I gotta say this is a terrific post! I'm only involved with CoH, and for me its been such a kick to be super powered, and to save lives, just live out this fantasy that so far I had not stopped to think about the anti-democratic vibe inherant in Paragon. Kinda harshed on my mellow there friend 
but worthwhile nonetheless. Of course now I'm wondering if CoH could be sort of a brainwashing tool for the far right of American gov..........
Well, until I read your post, I never dreamed I would play CoV, now I'm rethinking that thought. I supose for me, I play a "hero" because I think of myself (in RL) as "wholesome", as a positive force for good in my own limited way. I am also very individualistic in RL, and a true believer in democracy, and the inherant goodness of my fellow person. It's fairly shocking to think this fun, awesome little game has lulled me even for a moment into a sort of fascistic (is that a word), jackboot mentality! Gonna take me a while to mull that over.
One thing I would point out to you about American history. During WW2, American citizens that even *looked* asian were herded off to "internment camps" out west. I mention that to remind that the current regime's penchant for "racial" profiling is not new.
Really, a very excellent post friend. Very well considered, and to me at least, something to think about. To all those who say "it's just a game", I'd say "yeah, it is.....but it's pretty frelling deep too!" Thanks for pointing that out!
"The cure for cowardice is not more whimpering and cringing, but to bare your teeth." Fr. Pontefescue
"The earth is not dying, it is being killed, and those who are killing it have names and addresses." ~ Utah Phillips
Remember Greg McKendry
umm there is accountability for the heroes. why do you think we all have to be registered heroes? if you read the comics, there's even a hero put on trial for murder. as for the 5th column/Council, its not that they're just standing on the corner making political speeches, they are actively seeking to overthrow the government through militayr means (last I checked that counted as treason . ..) as for the other mobs just standing around while we attack, go stand near them and listen to their dialog. For the most part, they are involved in some kind of crime at the time or plotting a crime. if a cop hears some people planning a robbery or a murder, it is perfectly legal for the cop to bring them in for questioning (which technically, we are just sending mobs to prison). They may not be doing anything at the moment but they could be recognized from a previous crime and be taken in. It also doesn't help their case when they tend to attack you just for walking by. The few places in the game where they actually are just standing around and not attacking civilians are usually in hazard zones where its already walled off and the inhabitants know that its under martial law.
This can also be applied to any of the comic book heroes but even more so. Many of the heroes in the comics are actively hunted by the cops because they are vigilantes; they fight crime outside of the law and government.
Last I checked, all immigrants (well legal ones anyways) had their country of origin marked. It's not just the Afghans.
I can give you a different example though. In the US military, people of Korean descent are not allowed into nuclear programs.
It's a pretty interesting take on CoH and would love to hear some of your other views.
Btw, Boudicia, racial profiling isn't just from you call the "current regime" . .. its pretty much happened nonstop throughout the conutry's history. Also, your comment about any Asians being herded off is not true. Those of Japanese descent were.
As for what you say about it might being a tool of the far right of our government, I take it you haven't really taken any poli sci classes? Our government if seen from the big picture is fairly center. Our two parties politically are not that different (especially when you compare it to places like Europe).
Here's another thought to chew on. What party, Republican or Democrat, seems to be infringing on our freedoms more? While it may seem the ones coming from the right are more numerous, we actually get more restrictions from the left. The ones coming from the right tend to be more about national security while the ones from the left tend to be more domestic issues. One example that is affecting just the gaming comminity is that we got bills going through Congress that will make games such as CoH or other violent games be unable to be sold. There's a restriction on our freedoms right there. Just look around the country and you'll see plenty of our freedoms being restricted on the basis of "equality" for all. As for brainwashing tools for different sides of the government, what do you think the liberal media has done?
This is exactly open of those fascionmating debates Iw as mentioning.
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umm there is accountability for the heroes. why do you think we all have to be registered heroes?
[/ QUOTE ]
Is any player in any way accoutnable to those they harass? I suggest you look closely at the missions and ask how many of them would pass constitutional checks today. (Snd the consitution has been weakened by recent govermental moves.)
Being registered by the government makes you accountable only to the government-- which is those giving you those missions.
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if you read the comics, there's even a hero put on trial for murder.
[/ QUOTE ]
Seperate work of art with indepednat writers. Im sorry but it doesnt pertaon. Many thinsg occurr in the comics that cannot occur in game and dont encessarily even really match u pwith the world as presented by the game.
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as for the 5th column/Council, its not that they're just standing on the corner making political speeches, they are actively seeking to overthrow the government through militayr means
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly what millitary action are they engaging in standing on soap boxes and preaching? This is what I have seen them doin on the streets and what we as heroes are sent out to stop-- violently.
In a free society you cannot convict someone on intentions, only on actions. Anything else is policing people's thoughts and removing the freedom to engage in politics.
This is, in fact, a tenant of our consitution as it exists today.
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(last I checked that counted as treason . ..)
[/ QUOTE ]
Check again. Thought-treason is not a US crime. Treasanous ACTS are. And you cannot convict someone just because they associate with someone else who has provably comitted a crime.
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as for the other mobs just standing around while we attack, go stand near them and listen to their dialog. For the most part, they are involved in some kind of crime at the time or plotting a crime. if a cop hears some people planning a robbery or a murder, it is perfectly legal for the cop to bring them in for questioning
[/ QUOTE ]
It is **illegal** for a police officer to beatt someone senseless. Thats called undue force. Furthermore what a police officer may do in cases where they have a suspect withotu evidence is *very* limited. Finally, a polcie officer may NOT arrest anyone for a crime they have not yet comitted.
There is a word for societies where they can arrest people on the suscpicion of future criminal activity. They are called "police states."
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They may not be doing anything at the moment but they could be recognized from a previous crime and be taken in.
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There is nothing in the game that says "You see Foozle who is wanted for <whatever.>" Whatr the game says is "go beat up X number of this group."
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It also doesn't help their case when they tend to attack you just for walking by
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How many "heroes" wait to be attacked before engaging in the use of force? Its not behavior I ever see in game.
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. The few places in the game where they actually are just standing around and not attacking civilians are usually in hazard zones where its already walled off and the inhabitants know that its under martial law.
[/ QUOTE ]
Getting back to my "this US is under martial law" point. Thank you.
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This can also be applied to any of the comic book heroes but even more so. Many of the heroes in the comics are actively hunted by the cops because they are vigilantes; they fight crime outside of the law and government.
[/ QUOTE ]
So shouldnt the OTHER heroes be hunting them? Are you suggesting that violence outside of the law is sometiems justified? If so, then how do you seperate the violence of your heroes from their opponents by anything other then arbitrary POV?
CoH in fact avoids this dilemma by making all the Hero's violence government sanctioned through the registration process and the Hero act. But, this then means that so called "heroes" are getting their entire moral standing based on a position of legality-- which you yourself just brought into question.
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Last I checked, all immigrants (well legal ones anyways) had their country of origin marked. It's not just the Afghans.
