DOOOOOOM Patch Live

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If the pattern is too hard to discern, or the mechanic of learning the pattern too difficult, players get frustrated and stop playing. On the other hand, if players understand the pattern and master the mechanic too easily, they'll quickly become bored and stop playing. There are other issues as well (relevancy, matching expectations, presentation, etc.) that come into play."

Part of the developer tightrope is walking that line between too easy and too hard.

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I have never made the accusation that the Devs were “Dimwits” as you put it. As a matter of fact I have high regard for what they have brought to these games and that” tightrope” they have to walk.

If anything I feel they are a bit more on the patronizing side then anything else in the way they approach these changes. Much like an angry parent would walk in to a teenager’s room and turn down your stereo. I can hear the mother now, “When I gave you that Hasten skill, I didn’t mean for you to 6 slot it and have it on all the time! Who do you think you are and you forget who incharge here! Just for that you’re going to lose the privilege of having it on constantly, young man”

Now the cool Dad approach would be, “ So you want to 6 slot hasten and have it on all the time, Well how do you like these apples!" and through tougher content at me or tougher villains. (Not just bosses) That is a challenge. I would rather see certain maps where certain skill were nullified or deminished on a temp basis, then perment reduction. That is creativity and not "You just cant have it anymore"

I don’t think anyone here will disagree with me that when you build a character from level 1 to level 50 over a number of months, all the step alone the way, all the weighing of skill you pick up, slots you place, error you make and strategies you develop. It in some ways becomes a part of you. To have his/ her make up changed by changing the rules after all the time you spent on it, is just plain wrong.

For those who made the comparison of this to a GM in a RPG, I have plaid a lot of that as well. I never had a GM say that my +5 Sword now only does +2 because I used it in a way that was “unintended”. They would throw bigger monsters at me. That would force me to change my approach going forward rather then starting at step one again.

As you can tell by my writing, I am all about the confrontation….


Here’s to a lively debate! Cheers…

Ps What’s wrong with Tic, Tack, Toe…. I love the beanbags

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I have never made the accusation that the Devs were “Dimwits” as you put it.

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Er, somebody else said that.

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“ So you want to 6 slot hasten and have it on all the time, Well how do you like these apples!" and through tougher content at me or tougher villains.

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Sounds good, until you consider that everyone riding the ability caps all the time makes certain powersets less useful than others. Buffing and debuffing are undervalued, among other things.

State's stated purpose for ED worked out fairly well--it's now a five AT game. There's not a toon you can bring into your team that doesn't bring something to the table that's both useful and nessary--as opposed to City of Fire Tankers + 7 Random Bodies.

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To have his/ her make up changed by changing the rules after all the time you spent on it, is just plain wrong.

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Debateable. Static games do not maintain player bases. Part of the challenge is working with what you've got, and learning how to adapt when something changes...and something always WILL change, in any game, anywhere.

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I never had a GM say that my +5 Sword now only does +2 because I used it in a way that was “unintended”. They would throw bigger monsters at me. That would force me to change my approach going forward rather then starting at step one again.

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Ah, a cue up a fine annecdotal story about why you cannot continue to just "make the bad guys harder" into infinity. Bradley U, the D&D lobby geeks--playing the game until nearly every character had a selection of the best available gear, including artifacts. Regularly rolled over demigods, the legendary dragons, and every Demon Prince in the game.

Classic Monty Haul campaign, whupping the baddest monsters available again and again and again--the players grew bored playing it, and voluntarily began again with a much more limited approach to magic goodies, experience, et al. The original mutant freak overpowered characters were retired and haven't seen the light of day since.

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Static games do not maintain player bases.

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Can you cite anything to back up this claim? Genuinely curious. If it's just your opinion, that's fine, no need to explain further.

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To have his/ her make up changed by changing the rules after all the time you spent on it, is just plain wrong.

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Debateable. Static games do not maintain player bases. Part of the challenge is working with what you've got, and learning how to adapt when something changes...and something always WILL change, in any game, anywhere.



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*cough*Chess*cough*

Not arguing against your point, but maybe you shouldn't be so unequivical in your statements

I think she had it right in her head, but was too concise in her statement.

