its just tornado with a different animation
I spent an hour PvPing in Siren's without Hide or Stealth and left with a 5:1 Kill
eath ratio. Of course, I was a little more careful than I normally am, but nonetheless, my point stands. If my Stalker can achieve a better K ratio than most of my (very) HO'd lvl50's in Siren's without the use of hide, you have little to whine about.
A Stalker without Hide/Stealth still = PvP in easy mode.
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HO's do not make a difference because of ED. HO's do not increase damage or ACC beyond what SO's offer since ED was implemented.
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Oh come on, it allows you to have 3 Acc + 3 Dmg in 3 slots and still have 3 empty slots to fill with End Red or Recharge (or whatever secondary effect your attack might have) SO's. If you are saying that doesn't have an effect on PvP you are sorely mistaken. The player doesn't have to make a choice between Acc vs. Dmg with HO's. He gets both.
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Read what I wrote. HO's do allow for more slotting options, I never said that they didn't. What I was pointing out was the HO's do _not_ increase ACC and DAM more than SO's do.
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I did. You said "HO's do not make a difference because of ED." plain as day and you even re-quoted yourself saying it. Especially since your statement was a response to my generic rant about how HO's negate defensive AT's and you directly countered that with your line. Nice try to wiggle out of it now. Yeah, you didn't say HO's didn't allow for more slotting options. You just plain said I was wrong when, actually, you just weren't looking at the whole picture.
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HO's do not make a difference because of ED. HO's do not increase damage or ACC beyond what SO's offer since ED was implemented.
[/ QUOTE ] There's that rock solid logic so often found on these boards...
Never mind that using three slots, you are most likely exceeding the accuracy of any SO'd toons.
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Really, so will 6 slotting HO's give you more ACC than 6 slotting SO's? While you _can_ slot dam/acc HO's that nets you a whopping 15% more than a 3 and 3 SO slotting.
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Nevermined that with three slots, you have three more slots which can all be slotted for recharge which would increase your DPS substantially. Nevermind that if you chose to six slot with Acc/Dmg, you would be getting a beneift over other SO'd toons 10% greater accuracy and damage like having someon on your team running Assault and unslotted Tactics.
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I never said that HO's didn't give an advantage, they do, but people complaining that they will suddenly be taking massive amounts of additional damage and having their defenses nullfied by HO's don't know how the game works.
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No, HO's don't provide any increase in damage for those who can fully slot them. Can I have yours please?
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Don't have any.
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This, ladies and gentlemen, is a fine example of a Straw Man fallacy. See, he makes up some fictional argument as if I argued that HO's are more powerful than SO's when actually I argued that HO's kill defensive sets, and then proceeds to attack that much weaker fictional arguement to boost his original arguement. Classic.
I know how the game works. I have been on both the receiving end and giving end of HO death. My Inv/SS tank can punch through ANY defence in the game with Knockout Blow SOLO. I have 3 Dmg/Acc HO's in it. Add that to three To Hit Buff/Recharge in Rage and another two To Hit Buff/Def Buff/End in Invincibility and I don't miss in Siren's call just about ever. And in lvl 50 zones... FA with three To Hit Buff/End and I can KO Blow through Elude with some consistancy. And all that slotting I would NOT be able to do without HO's.
And just so you know, I've taken my come-uppens for that with my Ice Tank, /SR stalker and /EA Brute. In Siren's Call it's as if I have NO defence most of the time. Blappers almost never miss. Ever. The defence in both my /SR and /EA toons has almost no dicernable effect against high level Hero's that frequent that zone. I know what I am talking about.
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I spent an hour PvPing in Siren's without Hide or Stealth and left with a 5:1 Killeath ratio. Of course, I was a little more careful than I normally am, but nonetheless, my point stands. If my Stalker can achieve a better K ratio than most of my (very) HO'd lvl50's in Siren's without the use of hide, you have little to whine about.
A Stalker without Hide/Stealth still = PvP in easy mode.
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Let me guess... /Regen? Also, I would guess you didn't go up against Blappers who can 2 shot you or Scrappers who, if they crit, can 2 shot you. Or my Inv/SS tank that would eat ANY stalker not using Hide and does frequently ones that do... If a Stalker without Hide is PvP on Easy Mode then ANY Scrapper is PvP with God Mode turned on. They have a higher base damage, much higher hit points and can crit without the need for Hide or somebody to be Held. I think you are overstating things quite a bit to say a Stalker without Hide is easy mode. 