[/ QUOTE ]
Incorrect. Rigth after 9/11 a special law was passed that just appleid to Afghani. They had to physically go into an INS office to be put on a special list of who they are and where they live. They need to update that list if they move. Go read the old newspapers.
I do not remember if it was all of Afghan decent or just Afghani nationals, but I am happy to google it and find a cite for you.
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I can give you a different example though. In the US military, people of Korean descent are not allowed into nuclear programs.
[/ QUOTE ]
But America society is not suppsoed to work under millitary rules. Thats why we have a seperation of millitary and non-millitary law. Countries that run solely udner millitary law, we call despotic.
Not that I think the Millitary ruel here is justified either. If someone is a citizen, and they can pass the millitary clearance process, race should make no difference. I am surprised and disappointed to hear otherwise.
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As for what you say about it might being a tool of the far right of our government,
[/ QUOTE ]
I dont buy that either myself. A combination of factors. The game industry is too independant for that I think as a rule. It also tends to be pretty liberal though there are certainly exceptions. More, I really dont think our government is that clever 8)
I DO think however that art emerges from a societal context and that what we see in-game is at least somewhat reflective of the political times we are in.
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I take it you haven't really taken any poli sci classes? Our government if seen from the big picture is fairly center. Our two parties politically are not that different (especially when you compare it to places like Europe).
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They are less differnt then they used to be. But I do agree that our whole poltiical spectrum in the US is shifted right-wards from Europe. A moderate conservtive in England would be considered a moderate liberal here. (I know a few.)
However it is also true that our poltics right at this moment have shifted rightward of OUR center to a fairly serious degree.
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Here's another thought to chew on. What party, Republican or Democrat, seems to be infringing on our freedoms more?
[/ QUOTE ]
The republicans. because they are in chagre.
When the democrats are in charge, they impinge more.
Thats the reality.
My favorite quote on this whole thing came from a very intelligent and well spoken libertarian: "The debate on whether we are going to live in a police state is over. All we are debating now is who gets to be the police."
As just one example of our slide into a polcie state, were yo uaware that for about the first 175 years of his country it was accepted as a legal *fact* that the constitution absolutely forbade *any* attempts to legislate what peopel put in ther bodies. (eg drugs.)
The constitution was never changed, but this particualr understanding of its meaning was gradually eroded away in the minds of the public til noone objected to the change.
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While it may seem the ones coming from the right are more numerous, we actually get more restrictions from the left. The ones coming from the right tend to be more about national security while the ones from the left tend to be more domestic issues.
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<sarcasm>
I did not know that fetal stem cells, abortion, dfinitions and limitations of marriage, or limitation of what counts as art were national security issues.
</sarcasm>
Your concept is seriously out of date. The neo-cons chnaged it,. This adminsitration has been HEAVILY into domestic controls.
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One example that is affecting just the gaming comminity is that we got bills going through Congress that will make games such as CoH or other violent games be unable to be sold. There's a restriction on our freedoms right there.
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Yup and idiots on BOTH sides of the political spectrum are supporting it. Im not sure when the democrats became pro-censorship but this is one palce where they used to be further apart.
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As for brainwashing tools for different sides of the government, what do you think the liberal media has done?
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a wonderful shining generality and a myth almost as constant and pernicious as the "Elders of Zion.". The so called "liberal media" as an organized force never existed. I know this as a fact because I am the son of journalists. The traditional Journalists *tended* to be liberal because they saw their role (rightly) as the people's watch-dog on governmental abuse.
The same cannot be said however of the current conservative media *machine* which runs on central control from the white house with daily memos that give the messages of the day to be sold to the people.
I suggest you rent "outfoxxed", if you are open enough not automatically dismiss anything you hear which doesnt meet with your preconceptions.
um i take it you took my response as pretty much against yours which it wasn't meant to be. more of a point to discuss which is what I thought you wanted.
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Being registered by the government makes you accountable only to the government-- which is those giving you those missions.
[/ QUOTE ]
how is this different from the police then? law enforcement is basically the same thing. they're "registered" with the government and since they're the ones who are enforcing the law, they're pretty much only accountable to themselves.
[ QUOTE ]
It is **illegal** for a police officer to beatt someone senseless. Thats called undue force. Furthermore what a police officer may do in cases where they have a suspect withotu evidence is *very* limited. Finally, a polcie officer may NOT arrest anyone for a crime they have not yet comitted.
[/ QUOTE ]
well we do have conspiracy charges. if someone's conspiring to murder someone, they can arrest them before the act. there's a difference between suspicion and actually conspiring to commit a crime. while police can't just arrest based on a suspicion, if we have evidence to a crime then we can.
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How many "heroes" wait to be attacked before engaging in the use of force? Its not behavior I ever see in game.
[/ QUOTE ]
heh, i guess you've never tried to get to a mission in the hollows then . ..
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So shouldnt the OTHER heroes be hunting them? Are you suggesting that violence outside of the law is sometiems justified? If so, then how do you seperate the violence of your heroes from their opponents by anything other then arbitrary POV?
[/ QUOTE ]
I never said that violence outside of the law is good. vigilantism, in my opinion, is a bad thing. I was saying that what you wrote about CoH can be applied to the comic books as well. What I was saying was in SUPPORT of what you're writing so quit taking everything I said in a negative way.
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Incorrect. Rigth after 9/11 a special law was passed that just appleid to Afghani. They had to physically go into an INS office to be put on a special list of who they are and where they live. They need to update that list if they move. Go read the old newspapers.
[/ QUOTE ]
well I know my grandmother who was naturalized a long time ago had to go into a office to get some stuff updated (chinese btw)
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Not that I think the Millitary ruel here is justified either. If someone is a citizen, and they can pass the millitary clearance process, race should make no difference. I am surprised and disappointed to hear otherwise.
[/ QUOTE ]
yeah, I was surprised to hear about it too. We went through a pretty thorough security check when we first signed up and I really think a tie to the North Korean government would've popped up somehow.
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I dont buy that either myself. A combination of factors. The game industry is too independant for that I think as a rule. It also tends to be pretty liberal though there are certainly exceptions. More, I really dont think our government is that clever 8)
I DO think however that art emerges from a societal context and that what we see in-game is at least somewhat reflective of the political times we are in.
[/ QUOTE ]
that comment wasn't directed at you but rather to the other person that replied in your thread. think the conspiracy theory wheels were turning too hard in his mind or something to think CoH was a tool of the government right . ..
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As just one example of our slide into a polcie state, were yo uaware that for about the first 175 years of his country it was accepted as a legal *fact* that the constitution absolutely forbade *any* attempts to legislate what peopel put in ther bodies. (eg drugs.)
The constitution was never changed, but this particualr understanding of its meaning was gradually eroded away in the minds of the public til noone objected to the change.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just shows how the Constitution is supposedly a living document and can be interpreted to fit the times.
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I did not know that fetal stem cells, abortion, dfinitions and limitations of marriage, or limitation of what counts as art were national security issues.