Computer game companies who make relatively 'static' games don't have to do much to maintain those games. Often 'static' games aren't responsible for entertaining a player byond 40-100 hours and don't require a subscription. A minor patch or two a year, maybe, because there's little money to be made by futzing with 'static' games. 'Fluid' games, like CoX and many MMORPGs, have a valid financial motivation to futz with gameplay over time to maintain their playerbase and the reoccuring income.

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I have never made the accusation that the Devs were “Dimwits” as you put it.

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Er, somebody else said that.?

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Sorry it was the guy before you Smellyman or something

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“ So you want to 6 slot hasten and have it on all the time, Well how do you like these apples!" and through tougher content at me or tougher villains.

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Sounds good, until you consider that everyone riding the ability caps all the time makes certain powersets less useful than others. Buffing and debuffing are undervalued, among other things.

State's stated purpose for ED worked out fairly well--it's now a five AT game. There's not a toon you can bring into your team that doesn't bring something to the table that's both useful and nessary--as opposed to City of Fire Tankers + 7 Random Bodies.

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Isnt that what the heroic to invincible levels was to do... befoer ED. That way a guy can plug along if he wants or turn the volum up to 11!

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To have his/ her make up changed by changing the rules after all the time you spent on it, is just plain wrong.

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Debateable. Static games do not maintain player bases. Part of the challenge is working with what you've got, and learning how to adapt when something changes...and something always WILL change, in any game, anywhere.

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Agreed... but it should be the enviornment... not the toon

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I never had a GM say that my +5 Sword now only does +2 because I used it in a way that was “unintended”. They would throw bigger monsters at me. That would force me to change my approach going forward rather then starting at step one again.

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Ah, a cue up a fine annecdotal story about why you cannot continue to just "make the bad guys harder" into infinity. Bradley U, the D&D lobby geeks--playing the game until nearly every character had a selection of the best available gear, including artifacts. Regularly rolled over demigods, the legendary dragons, and every Demon Prince in the game.

Classic Monty Haul campaign, whupping the baddest monsters available again and again and again--the players grew bored playing it, and voluntarily began again with a much more limited approach to magic goodies, experience, et al. The original mutant freak overpowered characters were retired and haven't seen the light of day since.

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But was that not fun! can you not embrace the madness of pure chaos?

"A little nonsense now and then, is cherished by the wisest men"

I can't think of any "change for change's sake" things the devs have done, so I don't really agree that change in and of itself is needed to maintain a player's interest.

Changing things in MMOs always has a guiding purpose to it. Sometimes a power is too strong or too weak and adjusted accordingly. Sometimes new content is added, like powersets, zones, missions and TFs, to give players new things to experience.

The effect of these changes might be to hold a player's interest longer ("I can't wait to make an electric brute!"), especially in the case of content or buffing powers. That's normal and to be expected.

But as I said, I can't think of anything the devs have done with the mentality of "Well, we don't need to change this, but let's do it, anyway, just to spice things up." And I don't think that approach would be successful, either. It would probably be annoying, actually.

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Bradley U, the D&D lobby geeks(...)

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<OT>

Are you from Peoria, by chance?

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I can't think of any "change for change's sake" things the devs have done, so I don't really agree that change in and of itself is needed to maintain a player's interest.

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Me neither. Who was suggesting 'changes for changes' sake'? I thought MissDemeanor was talking about how MMOGs were complex systems (and often rushed to market) that were regularly being tweaked because of player and company concerns. Not sure what you're responding to.

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Agreed... but it should be the enviornment... not the toon

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Why? This kinda seems like splitting hairs. I think you're identifying with your character a bit too strongly if you expect it to remain an inviolate fixture (something that's nigh impossible for anything in a MMOG).

To be honest, I can't find a way to better explain what I meant. My post wasn't meant to imply anyone here believes Cryptic makes changes just for the sake of changing things, just to note that I don't think any sensible MMO developers would indulge in such a thing.

Nothing more than that, really. As a debating point, it's a bit of a non-starter.

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I maybe dippy, but I don't understand why having one power set that is better then the others?

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Let's pull out an example. Right now, some players have an attitude about tankers that, if it ain't a Granite tanker, don't invite it. While I disagree with their conclusion, there's little doubt that this sort of attitude is bad for the community. It makes folks who play non-stone tankers feel dejected. There's nothing worse than accepting a team invite, only to be asked "R U Stone?" before they kick you. This does happen, and it creates a hostile community that drives people away. This is true anytime a large number of players get an opinion like this stuck in their heads.

