waste".
Larger SGs do have another advantage (which I've mentioned before) when it comes to combining salvage, but you talk more about this in your other post, so I'll reply to it there.
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Finally, although your per-kill rate might be higher for drops (as it certainly is for enhancements) soloing, the mob TYPE also affects the drop rate (as it does, also, for enhancements). I don't know what the salvage drop rate is, but the enhancement drop rate is about 12% for minions, 25% for LTs, and 66% for bosses. That means if you kille more bosses relative to minions, or more LTs, you get a higher drop rate (true for enhancements, and I believe, though I have not tracked it carefully, for salvage as well). In larger groups you get more LTs and more bosses, which means the chance a drop of any sort will occur is much higher, so even though you are splitting it with your team mates, the actual drops within a mission may go up, rather than down. This will depend, of course, on group size, type of mob, and especially difficulty setting.
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I mentioned earlier the possibility that certain team-configurations might result in better salvage/time/player than other configurations.
However, this is a function of how you team, not what size SG you're a member of.
Given several players with the same salvage/prestige gain, it will always be true that a larger SG will earn more total prestige than a smaller SG.
A larger SG will also earn more total salvage.
However, they will both earn the same salvage/player.
When it comes to prestige, the uses are all on the SG level. It makes sense to look at it as one large sum.
When it comes to creating base items, the uses are also on the SG level. For this, it makes sense to look at the salvage as one large sum.
However, when it comes to buying empowerment buffs, it makes sense to look at salvage/player (unless you're going to let everyone gather the salvage, and only a small number use it).
There will of course be edge conditions (initial cost for station, "waste" in salvage conversion...), but over time, salvage/player will be the effective limit on how many buffs/player you can get.
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All of that means that it really can't be true that a small group can "out salvage" a large one. Far from it... a large group can way WAY out-salvage a small one.
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Total salvage or salvage/player?
Of course a large group can gather more total salvage than a small one (given similar conditions).
If you meant salvage/player, then you just went from a bunch of "may"s in specific circumstances to a general "can't be true".
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The problem is, the total # of salvage items is not the only thing that matters. The types of items and how many you have of each does matter.
To see that this is so, imagine you have exactly 20 salvage. I use that number because it is the cap of a given type. Imagine that, just by some strange quirk of fate, you happen to have 20 Crey pistols, and zero of anything else, in your salvage. What can you make?
Odds are, not much... probably nothing. Because almost every schematic I can think of requires at least two kinds of salvage to create. So even though you have 20, it's not a very useful 20 just at the moment.
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By some strange quirk of fate, that'll get you 6 Tech Materials. 
I see the point you're trying to make though, but that doesn't mean that it's a good one.
More about that later.
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On the other hand, imagine you have 20 salvage, but you have 5 pistols, and 5 body armor, and 4...etc, etc. You get the idea. Now you might be able to craft something. But hold on... you'd be just as bad off if you had 1 each of 20 things, as if you had 20 of one thing, because most items take 2 or more of a given thing (sometimes into the double digits) to create. So what you really want is about a half-dozen of each thing.
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You seem to have things somewhat confused. Raw salvage (devs call it tier 1 salvage) is used to create components (tier 2 salvage in dev-speak). Components are used to create base items. While certain items require double digit numbers of components, that is not the case for raw salvage->components.
Out of 152 Tech recipes (sorry if I miscounted by one or two), five of them require more than 2 of one ingredient.
Out of these five, one requires 4 of something (the ever so elusive EChips).
The other four require 3 of something. Out of these four, three of them require only that ingredient.
Most recipes require 1 of one thing, and 2 of another. Most of them also have a "mirror" recipe.
For example, 2 Rikti Armor Fragment and 1 DNA Mutation gives you a Tech Material, while 1 Rikti Armor Fragment and 2 DNA Mutations gives you a Tech Power.
This means that for these types of salvage, you won't generally end up with more than 2 "wasted" salvage. And many of them can be used in other recipes too...
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If you are in a large group, it is MUCH easier to combine those 1- and 2-unit item types into a large amount. My 2 body armors and Fred's 3 body armors and Sally's 1 body armor combine to make 6, and you can make that item that takes 6 body armors. If you're going to have to rack all 6 up by yourself, and right now you just have one, well, given that there are about 100 different types of salvage drops out there, you could be waiting a very, very long time.