[/ QUOTE ]
if you noticed, i put "tend to". what i said wasn't an absolute. giong by your thinking of absolutes, then the democrats wouldn't touch anything outside of the country . ..
[ QUOTE ]
This is a wonderful shining generality and a myth almost as constant and pernicious as the "Elders of Zion.". The so called "liberal media" as an organized force never existed. I know this as a fact because I am the son of journalists. The traditional Journalists *tended* to be liberal because they saw their role (rightly) as the people's watch-dog on governmental abuse.
[/ QUOTE ]
people who are just delivering the news and facts of what happens are fine with me. What I get annoyed with is when people then go and tell us how we should interpret some event.
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I suggest you rent "outfoxxed", if you are open enough not automatically dismiss anything you hear which doesnt meet with your preconceptions.
[/ QUOTE ]
what? are you implying that I can't keep an open mind? thanks for keeping an open mind yourself . ..
BTW, you should really check to see who people are talking to next time. There's a clear division from where I was responding to your post and where I was responding to Boudicia's. Some of your responses sounded like you thought I was attacking your views when I was just responding to the other person.
Nerf Stalkers!
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In a free society you cannot convict someone on intentions, only on actions. Anything else is policing people's thoughts and removing the freedom to engage in politics.
This is, in fact, a tenant of our consitution as it exists today.
Thought-treason is not a US crime. Treasanous ACTS are. And you cannot convict someone just because they associate with someone else who has provably comitted a crime.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know this wont win me any friends around here, but Z. Moussaoui was just sentenced to life in prison for exactly that, his thoughts and associations.
Also, I take my forum name in part form queen Boudicia, a British Isles queen who fended off the Romans and burnt London to the ground. I mention this because I get very irritated when posters just *assume* I am a male person. I am in fact female.
"The cure for cowardice is not more whimpering and cringing, but to bare your teeth." Fr. Pontefescue
"The earth is not dying, it is being killed, and those who are killing it have names and addresses." ~ Utah Phillips
Remember Greg McKendry
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I take my forum name in part form queen Boudicia, a British Isles queen who fended off the Romans and burnt London to the ground. I mention this because I get very irritated when posters just *assume* I am a male person. I am in fact female.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thought it seemed a little familiar. I've just never seen it spelled that way before. I've only seen "Boadica".
I intend to read this post and it's responses when I can find my glasses and when I'm not as intoxicated as I am now. But from what I read. The first post was awsome. Very well thought out and written. As I thought back at past comic books I read ( superman/batman and those such.) I have noticed a, semi-pattern. DC comics follows the "Truth, Justice, And the American Way" path. Where as Marvel doesn't have a motto. More a "We are here to stay, mutant or otherwise. Accept us" Does anybody see this aside from me? Look at both sides characters and story lines. Let me know what you think.
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how is this different from the police then? law enforcement is basically the same thing. they're "registered" with the government and since they're the ones who are enforcing the law, they're pretty much only accountable to themselves.
[/ QUOTE ]
Polcie do not hide their identities nor do they work independant of oversite. Ask a policeman how much paprwork he needs to file if he even takes his gun out of his holster.
If you are asking how it differs from *Secret Police*, then IMHO not at all.
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well we do have conspiracy charges. if someone's conspiring to murder someone, they can arrest them before the act.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is an incorrect understanding of the law. I refer you to
http://www.lectlaw.com/def/c103.htm
In particular this senatnce:
Also, because the essence of a conspiracy offense is the making of the agreement itself (followed by the commission of any overt act),
The essance of the law is that there must be an overt act.
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, if we have evidence to a crime then we can.
[/ QUOTE ]
Absoltuely, but discussing how to commit a crime is not in itself any evidence that a crime has been committed. And that is what you were proposing justified Coh heroes beatign up and arresting said discussers.
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[ QUOTE ]
So shouldnt the OTHER heroes be hunting them? Are you suggesting that violence outside of the law is sometiems justified? If so, then how do you seperate the violence of your heroes from their opponents by anything other then arbitrary POV?
[/ QUOTE ]
I never said that violence outside of the law is good. vigilantism, in my opinion, is a bad thing. I was saying that what you wrote about CoH can be applied to the comic books as well. What I was saying was in SUPPORT of what you're writing so quit taking everything I said in a negative way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Alright. It was hard to dsitinguish. Ill take you at your word that you are agreeing with my fundemental point.
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well I know my grandmother who was naturalized a long time ago had to go into a office to get some stuff updated (chinese btw)
[/ QUOTE ]
Totally different. I did the googling. Its called the "Sepcial registration act" of 2003. You can find soem easy to read details here:
http://www.bu.edu/isso/news/2003/200...-advisory.html
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I dont buy that either myself. A combination of factors. The game industry is too independant for that I think as a rule. It also tends to be pretty liberal though there are certainly exceptions. More, I really dont think our government is that clever 8)
I DO think however that art emerges from a societal context and that what we see in-game is at least somewhat reflective of the political times we are in.
[/ QUOTE ]
that comment wasn't directed at you but rather to the other person that replied in your thread. think the conspiracy theory wheels were turning too hard in his mind or something to think CoH was a tool of the government right . ..
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes i udnerstood., here *I* was a greeing with *you* 8)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As just one example of our slide into a polcie state, were yo uaware that for about the first 175 years of his country it was accepted as a legal *fact* that the constitution absolutely forbade *any* attempts to legislate what peopel put in ther bodies. (eg drugs.)
The constitution was never changed, but this particualr understanding of its meaning was gradually eroded away in the minds of the public til noone objected to the change.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just shows how the Constitution is supposedly a living document and can be interpreted to fit the times.
[/ QUOTE ]
It is a living document but it is also suppsoed to have meaning. if it can be totally reinterpreted at a whim then it has none, true?
My key poitn though, and "police state" is a term that is really overly stroing and I msotly used it because of the quote I was referencing, is that this country *has* constantly moved away from personal freedoms and towards more governmental regulation and control over time. And both poltical parties are equally repsonsible.
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[ QUOTE ]
I did not know that fetal stem cells, abortion, dfinitions and limitations of marriage, or limitation of what counts as art were national security issues.
[/ QUOTE ]
if you noticed, i put "tend to". what i said wasn't an absolute. giong by your thinking of absolutes, then the democrats wouldn't touch anything outside of the country . ..
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I dsipute even your "tend to". FWIHS the past 6 or so years of Republican rule have ahd a *much* stronger and further reaching domestic agenda then the democrats have had fora long time.
I think you are drawing on an old generality that no longer applies. Thre is a reason they call those in pwoer currently in the Republican party nep-conservatives -- it is a new and very different thing from the old Replublican conservativism.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a wonderful shining generality and a myth almost as constant and pernicious as the "Elders of Zion.". The so called "liberal media" as an organized force never existed. I know this as a fact because I am the son of journalists. The traditional Journalists *tended* to be liberal because they saw their role (rightly) as the people's watch-dog on governmental abuse.
