Patron Powers: Ghost Widow - Soul Mastery
By
5th_Player,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 24:37 in Developers' Corner
I do have to say that I'm not seeing them be anything I would consider "more powerful". Scarlet's analysis indicated for one power that it was 5% more damaging, proportionally, but that's pretty meaningless, IMO, even if that holds true across the board. Among other things, Heroes tend to have higher base damage than comparable Villain ATs, so that's going to be a net loss.
I bascially have chosen to ignore that statement about "more powerful," because I think it represents an idea of the utility for these powers that isn't likely to be considered useful by the general gaming population.
Assume for a second that the pets really rock (and they might). They still are going to have, at best, around a 50% downtime. Lots of people are going to dislike that compared to something less flashy that's more utilitarian and less conditional. Such as an anti-mez toggle on a Dominator.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I do have to say that I'm not seeing them be anything I would consider "more powerful". Scarlet's analysis indicated for one power that it was 5% more damaging, proportionally, but that's pretty meaningless, IMO, even if that holds true across the board. Among other things, Heroes tend to have higher base damage than comparable Villain ATs, so that's going to be a net loss.
I bascially have chosen to ignore that statement about "more powerful," because I think it represents an idea of the utility for these powers that isn't likely to be considered useful by the general gaming population.
Assume for a second that the pets really rock (and they might). They still are going to have, at best, around a 50% downtime. Lots of people are going to dislike that compared to something less flashy that's more utilitarian and less conditional. Such as an anti-mez toggle on a Dominator.
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But the PPPs ARE demonstrably better. Scarlet proved it (in at least one case). You might want it to be EVEN better, and I won't claim that such a desire is irrational, but you can't say they're NOT better. They are.
Further, whether Villains are powerful enough at level 50 is a seperate issue. If we're not, we don't need overcharged PPPs, but a more profound, base change to our characters.
And as a Dominator, I can tell you not to underestimate the power of a pocket nuke. Having a pet that you sit on and only summon when you need (like, say, the end fight or against a large group of Heroes) is quite an advantage. Don't dismiss it.
Though PERSONALLY, I'd rather have the pets reduced in power and made permanent, like any other pet. I suppose the reason they chose not to do this was to avoid the much-complained-about nightmare scenario of EVERYONE being a mastermind and a team of 8 fielding something like 8- 20 additional pets O.O Can you imagine trying to navigate that swarm?
So the long recharge prevents everyone from dragging their pet through the whole mission at least, so I can see the benefit of that, even if I'd prefer having my Fortunata with me at all times *nods*
Oh, don't get me wrong. If we have, say, a 5% better damage scale than the equivalent powers in an EPP, I won't argue that it's not technically better. I might argue, however, that such a degree of superiority is pointless.
I do reserve judgement until I see the pets. Honestly, unless the pets suck I see them being very, very useful in PvE. Of course, getting it at 47 doesn't leave much of a career for it to be useful for. I do have a hard time seeing the pets be useful in open zone PvP. They might be useful in base raids or the Arena.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
you are correct i am refering to just the master mind power set for the partrom power if you read (just the mastermind set i didnt look at the otheres) you will notice that for all the other fianl power you only need one other in the set to get but for ghost widows you need 2. I was wandering why GW's was harder to get.
UberGuy-
I believe you are trying to be the devils advocate here, because some of your arguments sound quite crazy.
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Do you realize that FA is not the only way to get toHit buffs? One Corruptor or MM on your team with 3-slotted Tactics is the equivalent of unslotted FA for everyone on the team. Two such characters is better than fully slotted FA.
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In their EPPs, neither do the heroes. Not in a team setting. PvP is about teaming. Period. All comments that relate to one-on-one are automatically null. Everything among the ATs and powersets is rock-paper-scissors.
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What exactly are you trying to point out here? That holes can be filled by other classes? Boy did you pick the wrong subject to argue.
Yea... having a corruptor along would help... of course, what if the hero's team has a defender? (Even teams correct? can't just add another person to the equation without balancing it out) Oh my! We are back to where we started (actually a little behind because on the hero's side they have stronger buffs) and the hero still has that extra acc because (doot de dooo!!!) villians can't do it for themselves.
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In a number of these sets you find Conserve Power. This is a fantastic but conditional power.
In both Scrapper and Tanker sets you also find Focused Accuracy. It should be noted that for everyone but /Regen Scrappers, this is effectively a conditional power. It is among the most expensive toggles in the game, clocking in at almost 5 times the cost of a standard armor toggle.
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I notice you keep stating about these being conditional powers. Please understand that conditional powers are the powers that make or break PvP.