You keep looking at the raw total # of salvage components, but that is not the most important factor. What matters is how many you have of the relevant types for what you want to make. The BEST case scenario is to have 20 of every single kind of thing. A large SG could, perhaps, pool together to give one person 20 of everything, and you could get some serious crafting/empowring mojo going in such a case. A single person would not be able to do that, not even close... nor could a small group.
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Like we've already discussed, most of your numbers are... off.
Ignoring that, it is of course true that a single person will end up with more "scraps"/"waste"/salvage they can't combine at the moment than a larger SG would per player. I've mentioned this before. More than once.
I mentioned earlier that this effect shouldn't be huge. Let me elaborate on that.
A limit on how much "waste" you end up with is how "small" the "lowest" recipes are.
If there's a recipe that uses 3 Broken Crey Pistols, you won't end up with more than 2 as waste.
With 2 Rikti Armor Fragment + 1 DNA Mutation -> Tech Material, and 1 Rikti Armor Fragment + 2 DNA Mutations -> Tech Power, over time you won't end up with more than 2 combined RAF/Mutations as waste (provided you fully combine) (though you could for a while be stuck with 5 RAFs).
Over time, your total amount of gathered salvage will increase, but the amount of waste will tend to remain limited.
(There are special cases where some types of salvage will tend to accumulate (Energy Sources come to mind), but that's usually because there seem to be more efficient uses for their "counterpart" in the recipes they are in (ESs are in only 2 recipes). If the other uses really are more efficient, this buildup should remain the same (or even increase) for larger SGs.)
And that's only looking at the relative size of the waste as the total amount of gathered salvage grows.
Let's look at what happens when we increase the SG size.
For simplicity's sake, consider the Crey Pistols (and only that one single recipe. They are also used in 2 other recipes, requiring only one of them there).
The amount of "total waste" will still be limited to 2 of them, but as the number of members go up, the maximum waste/member will shrink.
Members: max waste/member
1: 2
2: 1
3: 0.66
4: 0.5
5: 0.4
6: 0.33
7: 0.29
8: 0.25
9: 0.22
10: 0.2
25: 0.08
50: 0.04
75: 0.03
Most of the benefit will be seen from the first couple of members, after that the relative effect of each additional member will quickly shrink.
You have to double the SG size in order to cut the waste/member in half.
Similar cases will hold for waste in general.
So while it's true that larger SGs might have an easier time to make efficient use of their salvage, the waste is limited by how "small" the recipe requirements are in relation to the salvage gathered, and most of the benefit will be seen from the first few members anyway.
My SG of two has a fairly good conversion ratio, and an SG of 4 should be able to manage even better.
(Also, while the new Salvage storage makes it much easier to combine salvage within SGs, it's also possible to trade salvage with people outside your SG. While not as common, it can be useful for trading magic salvage for tech salvage (or the other way around), and sometimes also for some of the "rare" salvage)
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Multiple empowerment stations will stack the buffs that are offered (by design). If we made the buffs as good as players "expect" right out the gate, they'd be WAY too good when stacked.
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Let me get this straight. You actually expect people to waste multiple high-end components to stack something that is already useless? If one buff is a bad deal, what makes you think people would be willing to stack 10? Please do pull your head out of your rear and admit that the recipes, just like base rent, base item costs,etc are fundamentally broken and poorly designed. Don't believe us? Do some data mining after 2 weeks and see how many people are ACTUALLY using the buffs, then do post your enlightening results to show us whether we are wrong or you are.
The only thing worse than devs making bad decisions is the hoard of fanboys and bootlickers that keep cheering them on.
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Multiple empowerment stations will stack the buffs that are offered (by design). If we made the buffs as good as players "expect" right out the gate, they'd be WAY too good when stacked.
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How about make them not stack, but also not so incredibly crappy that they are a joke.
The durations are incredibly short. The effect is minimal at best. The costs are astronomical.
Also, why aren't there craftable things like jet packs, rocket boots, etc?
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Are you really going to spend 50 Tech Material, 15 Tech Hardware, 15 Tech Prototype, 5 Tech Software, plus the salvage cost of FIVE of the 3rd tier empowerment stations just to get 25% psionic resistance for 15 minutes?