[/ QUOTE ]
people who are just delivering the news and facts of what happens are fine with me. What I get annoyed with is when people then go and tell us how we should interpret some event.
[/ QUOTE ]
I 100% agree. That is called editorializing and it is as inappropriate when the left does it as whe the right does it. It also used to be something the media kept well away from as part of journalism ethics.
It is only in the last genernation or so of "newsmen" (and i use the term loosely) that editorializing has become common place. That concides exactly with the chnage in where newsmen come from. It use to be a craft you learned from older newspeople. In the last generation it switched to beign an academic discipline and our nespeople instead were trained by journalism departments of Universities that didnt have the same traditions.
[ QUOTE ]
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I suggest you rent "outfoxxed", if you are open enough not automatically dismiss anything you hear which doesnt meet with your preconceptions.
[/ QUOTE ]
what? are you implying that I can't keep an open mind? thanks for keeping an open mind yourself . ..
[/ QUOTE ]
I apologize. "The Liberal Media" as a phrase is a flash point for me and people who use it usually, IME, do not have open minds.
I *do* suggest you see outfoxxed if you havent though and you cna see how the right in thsi country have made an organized effort at propaganda out of the editorializing we are both decrying.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a free society you cannot convict someone on intentions, only on actions. Anything else is policing people's thoughts and removing the freedom to engage in politics.
This is, in fact, a tenant of our consitution as it exists today.
Thought-treason is not a US crime. Treasanous ACTS are. And you cannot convict someone just because they associate with someone else who has provably comitted a crime.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know this wont win me any friends around here, but Z. Moussaoui was just sentenced to life in prison for exactly that, his thoughts and associations.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not quite, take a look at the link I posted explaining conspiracy law.
He was chraged and convicted of conspiracy, where the conspiracy was workign with the 9/11 attackers to plan the attack and the overt act was the attack itself.
Now whether ANY trial this well publiscized and linked to this emotional an event can be truely fair is a whole "NOTHER discussion.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I take my forum name in part form queen Boudicia, a British Isles queen who fended off the Romans and burnt London to the ground. I mention this because I get very irritated when posters just *assume* I am a male person. I am in fact female.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, to be fair, if you have to assume a gender male is far more likely in gaming circles. And character names are no help. My two most played characters right now are both female.
But I'll certainly use the correct pronoun now that I know it! 8)
[ QUOTE ]
I intend to read this post and it's responses when I can find my glasses and when I'm not as intoxicated as I am now. But from what I read. The first post was awsome. Very well thought out and written. As I thought back at past comic books I read ( superman/batman and those such.) I have noticed a, semi-pattern. DC comics follows the "Truth, Justice, And the American Way" path. Where as Marvel doesn't have a motto. More a "We are here to stay, mutant or otherwise. Accept us" Does anybody see this aside from me? Look at both sides characters and story lines. Let me know what you think.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks and you are absolutely correct abotu DC and Marvel.
DC is the older comic book company and has traditionally followed an older format-- what is commonly referred to as "comic book morality." Very simple and well defiend good and evil roles.
Marvel was the upstart and if you read any of Stan Lee's writings, you see that he went out of his way to challenge that and all the other comic conventions of the time. This is how Marvel differentiated itself.
In that vein Marvel was also the first of the major comic book publishers to break with the Comics Code, which was a very restrictive set of rules on comic book story telling.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority)
In general, the Marvel project was to try to make the heroes more human, more conflicted, and less certain themselves of the right and wrong answers.
Probably the most outright heroic marvel invention was the X-Men, but the X-Men are about soemthign else. Its a aprable about tolerance and acceptance. ANd, originally, it was about the more sonctructive and les sconstructive ways to deal with lack of that acceptance. (Thus the X-Men's foils, Magneto's group.)
Its worth noting though that, even though the X-Mena re morally perfect in their actions, they are still hated, feared and outside of the law. By City of Heroe standards, they would be criminals. (Unregistered viliglantes.)
Beyond even marvel there were the idnependant comics who did some very daring things (and really, ultimately lead to Marvel getting brave enough to go against the code.)
IMO the story of the progression of comic book charcters from 2D action heroes to real and intresting characters ends tpday with the writings of Alan Moore. (SOme of which in the end *were* published by DC, so it all comes around to the start.) Alana Moore's stories all start from old comic book characters whic he reinvents in much more real and gritty (and generally disturbed) ways.
Some exampels include V in "V for Vendetta", who is a re-invetinon of Daredevil, the Miracle Men (whoa re a reinvention of the Captian marvel Family) and al lthe charcters in Watchmen. (The best example in Watchman is Rorschack-- who is batman.)
Post deleted by Zhao_Yun
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
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So when are you going to go ranting against other comic books?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think maybe i just did 8) (see above.)
Comic books have defeintely develoepd over the years from a very cardboard view of morality to a much deeper and more conflicted one.
Superman is the ultimate authroity figure, allowe dto o anything anywhere to anyone ebcause he knows best.
Batman at various times and under variosu writers has wandered between sanctioend vigilante and genuine outlaw.
Spiderman was hunted and feared by society and considered a villain by that society for most of his career.
The Hulk, at his best, is a force of nature-- neither good nor evil but incredibly dangerous and destructive,
And then we get into Alan Moore. One fo my favorit comic boo kwriters. Who writes mostly about people with great power and twisted psyches who do things for presonal motivations that, somestimes end up for the best, sometiems don't, and msot often leave you uncertain on what "the best" really is.
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Superman is the ultimate authroity figure, allowe dto o anything anywhere to anyone ebcause he knows best.
[/ QUOTE ]
And.. he doesn't. I don't keep up with comics (yeah, yeah, shush) - but I don't recall any of my comic geek friends mentioning The Empire Of Superman.
Batman is similar.
And, last I knew, only a bare few of my heroic contacts had anything to do with the government, on most of my characters. I think.. one former FBI agent, one former NSA agent, one former counter-terrorist..
*shrugs* The game -can't- go into detail with every mob's assorted crimes. It's a failing of the technology. It'd be amusing if we had a UI readout of exactly what every bad guy did, but the first and foremost thing is "Assaulting an officer". The game -has- to take care of details that are irrelevant behind the scenes, because otherwise, we'd be taken away from the game for too often. "I have to go to City Hall to pick up -another- warrant?"
Oh, and throwing away the comic as counterevidence, by saying that the stuff that happens in there can't happen in the game.. that's just.. no. Think for a moment. Look at previous paragraph.
I also think a major fallacy in this entire thing is looking at the Rogue Isles as free. "The strong ruling" is not freedom, it's a different form of tyranny. He With The Biggest Gun Is King.
*shrugs*
If it had deleted my post like I told it to, I'd be a much less annoyed fellow at the moment.
I also despise bringing RL politics into the Cities.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
I think you're overlooking 2 huge things >.> honestly.
