OMG Tanker stealth "nerf" in latest patch!!
By
Amazing_Photon,
Posted on: 2006-04-11 18:34 in Tankers
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It looks like the devs finally figured out how to count to one. 
Single target attacks now hit only one target no matter how many you have stacked.
There might be a bug though. A couple times when I had a few stacked up, it would say "Readying attack", but then nothing. No hit, no miss, no nothing. Cone/AoE attacks worked fine there, but single target wouldn't do anything. I'll have to play with it some more and see what's going on.
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I think I may cry. I'll have QA test it.
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Castle, could you please please please have someone take a look at gauntlet. When the AOE bug was on test, I noticed that most of my lower attacks would rarely hit more than one target when they were spaced in a normal spawn (I tested in PP, where the spawns are large, packed groups). Even KO Blow would only hit 2-3 targets in a normal spawn. We were kind of assuming that the AOE bug was related to gauntlet, and that it sort of represented how many targets would be hit with the punchvoke effect in normal circumstances. If that is actually the case, then the radius on gauntlet is way too small and is only really effective if you can stack enemies by corner pulling. Gauntlet also did not appear to be active on any attacks outside of secondary powers, including brawl and tanker APP powers (based on a lack of AOEs from those powers on the bugged test). We've always kind of assumed that guantlet works on any attack from a tanker.
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Did we ever test the power pools also? I don't have have test (not enough room on my computer) so I never tested it myself.
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I think I may cry. I'll have QA test it.
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Remind them to install the purple patch before they test.
Jeez, give the man a rest.
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I think I may cry. I'll have QA test it.
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Remind them to install the purple patch before they test.
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Ouch!
I think _Castle_ has more than made up for that particular oversight in the last year of dedicated service to the CoX community.
I'm keeping it in my back pocket for the next time, though 
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It looks like the devs finally figured out how to count to one.
Single target attacks now hit only one target no matter how many you have stacked.
There might be a bug though. A couple times when I had a few stacked up, it would say "Readying attack", but then nothing. No hit, no miss, no nothing. Cone/AoE attacks worked fine there, but single target wouldn't do anything. I'll have to play with it some more and see what's going on.
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I think I may cry. I'll have QA test it.
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Well don't cry too much, I haven't been able to reproduce it yet. So far I only have had it happen twice on one mission (times several attacks per instance).
It happened on the big outdoor old burned out city map with the timed wolves mission, click 20 glowies given by Unai. Trying to reproduce the problem on the same mission is now impossible for me 
I herded up my 17 wolves, pulled around the corner of a rail car and stacked them up at the corner. Every single target attack aimed at the stack didn't fire at all, but the cones and PBAoEs all worked fine. If I turned and hit a wolve that wasn't in the stack it worked fine, but nothing would happen at the stack. There were probably ten or so in the stack. I didn't notice if there was end burn or anything other than seeing the one "Readying attack..." message in the log for each attack and nothing else. Other than the two times I would do the exact same thing and it worked just fine, so it may be a hard to reproduce positional thing.
Otherwise, this "nerf" does exactly what it should. We tankers are no longer overpowered killing machines able to kill at up to five times the rate "intended" by the devs, but cute fuzzy little bunnies who can't hurt a fly.
I'm also impressed (seriously) that the single target attack is hitting (or missing) the mob I targeted. Before it would occasionally hit five mobs in the stack, not including the one I had targeted. Perhaps that means that "taunt" might be fixed so that it always taunts the mob targeted... I hope.
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It looks like the devs finally figured out how to count to one.
Single target attacks now hit only one target no matter how many you have stacked.
There might be a bug though. A couple times when I had a few stacked up, it would say "Readying attack", but then nothing. No hit, no miss, no nothing. Cone/AoE attacks worked fine there, but single target wouldn't do anything. I'll have to play with it some more and see what's going on.
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I think I may cry. I'll have QA test it.
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Awww. We broke him
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[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
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Well, we found (and fixed) a problem with guantlet and destructable objects today. Not sure if that addresses this specific issue, but there it is. One step closer.
i'm a stacking fool! but i never paid attention to the fact that my single attacks were doing multiple attacks. it wasn't brought to my attention until it was put up on the test notes.
so all this time, i didn't even know it. and now i feel i was let down by something. if i'd know before, i might have used my single attacks more.... but i didn't. i just thought the stack was a cosmetic thing. just really cool to look at. i guess that's all it is now.
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Outcast Cooler - "Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't."
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Well, we found (and fixed) a problem with guantlet and destructable objects today. Not sure if that addresses this specific issue, but there it is. One step closer.
[/ QUOTE ]*Sigh* Always one step closer, but never we never cross the finish line.
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
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More info for you castle. I was on a low level defender last night. used a snipe attack. I got no miss or hit confirmation. The power activated and I saw the animation and nothing... Never saw anything like it before. Sounds like a similar problem.