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If these numbers are correct, and I suspect they are or nearly are, no small SG would throw away salvage like this. Why make unpowered storage and empowerment gizmos for small SGs and then make the benefits trivial and super-expensive so they cannot be exploited by big SGs?
Those pesky players, always trying to improve their characters and trivialize content. Well, we'll just stack the deck against anything like that happening. That'll show 'em.
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Just change the design so you can't stack the buffs, then make the buffs worthwhile. It's maddening that the stations were watered down to such impotence to encourage stacking.
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15 minute buffs are ridiculous. Make the buffs last until the character logs off. These aren't big buffs, even when stacked.
(Horror of horrors, a tank might actually be somewhat more resistant to damage for a while. Guess that would just be too much for PvP...)
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
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Multiple empowerment stations will stack the buffs that are offered (by design). If we made the buffs as good as players "expect" right out the gate, they'd be WAY too good when stacked.
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Something about the wording you used here confused me a little and i was hopeing for some clerifacation. When you say that "Multiple empowerment stations will stack the buffs that are offered" It could be taken to mean one of three things.
1.) the more stations you have the better the buff becomes. You buy it once and it buffs by a base value mutiplied by the number of stations you own.
2.) If you have multiple stations you can buy it once from each station to stack the buff but you can't buy the buff multiple times from the same station
or 3.) You only need one station but you can buy the same buff over and over untill it's usefull.
can you clerify how this Actualy works
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Don't believe us? Do some data mining after 2 weeks and see how many people are ACTUALLY using the buffs, then do post your enlightening results to show us whether we are wrong or you are.
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I am very curious about what the actual numbers on use of these buffs are. I can't justify the expenditure of salvage for a marginal buff (I would barely even consider making a side trip to the base for a small 15 minute buff if it was free), and although I haven't followed this thread in detail, I don't know of anyone actually using empowerment buffs regularly.
It's not really official, but from personal experience...
I have yet to see anyone I team with buffed with these. and I team almost all the time. (I check out everyone's auto-power list to see who's earned accolades yet.)
We have a very large base with every feature we can find, and didn't bother dropping these stations. No one in the SG has asked where they are.
Of our 9 coalitions, I do not think any of them have bought these stations.
I have yet to see any SG spamming for recruits advertise their empowerment stations among their perks.
I have also yet to see any kind of demand for salvage from people who may be trying to buff themselves.
as I said, not the usage data you're asking for, but a pretty good slice of life on Liberty. I'll start asking around a bit more, see what I can learn.
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Multiple empowerment stations will stack the buffs that are offered (by design). If we made the buffs as good as players "expect" right out the gate, they'd be WAY too good when stacked.
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Something about the wording you used here confused me a little and i was hopeing for some clerifacation. When you say that "Multiple empowerment stations will stack the buffs that are offered" It could be taken to mean one of three things.
1.) the more stations you have the better the buff becomes. You buy it once and it buffs by a base value mutiplied by the number of stations you own.
2.) If you have multiple stations you can buy it once from each station to stack the buff but you can't buy the buff multiple times from the same station
or 3.) You only need one station but you can buy the same buff over and over untill it's usefull.
can you clerify how this Actualy works
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Very good question that. I believe options 2 and 3 have been addressed on this thread and the answer seems to be neither way works at the moment. But option 1 ... that's an interesting possiblity and one that almost--but only almost --makes sense.
I burned a little game time installing the stations last night and built a buff for a mission I was starting ... by the time the entire team was on location and ready to go, the buff had dropped. So, lucky for me, I never had the chance to experience just how pathetic the buff would have been. 
Random FX
aka Jon Random; Aracknight (Champion)
aka Pandemonia; Daemonica (Victory)
aka Ultra Supreme; Mr. Eos (Infinity)
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Don't believe us? Do some data mining after 2 weeks and see how many people are ACTUALLY using the buffs, then do post your enlightening results to show us whether we are wrong or you are.
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I am very curious about what the actual numbers on use of these buffs are. I can't justify the expenditure of salvage for a marginal buff (I would barely even consider making a side trip to the base for a small 15 minute buff if it was free), and although I haven't followed this thread in detail, I don't know of anyone actually using empowerment buffs regularly.