You bring up interesting points but:
1) CoH is a very simplistic game by nature. It's designed to be about combat; because combat to most people is the 'interesting' part. I don't totally agree with that (I'd love some social interaction with NPC; being able to request an enemy surrender, etc).; however it really is designed on the simple black and white table of good and evil. There are good people; and there are bad people; and CoH lets you easily see who the bad guys are; so you don't have to feel guilty when you smack them around.
2) The much larger thing I think you're missing; is that the Super Hero genre is about wish fullfilment fantasy; not about what's *truely* just or right; but rather what *FEELS* just and right.
Real justice can be very complex; and doesn't always leave everyone satisfied. Example: A murderer may get 15 years in prison through a plea deal. That plea deal may bring in 15-20 people just as bad; but the family of that particular victim feels cheated. Justice was most likely served as best as possible in the situation; but it wasn't wholly satisfying.
Real justice has to have alot more mercy too, because we can't clearly see who the 'bad guys' are. They don't stand out with orange boxes around them.
Super Hero justice is different. Super hero justice means saying "I know who the enemy is, what they are doing to make my life and the lives of my countrymen/relatives/friends hell. So I'm going to do something about it." It's about taking control of a situation no real human can control. Is it truely just to pound a mugger into the pavement for taking someone's purse? Prolly not. But it *FEELS* good.
We can't do it in RL; so that's why we have superheroes in the first place. They let you avoid the complex and difficult world of real justice where you have to deal with due process and warrants; and instead get right to what feels good; SMACKING THE BADGUYS!
So, I don't think your opinions would be incorrect if the situation were a real world thing... but it's not; it's a super-heroic world in which our enemies really are clearly defined; they wear uniforms and walk our streets armed.
It'd be like living in Iraq; except the al-Qaeda people have "al-Qaeda Gunner" above their head. A real criminal is as hard to tell from the populace as an insurgent is in Iraq (I use this because its an easy example to grab at; Vietnam works as well); that's why we have due process and such in real law. Because criminals don't wear name tags.
See what I mean? ^^ You are of course; entitled to your opinion. If I don't like it I'll just beat the snot out of you! <O.O> (Hey, I'm a villain! <,< (JK JK!)
I think you're unable to make an impartial judgement as to what goes on because I think you harbor personal thoughts about war and freedom and have taken a side already, then based your in-game opinion on that.
Freedom simply means no rules, nothing holding you back, free. Absolute freedom is absolute chaos, more or less proved in CoV. Freedom needs boundaries, and they get defined daily by lawmakers. If you have just one law, you have lost total freedom. Ok so you need some laws, freedom is sacrificed for that. Thats pretty simple to understand.
Also, the need for registration of certain nationals is based on that country waging war against our own. Japan and Afghanistan (or representatives from that country) have waged a war on your country. We decided that the nationals already residing here will be tolerated but must register. I don't think that's asking too much. Your comparison with Germany and the Jews is not the same situation or for the same reason. Hitler declared war on a people and not a country. the Jews did not declare war on Hitler, thus prompting Germany to make Jews register.
Also, if you had paid a bit more attention to your contacts when they give you missions you would understand that you are not a vigilante out beating up "a people" or faction that is merely associated with a terror group, but each has its specific reasoning for putting you on the case. But I digress for the moments you need to "shake them down" with street hunting missions. But then again, I believe that some situations will require non law abiding means of confrontation. In other words, "use of force". Freedom does not mean the Hellions have a right to set a building on fire. With absolute freedom, yes, they would have a right to do that.
You've gone overboard, like many people do when they don't know how to control their own behavior and must rely on definitions and textbook laws in order to know the simplest thing... What is right and wrong?
[ QUOTE ]
I also despise bringing RL politics into the Cities.
[/ QUOTE ]
Especially in the player guides section of a game forum. This discussion is interesting and all, but it really doesn't belong here.
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Superman is the ultimate authroity figure, allowe dto o anything anywhere to anyone ebcause he knows best.
[/ QUOTE ]
And.. he doesn't. I don't keep up with comics (yeah, yeah, shush) - but I don't recall any of my comic geek friends mentioning The Empire Of Superman.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hm. I dont follow you. You tell me Im wrong adn use a total irrelevancy as an example.
He has compelte authority. His actions are never questioned and are always assumed to be right. And he pretty much does anything anywhere that he thinks will sovle the problem. Poltiical structure are totaly orthogonal. He rspects none and none touches him. Witness the comic-book period where he was fighting for the US in Korea.
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Batman is similar.
[/ QUOTE ]
Batman as I said varies from unofficially working for the government at some periods (his connections to the police dept and the famous "red phone" of the TV series) to being a genuine criminal and vigilante (the "Dark Knight").
But in any case, again, he is answerwable to noone for what he does.
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And, last I knew, only a bare few of my heroic contacts had anything to do with the government,
[/ QUOTE ]
All your starting contacts do... they are in town hall remember? Quite a few of your later contacts are millitary.
But does this make it any better? If you ARE breaking into buldings and assaulting people because people with no recognized authority ask you to, and using your goverment registration as your justification, then are you any more then a government licensed mercenary?
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*shrugs* The game -can't- go into detail with every mob's assorted crimes. It's a failing of the technology.
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Sorry but [censored]. Its a few lines of text. A medium sized database of "You see <name here> who is wanted for <crime here> would cover it."
It isnt there because it ISNT aprt of the story. You can decide that you have god whispering in your left ear and telling you unltimate truths to act on, but thats YOU putting it into the game, not the developers.
The flow of action is clear. You are told to hunt *anyone* of a given group.
[ QUOTE ]
It'd be amusing if we had a UI readout of exactly what every bad guy did, but the first and foremost thing is "Assaulting an officer"
[/ QUOTE ]
Only if you wait until they attack you. Frankly given the incredible level of violence done to people on the streets of PC daily by costumed "heroes" I think self-defense plea might well win out even then.
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The game -has- to take care of details that are irrelevant behind the scenes,
[/ QUOTE ]
You said it yourself, al these things you are suggesting are actually irellevent to what is presented. I couldnt have said it better.
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Oh, and throwing away the comic as counterevidence, by saying that the stuff that happens in there can't happen in the game.. that's just.. no. Think for a moment. Look at previous paragraph.
[/ QUOTE ]
Show me how you *build* all the charcters in the comic and the powers you see them use, and then and we'll talk about the comic. The comic is a derivative work, not a world bible.
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I also think a major fallacy in this entire thing is looking at the Rogue Isles as free. "The strong ruling" is not freedom, it's a different form of tyranny. He With The Biggest Gun Is King.
[/quoite]
Freer, not free. Don't over-sell my statement.
[ QUOTE ]
I also despise bringing RL politics into the Cities.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, I'm sorry, but why are you even bothering with this thread?
The entire thesis of the post was that there are real-world implications of what we see in CoH that are worth thinking about.
[ QUOTE ]
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I also despise bringing RL politics into the Cities.
[/ QUOTE ]
Especially in the player guides section of a game forum. This discussion is interesting and all, but it really doesn't belong here.