Since it is your choice when and where you want to fight, you can always make sure the *conditional* power is under the correct *conditions* insuring a win. (barring stupidity or an act of god)
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However, if you can evade or otherwise survive most of these powers for 10 or 20 seconds, they expire.
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Have you ever PvP'd before? Most battles are over in under 20 seconds, and certainly in group battles you can not simply run away when someone hits build up. (that would be hilarious to watch though, a group of villains scatter when 1 hero uses his *conditional* power) because *someone* in the opposing group will always have it ready to go.
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Imagine a blaster, he takes aid self. He's fighting, things go south, he pops PFF, hits aid self, then turns it off.
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You can do the same thing with Phase Shift.
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Uhm... Yea, in the same extent that you can do the same thing with slash as you can do with headsplitter. (They both do damage but one is vastly superior to the other)
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What exactly are you trying to point out here? That holes can be filled by other classes? Boy did you pick the wrong subject to argue.
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Huh?
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Yea... having a corruptor along would help... of course, what if the hero's team has a defender? (Even teams correct? can't just add another person to the equation without balancing it out) Oh my! We are back to where we started (actually a little behind because on the hero's side they have stronger buffs) and the hero still has that extra acc because (doot de dooo!!!) villians can't do it for themselves.
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The point is that only so much accuracy matters. All you need is enough to do is overcome their +defense, and you can do that just as well as they can if you have such team buffs in play. In fact, more of you will do it that they can, at lower cost to your team, than if a bunch of them are running FA.
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In a number of these sets you find Conserve Power. This is a fantastic but conditional power.
In both Scrapper and Tanker sets you also find Focused Accuracy. It should be noted that for everyone but /Regen Scrappers, this is effectively a conditional power. It is among the most expensive toggles in the game, clocking in at almost 5 times the cost of a standard armor toggle.
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I notice you keep stating about these being conditional powers. Please understand that conditional powers are the powers that make or break PvP.
Since it is your choice when and where you want to fight, you can always make sure the *conditional* power is under the correct *conditions* insuring a win. (barring stupidity or an act of god)
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All PvP is not Siren's call or even Recluse's Victory. You don't get to chose when everything happens in a Base Raid or in the Arena.
Also, the notion that everyone will retreat when their rocking powers are offline is ludicrous. If everyone does that then ultimately we will be disallowed all conditional powers, or we'll all be dissalowed to leave PvP once we enter. 
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However, if you can evade or otherwise survive most of these powers for 10 or 20 seconds, they expire.
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Have you ever PvP'd before? Most battles are over in under 20 seconds, and certainly in group battles you can not simply run away when someone hits build up. (that would be hilarious to watch though, a group of villains scatter when 1 hero uses his *conditional* power) because *someone* in the opposing group will always have it ready to go.
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Yes, I have. Perhaps you ignored the "or otherwise survive" part of that sentence. In a team context something like Power Build Up or PFF alone is not going to turn the tide of most battles except by possibly allowing the one key person to live or be defeated. These are far, far, far from "I win" buttons. I know. I've used them. I've had them used on me. They're nice to have. They don't carry the day.
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Uhm... Yea, in the same extent that you can do the same thing with slash as you can do with headsplitter. (They both do damage but one is vastly superior to the other)
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I don't see this PFF superiority, honestly, but if it's that great it'll probably end up nerfed. Nobody I've ever faced used PFF to win a fight, and it certainly didn't do anyone jack in a team battle except for some MMs, who now can't use it like that at all in I7.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
For those of you who are dissatisfied with the amount of hard numbers given to us by the devs about these powers, here are some of the numbers I've collected:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Power Dark Dark Gloom Soul Moonbea Soul Night Dark Dark Soul
Embrace Blast Storm Tentacl Fall Consump Obliter Drain
BaseAcc 1 1 1 1 1.2 1 1 1 1 1.2
Target single single single single single cone cone AoE AoE AoE
MaxTrgt 0 0 0 0 0 10 10 10 16 7
Radius 0 0 0 0 0 40 60 8 15 10
Angle 0 0 0 0 0 25 20 0 0 0
Range 0 80 80 80 150 40 60 0 80 0
Activat 0.67 1 1.1 2.17 7.33 1.67 2 1.03 1 2.37
Recharg 4 6 12 32 24 20 20 360 32 240
s/Tick 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
EndCost 0.1625 6.5 10.66 10.66 17.94 12.74 16.38 0.65 18.98 19.5
Interup 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 0 0 0
Enhance resdam endredu endredu hold interup endredu endredu endmod endredu endredu
endredu range range endredu endredu range range taunt range recharg
recharg recharg recharg range range recharg recharg recharg recharg damage
hitdbuf hitdbuf recharg recharg immobil hitdbuf damage hitdbuf hitbuff
damage damage damage hitdbuf damage damage accurac damage accurac
accurac accurac accurac damage accurac accurac accurac
accurac
Power Summon Summon Summon Summon
Widow Mistres Seer Widow
(Brute) (Stalk)
BaseAcc 1 1 1 1
Target Summon Summon Summon Summon
Range 60 60 60 60
Activat 3.2 3.2 3.2 3.2
Recharg 900 900 900 900
EndCost 26 26 26 26
Enhance endredu endredu endredu endredu
range range range range
damage stun immobil hitdbuf
accurac sleep damage damage
knockbk accurac accurac
immobil
damage
accurac</pre><hr />
I'll soon be posting the numbers I have for each pet's individual powers.