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Don't hold your breath my friend. I woudln't be surprised if they are unwilling to release such information. It would show that they wasted their time and resources on features that people are unwilling to use. Oh if you are reading this Positron, prove me wrong and show us just how "popular" these fabulous buffs are.
The only thing worse than devs making bad decisions is the hoard of fanboys and bootlickers that keep cheering them on.
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Multiple empowerment stations will stack the buffs that are offered (by design). If we made the buffs as good as players "expect" right out the gate, they'd be WAY too good when stacked.
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So make them better, but un-stackable. End of problem.
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/agree
If they are going to be too overpowered when stacked, but a) most people aren't going to be able to stack them and b) the salvage costs for stacking them are insane
DON'T MAKE THEM STACK
Is it ever possible to just get something thats actually good as it is? Instead of needing Eight somethings to make a useful tool?
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Multiple empowerment stations will stack the buffs that are offered (by design). If we made the buffs as good as players "expect" right out the gate, they'd be WAY too good when stacked.
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So make them better, but un-stackable. End of problem.
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/agree
If they are going to be too overpowered when stacked, but a) most people aren't going to be able to stack them and b) the salvage costs for stacking them are insane
DON'T MAKE THEM STACK
Is it ever possible to just get something thats actually good as it is? Instead of needing Eight somethings to make a useful tool?
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QFT
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Multiple empowerment stations will stack the buffs that are offered (by design). If we made the buffs as good as players "expect" right out the gate, they'd be WAY too good when stacked.
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Ummm, tonight I made a Disorient resist buff from the tier 2 station, and when I tried to make the same buff from the tier 3 station I got a cryptic error message along the lines of "Cannot create because your inventory is full"
I take stacking to mean that if I make a buff at a low level station, and make the same buff at a high lvl station, they will stack, so it should have worked.
Is this not what you mean by "stacking" ?
Confused,
HM
Infinity, PCDF
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It's not the duration that's the problem, it's the intensity. The buff had easily another 13 minutes left to run on it. You can check by right clicking on the icon in the top right of your screen.
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Really? this worked for you?
For me, In order to see the time remaining, I had to open up my powers tab and right click on the buff under the "temporary powers" section. Right clicking on the icon in the upper right and choosing Get Info just told me it was good for 15 minutes.
-HM
Infinity, PCDF
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I want Increase Run Speed to be as fast as unslotted Speed Boost.
I want the mez resistance to be as strong as Accelerate Metabolism.
I want the perception buff to be as strong as Tactics.
I want each damage resistance buff to be as good as one of the sonic shields.
I want an Endurance Recovery buff as strong as unslotted Stamina.
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I can go with this but I still like Super's idea as to when the power is activated.
I put the station in my base and promptly took it out...im not going to have my members raiding our salvage storehouse for 15 minute buffs EXCEPT for raids... thats the only time I can see 15 minute stuff helping...
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I put the station in my base and promptly took it out...im not going to have my members raiding our salvage storehouse for 15 minute buffs EXCEPT for raids... thats the only time I can see 15 minute stuff helping...
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If you are tech based, why not have an arcane one? and vice versa.
Gives the lowbies the ability to break down and refine the salvage you don't use for your base.
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...It's so hard to find a good solo group these days....
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Yeah.
-FB
PS: I also tested the station buffs, and THEY DO NOT STACK. In fact, they use the SAME menu / options. Try this: Expand one or two powers/components, then close that window - go to the next station, and see that it's selection window has the same powers/components expanded.
Also the little "HELP" under each non-expanded window: is that a place-holder for something, well, HELPful? Seems like these were rushed out, w/o thinking about them, and the original designer has probably been canned.
"Look how many pages of crap are in this thread already!" -r0y to all threads on these forums.
we think the buff thingys should be like the temp powers you get from mayhem missions. For the cost of salvage You might as well be buying a temp that lasts 1 day of ingame time...
i hope this will be thought about .. cuz im sick of being screwed because i dont have 75 people in my VG
I'd bet that in the course of 5 News missions and one Mayhem you won't even pick up enough Salvage to use the buff station once. It's easier to keep gathering Raid side-missions.
i think break frees protect from knockback now...