[/ QUOTE ]
I really couldnt think of a better place for a blog post. If you cna think of one Id be perfectly happy for the devs to move the forum.
I hoenstly hadn't expected it to devolve into a debate anda real-world political one at that, but maybe I should have....
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I think you're overlooking 2 huge things >.> honestly.
You bring up interesting points but:
1) CoH is a very simplistic game by nature. It's designed to be about combat; because combat to most people is the 'interesting' part.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. This is part of what I was saying about art being driven by society.
[ QUOTE ]
There are good people; and there are bad people; and CoH lets you easily see who the bad guys are; so you don't have to feel guilty when you smack them around.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is far less clear. The player's **assume** they are "the good guys", and thus *assume** anyone they are put against are "the bad guys" but there is no mission statement from the devs that this is so. Such comforting assumptions in the real world often lead to wars. This was my point about "adopting labels" in the original post.
The issue is further clouded by the introduction of CoV. Now you have players playing BOTH sides and, IMHO one of the more brilliant things abotu the game, is there is plenty of room for villaisn so inclined to argue that THEY are the real heroes. After all, America is sending shock troops (longbow and other ocassional heroes) into *their* country.
Whether a character is a "good guy" or not is also to some degree up to the players. I have a "hero" character who is a psyhco-killer who believes hes doing gods work. He plays *perfectly* in all the scenarios in CoH. I also have a villain character who is a totally comitted marxist working for the total equity of all people. She plays just fine in CoV. I know of many other nobly motoivated CoV heroes. (Ironicly more, IMHO then I do CoH heroes. Most CoH heroes are just doing what they are told because they ae told its right. I dont consider that terribly noble, personally.)
[ QUOTE ]
2) The much larger thing I think you're missing; is that the Super Hero genre is about wish fullfilment fantasy;
[/ QUOTE ]
No offense but pulp-crap is about wish fulfillment fasntasy. Good literature is about more. And the genre is irellevent. If you dont believe me read the Wild Cards series (particularly the later books), or almost any Alan Moore comic. Hell, even the X-men has something deeper to say if you really look at it.
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not about what's *truely* just or right; but rather what *FEELS* just and right.
[/ QUOTE ]
If it feels good, I must be right? Well isn't that heroic....
But what I think you are really saying is that some people want to live in their comfort zone of believeing whatever they do is right because some outside entity tells them so rather then thinking about right and wrong themselves. I certainly agree, and that brings us back to my central point about centralized authority v. personal responsability, no?
[ QUOTE ]
Real justice can be
[/ QUOTE ]
Real justice in all likelyhood does not exist, at least in the absolute sense. Certainly as soon as you mention the US justice system it becomes horribly, terribly flawed. But thats all the more reason, IMHO, that people *should* be critically thinking about what is and isnt just and trying to see it from multiple points of view.
[ QUOTE ]
Super Hero justice is different. Super hero justice means saying "I know who the enemy is, what they are doing to make my life and the lives of my countrymen/relatives/friends hell. So I'm going to do something about it." It's about taking control of a situation no real human can control. Is it truely just to pound a mugger into the pavement for taking someone's purse? Prolly not. But it *FEELS* good.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, I hope this isn't an offensive statement but I don't know how else to put it-- So does crack.
The problem I see here is twofold. From a roleplay perspective anything that is unrealistic breaks the immersion and stresses the sense of disbelief. I am playing real personalities with real thoughst and actions. Cramming their brains into such a limited a 2D world doesnt work.
Secondly, though, I am afraid that there ARE many people that DO believe that they can make such absolute good/evil and surface level distinctions in the real world. This was the bigger issue for the blog. Art, when it is real art and not just pablum, *can* inform life.
More directly to the point however, I am sorry, but if what you wanted was a simple game of "cops and robbers" where the cops are always right then the devs ruined it for you by creating CoV. There are now multiple player POVs in game on justice that are all equally "blessed" and you can't just wave it away. If you stay out of all shared areas though you might be able to close your eyes and ignore it if you really want to.
[ QUOTE ]
We can't do it in RL; so that's why we have superheroes in the first place. They let you avoid the complex and difficult world of real justice where you have to deal with due process and warrants; and instead get right to what feels good; SMACKING THE BADGUYS!
[/ QUOTE ]
Im sorry but to me what you are describing sounds like juvenile power-trip fantasy. Im looking a few levels deeper. Furthermore if you take the time to look at what you are labeling the "bad guys" in the game then the morality gets pretty murky pretty fast.
But if thats what you get out of the game and looking deeper just ruins it for you then Im sorry I made you think about it. Go and enjoy what it is you enjoy.
[ QUOTE ]
See what I mean? ^^ You are of course; entitled to your opinion. If I don't like it I'll just beat the snot out of you! <O.O> (Hey, I'm a villain! <,< (JK JK!)
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Nope, your an authoritarian "hero"... which in my book is the same thing 8)
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I think you're unable to make an impartial judgement as to what goes on because I think you harbor personal thoughts about war and freedom and have taken a side already, then based your in-game opinion on that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually you are 100% wrong.
My 43rd level controller believes she is 100% jsutified. She IS a fed and furthermore part of the goverment that has to protect the US from further alien attack. When i play her, I am in her head and have her belief.
My 20th level stalker is a fully comitted marxist revolutiuonary. She firmly believes in statements like "Cracking a safe is no crime at all, comapred to that of owning one." -- (Kurt Weil, "Happy Ending".) When I play her I am fully in HER head and totally believe she is in the right.
In reality, as a person? I believe that both are both right and wrong. Terry, my controller,. is so wrapped up in the safety side of the equation that she sees no problem in the government doign whatever it needs to in order to protect its ability to protect the people. In CQ's opion (me) thats wrong.
Alexa, the stalker, is so comitted to a dream of perfect socialist equity she is willing to kill anyone in its way without hesitation or remorese. CQ believes that is wrong as well.
(edit: Interestingly, and this is something I just noticed in talking about this, from CQ's POV they share a common fallacy-- both believe that the ends justify the means.)
[ QUOTE ]
Freedom simply means no rules, nothing holding you back, free. Absolute freedom is absolute chaos, more or less proved in CoV. Freedom needs boundaries, and they get defined daily by lawmakers. If you have just one law, you have lost total freedom. Ok so you need some laws, freedom is sacrificed for that. Thats pretty simple to understand.
[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed and that is central to thesis of the blog. The question is how much freedom is too much and how much safety is over-kill? Where is the line drawn? Its not a question with an easy answer and is something every citizen should think about.
CQ believes we are too far to the safety side right now in the US. Thats my opinion. You might well differ. But everyone should at least think about it and have a well considered position.
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Also, the need for registration of certain nationals is based on that country waging war against our own.
[/ QUOTE ]
Debatable, it depends on how you interpret the events of 9/11. If you see Al Qaeda as acting as covert operations arm of the Afganhi government then you can make that argument. Oterhwise *we*waged war on Afganhistan not the other way around. But infact the Special registration act eas much broader then just Afgahnis. I gave the link above.