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
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I am really confused. What are you guys talking about? It sounds like there are complaints over a single target attack because it is not doing damage to more than one target. If it is a single target attack, shouldn't it only damage one target? Maybe I'm just confused.
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More info for you castle. I was on a low level defender last night. used a snipe attack. I got no miss or hit confirmation. The power activated and I saw the animation and nothing... Never saw anything like it before. Sounds like a similar problem.
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Someone over in the Dominator's forum mentioned something similar happening with Ice Sword Circle. Hmm ....
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I am really confused. What are you guys talking about? It sounds like there are complaints over a single target attack because it is not doing damage to more than one target. If it is a single target attack, shouldn't it only damage one target? Maybe I'm just confused.
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One of the "features" of being a tanker was that we were able to herd so many mobs that they could stack one on top of the other in the same space (e.g. dumpster diving, corner pulling). Other ATs couldn't typically do this due to the danger involved.
Once mobs were in a nice stack of, say 100 or so, a weakness in the attack system let you use a single target attack to hit *every* one of them, and dispatch all 100 in the time it would take to do a couple mobs. This is really the origin of the uber tank, not so much the defenses involved, which were subsequently nerfed to no real effect on herding.
So then the nerfs to AoEs, PBAoEs, aggro, etc., came about, and they fixed the problem somewhat such that single target attacks could only hit up to 5, but still you could herd 17 and dispatch them in the time it normally took you to do 3 or 4.
With the latest patch, single target attacks now finally hit only one (or not).
And so we are all connnected in the great Circle of Nerfs.
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It looks like the devs finally figured out how to count to one.
Single target attacks now hit only one target no matter how many you have stacked.
There might be a bug though. A couple times when I had a few stacked up, it would say "Readying attack", but then nothing. No hit, no miss, no nothing. Cone/AoE attacks worked fine there, but single target wouldn't do anything. I'll have to play with it some more and see what's going on.
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I think I may cry. I'll have QA test it.
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Castle, could you please please please have someone take a look at gauntlet. When the AOE bug was on test, I noticed that most of my lower attacks would rarely hit more than one target when they were spaced in a normal spawn (I tested in PP, where the spawns are large, packed groups). Even KO Blow would only hit 2-3 targets in a normal spawn. We were kind of assuming that the AOE bug was related to gauntlet, and that it sort of represented how many targets would be hit with the punchvoke effect in normal circumstances. If that is actually the case, then the radius on gauntlet is way too small and is only really effective if you can stack enemies by corner pulling. Gauntlet also did not appear to be active on any attacks outside of secondary powers, including brawl and tanker APP powers (based on a lack of AOEs from those powers on the bugged test). We've always kind of assumed that guantlet works on any attack from a tanker.
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The punchvoke radius varies by power. Low level powers have a much smaller radius than level 38 powers. For instance, Total Focus, Knockout Blow, and Seismic Smash all have a radius of 17.8 feet; while Barrage and Jab have a radius of 3.4 feet.
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That's the way it appeared to be working, powers that do more damage had a larger 'punchvoke' radius...which basically means gauntlet is only working effectively on high damage powers in the tanker secondary. There is no gauntlet on epic powes and the radius is so small on lower damage powers that it's effectively doing nothing (unless you're stacking mobs) other than adding some additional taunt to the single mob you're hitting.
The radius on the 1st tier attack power should be large enough to hit 5 mobs as they are spaced in a normal spawn. Bump up the base radius and reduce the multiplier...and make gauntlet work for the APPs, pool powers, and brawl if possible.
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
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I am really confused. What are you guys talking about? It sounds like there are complaints over a single target attack because it is not doing damage to more than one target. If it is a single target attack, shouldn't it only damage one target? Maybe I'm just confused.
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A little confused. the attack does nothing. It doesn't register as a hit or a miss. it should hit or miss something.
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
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Will the Gauntlet bugs never cease?
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The problem is, someone says "Fix the Gauntlet Bugs!", then all the code for Gauntlet is looked at, but Punch-voke bugs remain. Then someone says "Fix the Punch-voke bugs!", and those fixes break Gauntlet again.
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I am really confused. What are you guys talking about? It sounds like there are complaints over a single target attack because it is not doing damage to more than one target. If it is a single target attack, shouldn't it only damage one target? Maybe I'm just confused.
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One of the "features" of being a tanker was that we were able to herd so many mobs that they could stack one on top of the other in the same space (e.g. dumpster diving, corner pulling). Other ATs couldn't typically do this due to the danger involved.
Once mobs were in a nice stack of, say 100 or so, a weakness in the attack system let you use a single target attack to hit *every* one of them, and dispatch all 100 in the time it would take to do a couple mobs. This is really the origin of the uber tank, not so much the defenses involved, which were subsequently nerfed to no real effect on herding.