NOTE: Before you ask--yes, what I've shown here states that recharge enhancements are NOT allowed in the 15 minute recharge pet powers.
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Not to mention I believe a red name actually confirmed the Recharge formula, but I can't recall the thread now. The main reason I actually remember is because someone then asked if we could get the formula they use to calculate Damage Scale and they said no, it was too complicated and used a lot of subjective values.
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Geko mentioned the recharge/damage scale relationship in the "Ask Geko" thread some time back.
All powers in the game exist in an Excel spreadsheet which is then translated into the game files somehow (presumably Cryptic wrote a custom tool for this). Things like the recharge/damage scale equation are computed in Excel and not on the servers or the client, so the game designer has an opportunity to modify it if he so chooses. For instance, all Fire powers with a DoT do over scale damage and powers with a status effect often incur a damage penalty (Knockout Blow and Midnight Grasp).
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and powers with a status effect often incur a damage penalty (Knockout Blow and Midnight Grasp).
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like the EM powers - I think I understand. 
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NOTE: Before you ask--yes, what I've shown here states that recharge enhancements are NOT allowed in the 15 minute recharge pet powers.
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This last statement is very telling. If anything, it strongly suggests that the PPP pets come with a full range of attacks- equal to what you'd see as if you were fighting against them. Their use would clearly then be situational, for example, summoning one so as to help in defeating an AV or Hero. The duration/recharge ratio only underscores this, and when you throw in the fact that you can't slot recharges, it becomes clear that the devs felt it would be against the grain in regards to game balance if they were available more often. Or the info given to us could very well be wrong.
That's just my 2 cents. Of course, the jury is still out until someone reaches level 47 so as to obtain the pet for testing (barring a level bump given out by Cryptic.)
Regarding the missions for Ghost Widow...
Yesterday I petitioned the first soul crystal ceremony because I cleared the entire map (including portals) and mapped everything and nothing ever happened and I could not click on the neat-looking crystal thing. I got an email today and sure enough, the mission had been cleared.
Of course, I continue on with the storyline (which took a DRASTICALLY stupid and forced turn that I won't spoil here)... until I got to another Oranbega mission. Cleared the entire map, clicked on glowie... fought two ~foes~ (don't want to ID them or spoil it) that were +3 minions... this was on VILLAINOUS, by the way. Plus THREE minions, on villainous. That got bugged, you can bet.
After I took care of them, I expected to have to fight an Elite Boss that would smear my guts across the walls in 0.43 seconds..... but nothing happened. So I petitioned again.
In Broadcast in Grandville I heard someone say that AFTER that second mission that requires a petition to be cleared, the others progress normally. We'll see...
Unless the story changes drastically in the future missions, though, I am SEVERELY disappointed with the power-posing that our characters are forced into. Bad enough we had to choose ONE 'patron' for whom to become a toadie... but then things get WORSE. Sigh. It's SO much easier on the hero side.
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NOTE: Before you ask--yes, what I've shown here states that recharge enhancements are NOT allowed in the 15 minute recharge pet powers.
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Supremely dissapointing.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Thought I'd add this gem...
There are a total of two parts of the Ghost Widow arc where you simply cannot complete the mission and it must be cleared. GM told me that they knew about that bug.
I just found what MUST be another one.
In the "Kidnap Dr. Crowe" mission which is set in the Portal Corp area of Peregrine Island, there are TONS of inappropriately-leveled foes.
In particular, on Villainous setting my level 41 Brute faced level 46 PPD Quantums and Transcendants. That's just wrong.
I actually managed to beat the one I found out in the 'yard' with some +0 minions... I had about a half-dozen Arachnos troops helping me and we finally beat him down. Then he REZZED HIMSELF. Sent me to the hospital quick-like, then dispatched all the Arachnos guys.