[ QUOTE ]
Japan and Afghanistan (or representatives from that country)
[/ QUOTE ]
On Japan you are wrong because it was not Japanese nationals we interred. Its was *American Citizens* of Japanese descent.
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Your comparison with Germany and the Jews is not the same situation or for the same reason. Hitler declared war on a people and not a country. the Jews did not declare war on Hitler, thus prompting Germany to make Jews register.
[/ QUOTE ]
No two situatiosn are identical. But Hitler provclaimed (and FWIW i believe onsome level he beleived) that the Jews were a national security risk.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you had paid a bit more attention to your contacts when they give you missions you would understand that you are not a vigilante out beating up "a people" or faction that is merely associated with a terror group, but each has its specific reasoning for putting you on the case.
[/ QUOTE ]
No offense but this is orthogonal again to the point.
A policeman looking for a particualr member of a gang may NOT go out and brutalize all gang memebrs he finds until one talks. Not in our country. Not legally.
[ QUOTE ]
But I digress for the moments you need to "shake them down" with street hunting missions. But then again, I believe that some situations will require non law abiding means of confrontation. In other words, "use of force". Freedom does not mean the Hellions have a right to set a building on fire. With absolute freedom, yes, they would have a right to do that.
[/ QUOTE ]
And with absolute freedom anyoen else woudl have the right to stop them. Ironically, it is your "absolute freeedom" case that would make the actions of CoH heroes societally proper.
But as you say, there is not and should not be absolute freedom *for anyone*. And when there is not, then there are rules by which even those breaking the rules must be handled. And one is that people dont get beaten senseless for minor petty offsense such as breaking a car window or stealing a tire.
[ QUOTE ]
You've gone overboard, like many people do when they don't know how to control their own behavior and must rely on definitions and textbook laws in order to know the simplest thing... What is right and wrong?
[/ QUOTE ]
What si right and wnat is wrong is far from simpel my friend.. it maybe the msot complex thing there is. Read a few differeing poinst of view. Read Karl Marx, then read the federalist papers., then read some hisotry of the christian church.
You will find many many many different views that are all equally justifiable. And inthe real world, the answer is almost *never* whats is 'right" or "wrong" in such absolute terms but rather what is more right or more wrong. And even that is often hard to determine in any objective way.
Edit: It courred to me thsi might help lubricate the thinking. A very very simpl ethics problem to get you started.
(1) Is it right to kill someone for a loaf of bread?
<answer this, then answer the next question below>
(2) Is it right for a mn who is starving to death to steal a loaf of bread?
Ethics is mostly connundrums, Tovarisch 
First off: You come off as rather insulting. That really has no place in a serious debate; nor does your simple dismissing of my arguement with "I'm sorry I made you think about it."
That instantly assumes I *haven't* thought about it. I've played the game for a long time; yes, I have LONG thought of these various issues; the largest of which being for example: A group of Hellions just standing around. I leap over a fence and pummel them.
In reality; that's wrong. I think that's fairly easy to see as well.
However: While more modern comics may have shaken it (I don't know; I don't read western comics; I read manga); Older comic books very much were WISH FULFILMENT.
Look at old Superman, Captain America and the like. Tell me they were anything different than we are?
Also remember, at the very least we know our lead dev Statesman, was a huge fan of these *AND* a huge fan of Pulp (he's said as much).
Knowing these things; do you not think it's possible that CoH was never designed to be a serious literary endevour in the FIRST place?
That's what I'm trying to explain; and I appologize that I'm having trouble saying what I need to say.
CoH was not, nor will it ever, be designed to take the 'grimy' elements of RL into play. Why? First it's hard to program. And again; the devs, States in particular, have repeatedly mentioned they built the game to be about COMBAT. You just don't get nearly as much of that if you have to go get warrants, run investigations, etc... it just does not happen.
That is what I am trying to tell you. You're looking at it through the wrong lens; you're looking at it like a political scientist/novel critic (not a bad perspective for reality mind you), when CoH is frankly much more shallow than that.
You're trying to look through the bottom of the pool here; the game IS simplistic. (When was the last time you were able to hold a conversation with an NPC at all?)
The player cannot be held at all responsible for what is not programmed into the game. You have to take that into account when trying to figure out what COH is; it's a simple game, and thus does not deserve such intense scrutiny. While putting forth the time to think critically on something (I do truely applaud you for that; most people do not bother to use critical thinking skills in this modern world; many are what we can call 'sheeple' if you will); It just simple doesn't apply to CoH.
It's just too simply designed a game.
Also; again, I would enjoy the game even more if I had the options to handle all of those more in depth things real people would need to deal with. However; the tools are not at my disposal, and because of that, I will look at CoH for what it IS not what I want to see in it.
Basically you've attempted New Criticism on CoH now that I think of it. Ew... >.> Don't do that; reading what you want into something is a bad habit. You must look for an author's intent, or you won't be able to see the truth of the item in question; instead all you'll see is your own opinions, but assume them to be fact because there they are, laid out before you.
That's why in the case of serious literature, you do research. (In most cases, you spend alot of time with the Oxford English Dictionary, and looking at other works of the same authorship.
In the case of CoH, you could look up dev posts and see "What do these people intend this game to be."
Anyway, for now I'll leave it at that. Please try to be less insulting however; as other people on these forums are every bit as intelligent as you believe yourself to be.
Here's my take on this.
It cannot be questioned that what many people do as heroes in CoH is illegal.
The morality of those acts can be questioned, and that question can only be answered in the context of the individual character.
You may or may not be familiar with the "Citizen Crime Fighting" act that was passed in the CoH universe. Here. [ QUOTE ]
The Paragon City council and mayoral elections of 1936 swept a platform of pro-hero candidates that resulted in the passage of the Citizen Crime Fighting Act of 1937. This law made it legal for vigilantes to bring criminals to justice as long as they followed the same restrictions police officers use.
[/ QUOTE ]
Assuming that police officers' restrictions are not different in this world (and they may well be), unprovoked use of a broadsword on a 'citizen' is a Bad Thing. Of course, you don't have to make unprovoked attacks on "innocent" citizens...
If my Contact tells me to go out and "question" 25 Skulls, I can choose to go up to those Skulls and hit a keybind that says, "Excuse me gentlemen, can we please have a peaceful discussion?" If the Skulls attack (and such is likely) then my 'self defense' is justified. Of course, I could just run away, but I'll need to question those Skulls sooner or later.
But I have a lot of characters. Some of my heroes are morally wrong, in my opinion, while others are right. All of my villains are morally wrong in my opinion.
Apparently, the authorities turn a blind eye to many illegal activities rather than face the alternative: superpowered individuals breaking the law and terrorizing citizens without being opposed by superhuman deputies.