So how do you fix it? Really depends on the big picture. If the other powersets in the AT perform acceptably then the simplest solution is to nerf the one powerset that's outperforming the rest. If the other powersets are under performing it's better to buff the other powersets. The goal isn't to make all the powersets perform identically, but to get them so that (a) they can all do the job the AT is supposed to do, and (b) there's no one powerset that's always the optimal choice under any circumstances that matter.

Right now, most people who play tankers feel like tanks, as a whole, are under performing. The consensus seems to be that the Def changes and ED hit tanks too hard. To some extant, the dev's seem to agree. Tankers should be seeing some relief for their woes once the defense changes in I7 hit. For most primaries, there's a lot of cautious optimism that this change will allow non-granite tankers to actually tank for a group again, but only time will tell.

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To be honest, I can't find a way to better explain what I meant. My post wasn't meant to imply anyone here believes Cryptic makes changes just for the sake of changing things, just to note that I don't think any sensible MMO developers would indulge in such a thing.

Nothing more than that, really. As a debating point, it's a bit of a non-starter.

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Indeed, all changes have a purpose (often one the players don't see or refuse to recognise).

One of the oldest online pay-service internet games (17 years and counting) still regularly receives 'nerfs' and 'buffs'--no good game is EVER 'done'.

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Agreed... but it should be the enviornment... not the toon

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Why? This kinda seems like splitting hairs. I think you're identifying with your character a bit too strongly if you expect it to remain an inviolate fixture (something that's nigh impossible for anything in a MMOG).

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After playing my lv 50 Controller for 673 hours... you get attached. Am I wrong there?

As far as the splitting hairs... I don't understand that comment at all. You build a toon, tweek it with respects and slotting until you get it the best Hero / Villain you can. Having what you feel in the best you can do just to have it knocked out from under you, will tick off most people. (maybe not you I guess) I you come across a string of missions that are more difficult.. that I feel is more acceptable to most players. I can't see how that is splitting hairs!

Whether the mobs get buffed up or your powers get tweaked in some way, change is change. I can see your point that you want to retain the illusion that nothing has happened to your character, but the fact remains that the challenge bar has nonetheless been raised for your character. I don't buy into the illusion, so I made the splitting hair comment. You should feel free to hold onto it, though. We all have them in some way.

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Whether the mobs get buffed up or your powers get tweaked in some way, change is change. I can see your point that you want to retain the illusion that nothing has happened to your character, but the fact remains that the challenge bar has nonetheless been raised for your character. I don't buy into the illusion, so I made the splitting hair comment. You should feel free to hold onto it, though. We all have them in some way.

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H'uh? What are you talking about... I understand they did mess with the abilities, and as they say for the better. Well I say its not and I don't like it.
I am voicing my disapproval of that. If I had my way I would have my Pre-ED toon back. That's no illusion in my mind
Where I would put the content difficulty change would be in the future mission and creat a villain group that would compensate for those powers that Dev feel are over powered.

What I can say is I can no longer play they way I had for the 1 year and a half when I got to Lvl 50. It was fine for that time frame, why is it bad now?

I am sorry you don't buy into the illusion as you call it. The fact that this thread is now 14 pages says to that a a good number of poeple who take pride in a toon well done, and don't want to see their hard work ripped out from underneath them.

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What I can say is I can no longer play they way I had for the 1 year and a half when I got to Lvl 50. It was fine for that time frame, why is it bad now?

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Yes, nothing's changed about the game mechanics at all since launch. Nothing new has been learned about powers or about how powers work together, nothing's changed about xp rewards, and no isolated gaming of the system has gone mainstream. You're right. It's all about screwing with your head because the devs have said, "This time - it's personal!"

Welcome to MMOGs. Gameplay may change over time no matter which one you pick.

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What I can say is I can no longer play they way I had for the 1 year and a half when I got to Lvl 50. It was fine for that time frame, why is it bad now?

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Yes, nothing's changed about the game mechanics at all since launch. Nothing new has been learned about powers or about how powers work together, nothing's changed about xp rewards, and no isolated gaming of the system has gone mainstream. You're right. It's all about screwing with your head because the devs have said, "This time - it's personal!"

Welcome to MMOGs. Gameplay may change over time no matter which one you pick.

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If this weren't so long, it would be in my sig.

Talk to the guy who hacked the forum recently. He has ways.