So then the nerfs to AoEs, PBAoEs, aggro, etc., came about, and they fixed the problem somewhat such that single target attacks could only hit up to 5, but still you could herd 17 and dispatch them in the time it normally took you to do 3 or 4.
With the latest patch, single target attacks now finally hit only one (or not).
And so we are all connnected in the great Circle of Nerfs.
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And now my question is, since they have finally fixed a bug that has been in the game for more than 2 years, can we get our aggro control back? The AoE limits will still be in effect, so power leveling will not get any better, but we could actually do something useful on a large team again by keeping the attention of the mobs.
Yeah, I know, fat chance of that happening. 
Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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It looks like the devs finally figured out how to count to one.
Single target attacks now hit only one target no matter how many you have stacked.
There might be a bug though. A couple times when I had a few stacked up, it would say "Readying attack", but then nothing. No hit, no miss, no nothing. Cone/AoE attacks worked fine there, but single target wouldn't do anything. I'll have to play with it some more and see what's going on.
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Strange. I was in a mission today with my tank, herding and stacking, and using KO Blow on the stacks. It worked every time. Although I have noticed in the past that Jab and Punch don't work on stacks nearly as well as Haymaker and KO Blow.
The mission was one of those level 50 'Close the Portals' with the Council as the enemy.
"If I were two-faced, would I be wearing this one?"
- Abraham Lincoln
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It looks like the devs finally figured out how to count to one.
Single target attacks now hit only one target no matter how many you have stacked.
There might be a bug though. A couple times when I had a few stacked up, it would say "Readying attack", but then nothing. No hit, no miss, no nothing. Cone/AoE attacks worked fine there, but single target wouldn't do anything. I'll have to play with it some more and see what's going on.
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Strange. I was in a mission today with my tank, herding and stacking, and using KO Blow on the stacks. It worked every time. Although I have noticed in the past that Jab and Punch don't work on stacks nearly as well as Haymaker and KO Blow.
The mission was one of those level 50 'Close the Portals' with the Council as the enemy.
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What do you mean by "worked"? Were you hitting multiple targets with those attacks or were you just hitting/missing one target every time?
The patch they put in removes multiple hits on stacked targets with single target attacks. The bug I ran into only happend two times in one mission, so it seems to be quite rare.
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Hmm, so instead of the possibility of hitting more then one with a single target attack on a stacked mob, we now have the possibility to hit less then one... 
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Well doesnt that mean that in another 2 years it should settle right into the middle and be correct? come one people its progress, the glass is half full now folks!!!
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It looks like the devs finally figured out how to count to one.
Single target attacks now hit only one target no matter how many you have stacked.
There might be a bug though. A couple times when I had a few stacked up, it would say "Readying attack", but then nothing. No hit, no miss, no nothing. Cone/AoE attacks worked fine there, but single target wouldn't do anything. I'll have to play with it some more and see what's going on.
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I think I may cry. I'll have QA test it.
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Give me access to internal servers and I'll test it this Friday.
I promise not to touch anything else.
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I pity The Foo.
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I CRUSH YOU.
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Well, we found (and fixed) a problem with guantlet and destructable objects today. Not sure if that addresses this specific issue, but there it is. One step closer.
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Mmm, destructible objects...
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More info for you castle. I was on a low level defender last night. used a snipe attack. I got no miss or hit confirmation. The power activated and I saw the animation and nothing... Never saw anything like it before. Sounds like a similar problem.
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Someone over in the Dominator's forum mentioned something similar happening with Ice Sword Circle. Hmm ....
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This happens all the time with snipe on my blaster if the target breaks LOS during the inerruptible phase. My toon goes through the animation of shooting, but nothing actually shoots out (energy blaster). So the attack never really happens, hence no hit or miss. Is this what you're referring to?
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It looks like the devs finally figured out how to count to one.
Single target attacks now hit only one target no matter how many you have stacked.
There might be a bug though. A couple times when I had a few stacked up, it would say "Readying attack", but then nothing. No hit, no miss, no nothing. Cone/AoE attacks worked fine there, but single target wouldn't do anything. I'll have to play with it some more and see what's going on.
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I think I may cry. I'll have QA test it.
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lol.
Next patch: Single target Tankers attacks will work but taunt the tanker forcing him to hit himself repeatedly.
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Stop hitting yourself!
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It looks like the devs finally figured out how to count to one.
Single target attacks now hit only one target no matter how many you have stacked.
There might be a bug though. A couple times when I had a few stacked up, it would say "Readying attack", but then nothing. No hit, no miss, no nothing. Cone/AoE attacks worked fine there, but single target wouldn't do anything. I'll have to play with it some more and see what's going on.
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I think I may cry. I'll have QA test it.
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Give me access to internal servers and I'll test it this Friday.
I promise not to touch anything else.
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I pity The Foo.