I suppose the authorities within Paragon City could choose to put wannabe heroes through training, screening, and enforce due process upon them. But that would leave them at a grave disadvantage against the Skulls, Hellions, et al while the hereoes went through school. They made the choice not to wait.
Now it's up to the individual hero to make their own choices, on a daily basis, about how to enforce the law and serve justice.
Now, since this is in the Player Guides section, how about working on a guide to roleplaying a 'morally correct' hero in Paragon City.
1) Before engaging villains in combat, use a keybind to identify yourself and call for cooperation.
2) Only use deadly force after a foe has threatened you with the same. Respond to fisticuffs in kind, only moving to dangerous attacks that do lethal, fire, or energy damage after being attacked with at least lethal damage.
3) If you see other heroes violating these rules, ask them if they are a roleplayer. If they are, upbraid them about their inappropriate actions in character and try to get them to repent. If of appropriate level, you may want to invite them to settle things in the Arena or Warburg.
Anything else? I'd love to hear from police officers out there. If a citizen were authorized to enforce the law while follwing the same restrictions you guys do (without actually being members of the police force per se), what would that entail?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Meh, today I stopped Nemesis from holding Earth hostage with a weather control device, then I broke into one of his labs and stole a "doomsday" device that was used to kill 70% of an alternate worlds population. After that, I traveled to this dead world and set up blockers preventing Nemesis from using it as a base of operations.
Afterwards, I took to the streets and arrested 45 Nemesis, the likes of which included a variety of robots, mechs, and armed paramilitary, all which fired upon me first. They all possessed illegal weapons, which included fully automatic weapons and chemical weapons. They also fired these weapons within 100 yards of a residence, and with civilian foot traffic nearby.
Then, my contact informed me that Nemesis had created automatons to infiltrate the Council (another illegal paramilitary group). I broke into that base as well, and took into custody all persons on the premise.
I fail to see where I did anything that is morally or legally a poor choice.
This is from my blog. I thought it might interest people here...
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Blog Title: What price safety? What price freedom?
As many of you who have read this blog for awhile know, I've played the Super-Hero MMOLRPG City of Heroes a great deal. At this point I have a 43rd level character. (Maximum level is 50.) The game is fun, but there are a few things that have always disturbed me about it. I'll talk more about that as I get into my thesis for today's blog.
Over the last 3 months or so I've been seriously playing the companion game City of Villains. While City of Heroes is set in an imaginary near-future America, City of Villains is set in the thoroughly imaginary setting of 'The Rouge Isles. There are elements of the Rouge Isles which suggest some of the eastern European former soviet states, but I could be stretching it to reach that as a conclusion. Really, they look most just like any generic mid to late 20th century heavily industrialized area.
The contrast between the two societies as presented however is an interesting one. Remember that I mentioned that there were things that disturbed me about City of Heroes? Well, part of the conceit of City of Heroes is that the US is recovering from a devastating war (with Aliens) and has instituted a degree of martial law. So called Super-Heroes are allowed fairly free reign, officially having full police authority but, since they use masks and secret identities, far less over-site or accountability.
As you play the game you have no choice but to take assignments that have you routinely hunting down and assaulting people on the streets merely for belonging to one group or another that is unpopular with the government. Sometimes these people are involved in petty crimes when you find them, such as vandalism or unruly behavior. Sometimes they ar just talking to others or making political speeches on street corners. In any event, the reason you are attacking them and beating them senseless always has nothing to do with their current behavior.
As you go up levels you will find even shadier assignments coming up, where you break into building and assault people based on hearsay and innuendo-- sometimes not even coming from any recognized governmental authority.
Thus is the job of a Hero in City of Heroes.
What then about City of Villains? The Rouge Isles as presented in City of Villains is a much less centrally ordered world, consisting of factions warring for power and control. As a villain your career is also dictated by the game, but you have more latitude with-in that career. The missions are more varied and one of the chief mission mechanisms, the newspaper, always gives you a choice among 3 different scenarios. (These scenarios age automatically generated from some standard templates so often are not as different as you might wish, but there is at least some illusion of choice.)
Furthermore, the your a hero so what you do is heroic easy out was not available to the designers of City of Villains, forcing them to think more about motivations of characters. The result is missions that are far less just following orders and far more based on trying to touch personal character motivations.
The result of all this is an interesting, if perhaps accidental, dichotomy. Hero characters tend to be mindless followers of the line provided them by their governmental and other contacts. They march in line to the beat of the same drum and take solace in believing they are heroic because the game calls them heroes. Among the villains, on a whole, you see much more individualism and thought about what really motivates them and why. In the end, City of Heroes/City of Villains really becomes less about comic book good v. comic book evil and more about centralized authority versus individual responsibility. As Heroes and Villains have neutral ground they can meet on, this sometimes leads to some fascinating debates.
There is no doubt that the America of City of Heroes is a safer place. When the people have to be afraid of their government and its secret-police. When any significantly large gathering of people can be attacked by those police simply for having views antithetical to the government, it tends to put a damper on things like street crime. But at what cost? When defending freedom means denying freedom to any part of your society, are you really defending it or destroying it?
In contrast the Rouge Isles is a much more open society. Groups are free to form and even to war with each other in the streets. The result is a chaotic society where, were this reality, there is no doubt that many innocent bystanders would be hurt or killed. Life is freer, but far less safe.
Which brings me to my real objective in blogging on all this. Given the lead time in game development I suspect the applicability of the situation I described above to today's political issues was more accidental then designed, but it is striking none the less. Our America of today has swung far to the safety side of this perhaps fundamental equation. At the price of many freedoms. Those of non-Caucasian descent are more and more being asked to prove their citizenship and loyalty. We have just gone through a period of ethnic registration all people from Afghanistan in this country, even legal citizens, were made to register with the government. From my history classes, the last time I can think of such a thing occurring it was Jews in Nazi Germany. I know of no time in the history of the land of the free where we have made such distinctions based on birth origin before.
EDIT: My wife correctly points out that there was another time in this country. The last time was during WW2, the people registered werethose of Japanese descent, and the reason given again was "protecting" us from our fellow citizens in a "time of war."
This and much more the government has justified to us based on making us safer, just like the world of City of Heroes is safer and the heroes therein pride themselves on keeping it that way.
But how much freedom is this safety costing us and can we afford to pay the price? Conversely, how much freedom as a society can we handle without descending into the chaos in the streets of City of Villains?
This is an important and fundamental question. To my mind it is not being asked enough today. Too may people, like the players of City of Heroes, simply latch onto a word such as hero or freedom and, because they use it to describe themselves and those around them, tacitly assume it to be true. But freedom is not a matter of words. It is a matter of actions and consequences. It is not something that can be assumed but something that must be fought for and defended -- most often from those who use the word the freest.
At its best, Roleplay allows us to see the world from new perspectives and think about other points of view. I would suggest anyone with the interest try playing City of Villains with noble motives and goals. Try playing City of Heroes with a consciously self-centered set of motivations. Then ask yourself if hero or villain is really as separable and definable as demagogues the world over would have you believe.