Sidenote: the hospital in Peregrine Island is ~outside~ the mission force fields so I had to use the /stuck command to get back into the mission (put me at an elevator inside the middle building).
I'm presently waiting inside the mission for a GM to clear it. I know Ghost Widow said that I would probably need help... but I seriously doubt it was supposed to have +5 level LTs throughout when presumably one would be doing this mission at level 40 / 41 or so.
It is starting to look as if we may NEVER get a glimpse of the upper two Ghost Widow powers unless we get a level bump and a free storyarc pass. 
Any word on the soul crystal bugs.
Does every single person that this happens too need to report it are the first 15 thousand good enough?
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Reference for Brutes..
Gloom
* Unenhanced damage @ lvl 40: 44 (N. Energy, DoT)
* Foe -ACC
* Range: 80
* END: 11
* Recharge: 12 secs
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~ Brawl Damage ? Corruptor Gloom should be doing ~180 @ L40 and costs 8.5 Endurance. So 20% the damage and 130% the cost ? aka, Freaking Brawl damage and costs 11 endurance. What IS the point ?
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Do NOT use Brawl numbers here. They will be HORRIBLY wrong. Brawl Indicies DO NOT WORK for Patron OR Epic powers. See my post here.
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so i dont use brawl numbers. it still only does twice the dmg of my brawl. it's crap
It's (near) identical crap to what a Scrapper gets with Dark Mastery.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Why do all the villains patrons powers suck?
hence why most take body mastery
anyone get to 50 yet? I am very curious to see how the pets play out in this thing?
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Reference for Brutes..
Gloom
* Unenhanced damage @ lvl 40: 44 (N. Energy, DoT)
* Foe -ACC
* Range: 80
* END: 11
* Recharge: 12 secs
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~ Brawl Damage ? Corruptor Gloom should be doing ~180 @ L40 and costs 8.5 Endurance. So 20% the damage and 130% the cost ? aka, Freaking Brawl damage and costs 11 endurance. What IS the point ?
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Do NOT use Brawl numbers here. They will be HORRIBLY wrong. Brawl Indicies DO NOT WORK for Patron OR Epic powers. See my post here.
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so i dont use brawl numbers. it still only does twice the dmg of my brawl. it's crap
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Yeah, Brutes "naturally" do 33% less damage on our ranged attacks when compared to our melee.
Repeat Offenders
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NOTE: Before you ask--yes, what I've shown here states that recharge enhancements are NOT allowed in the 15 minute recharge pet powers.
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Supremely dissapointing.
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I 2nd this... I was hopeing to cut the downtime big time with recharge SO's and hasten. In pvp and pve I have a /kin friend that I play with all the time so SB and Hasten will have to do. Even if this Mistress owns with PSI damage and me being a /therm thats still a long time... 
. Great info tho....thx.
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Reference for Brutes..
Gloom
* Unenhanced damage @ lvl 40: 44 (N. Energy, DoT)
* Foe -ACC
* Range: 80
* END: 11
* Recharge: 12 secs
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~ Brawl Damage ? Corruptor Gloom should be doing ~180 @ L40 and costs 8.5 Endurance. So 20% the damage and 130% the cost ? aka, Freaking Brawl damage and costs 11 endurance. What IS the point ?
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Do NOT use Brawl numbers here. They will be HORRIBLY wrong. Brawl Indicies DO NOT WORK for Patron OR Epic powers. See my post here.
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so i dont use brawl numbers. it still only does twice the dmg of my brawl. it's crap
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Yeah, Brutes "naturally" do 33% less damage on our ranged attacks when compared to our melee.
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I'm going on 4 hrs of sleep here, but isn't that near 5x Brawl (ranged comparison)?
Repeat Offenders
The base Brawl damage for a L40 Brute is about 13.775. So 44/13.775 is about 3.2.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Scarlet, can you run that analysis on the Scrapper/Dark Mastery/Dark Blast power and see how it compares with, say, the Defender version?
According to Castle, the EPPs are supposed to have equivalent faults, and we should be comparing the PPPs directly to EPP powers (or at least viewing how PPPs and CoV primary powers compare in light of how EPPs and CoH primary powers compare, when direct comparisons are not available).
Edit: Note that Castle reports that all EPPs on melee characters also use the AT ranged damage tables.
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The problem is that if we are comparing equally to the hero APP's we have been mislead. The QA says that our PPP's should be stronger than the equivalent APP's to compensate for the lack of variety and them being perma.
If all we get is a copy of all the bad versions of the APP's then what's the point? I'd take dull Pain if it was offered over any of these from the the testing I've seen from the leviathon pool.
Let me take a 5th normal power pool it would be a better investment.