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I spent an hour PvPing in Siren's without Hide or Stealth and left with a 5:1 Killeath ratio. Of course, I was a little more careful than I normally am, but nonetheless, my point stands. If my Stalker can achieve a better K ratio than most of my (very) HO'd lvl50's in Siren's without the use of hide, you have little to whine about.
A Stalker without Hide/Stealth still = PvP in easy mode.
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So you can take your stalker and not use Hide/Stealth for a 1 day for 1 hour in Sirens and get a k:d ratio of 5:1. Is 5:1 low, high, or medium?
We didnt even use the term Kill to Death ratio untill _Castle_ mentioned it a few days ago and we still dont know what a normal k:d is for an average player.
So without knowing baselines, saying your 5:1 in only 1 hour means stalkers = Easy PvP Mode really doesnt hold water.
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I spent an hour PvPing in Siren's without Hide or Stealth and left with a 5:1 Killeath ratio. Of course, I was a little more careful than I normally am, but nonetheless, my point stands. If my Stalker can achieve a better K ratio than most of my (very) HO'd lvl50's in Siren's without the use of hide, you have little to whine about.
A Stalker without Hide/Stealth still = PvP in easy mode.
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Let me guess... /Regen? Also, I would guess you didn't go up against Blappers who can 2 shot you or Scrappers who, if they crit, can 2 shot you. Or my Inv/SS tank that would eat ANY stalker not using Hide and does frequently ones that do... If a Stalker without Hide is PvP on Easy Mode then ANY Scrapper is PvP with God Mode turned on. They have a higher base damage, much higher hit points and can crit without the need for Hide or somebody to be Held. I think you are overstating things quite a bit to say a Stalker without Hide is easy mode.
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I call shenanigans about two shotting. I can barely get a stalker past 1/3rd health with BU + HS at least in Warburg. Then the flee and placate me. :P
Then again, if they did the four times crit, maybe. Otherwise, this is pretty rare....
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I spent an hour PvPing in Siren's without Hide or Stealth and left with a 5:1 Killeath ratio. Of course, I was a little more careful than I normally am, but nonetheless, my point stands. If my Stalker can achieve a better K ratio than most of my (very) HO'd lvl50's in Siren's without the use of hide, you have little to whine about.
A Stalker without Hide/Stealth still = PvP in easy mode.
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Let me guess... /Regen? Also, I would guess you didn't go up against Blappers who can 2 shot you or Scrappers who, if they crit, can 2 shot you. Or my Inv/SS tank that would eat ANY stalker not using Hide and does frequently ones that do... If a Stalker without Hide is PvP on Easy Mode then ANY Scrapper is PvP with God Mode turned on. They have a higher base damage, much higher hit points and can crit without the need for Hide or somebody to be Held. I think you are overstating things quite a bit to say a Stalker without Hide is easy mode.
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I call shenanigans about two shotting. I can barely get a stalker past 1/3rd health with BU + HS at least in Warburg. Then the flee and placate me. :P
Then again, if they did the four times crit, maybe. Otherwise, this is pretty rare....
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then i guess me getting one shotted by a scrapper with buildup and head splitter with a crit doesnt count huh.
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but people complaining that they will suddenly be taking massive amounts of additional damage
[/ QUOTE ] Well, let's see ...if I can use three recharges in addition to my three acc/dmg...my DPS is close to doubling because of the three recharges I can now slot because of HO's.
So yes...in some cases, HO's can almost (can't ignore animation and the Recharge/(1 + xx) equation) double the damage you're receiving...at least from the slower charging heavy hitting attacks.
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I never said that HO's didn't give an advantage
[/ QUOTE ] I think you have a little more back-pedaling to do just yet.
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then i guess me getting one shotted by a scrapper with buildup and head splitter with a crit doesnt count huh.
[/ QUOTE ] The PvP zones have global debuff/buffs which people seem to be wholly ignorant of in these discussion. Considering you can increase your damage output by 15% and decrease someone's dmg resistance by 15%, IIRC, then a wide range of experiences are possible, though maybe not common.
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something i wont ever have to worry about in recluses victory is fear that i will be hunted down by heros because as we all know heros always stay together
[/ QUOTE ] If you can be seen, someone will hunt you.
In RV...you will be seen.
Even if someone can't see you, but knows you are there, they can hunt you. My /regen has killed pleny of solo stalkers who thought they were doing the hunting.
QN...I can tell by your post that you are already stressed about it.
on my server infinity warburg is always in the highest of buffs for the villains side of thing. its where we all finish levels 36-40. anyhow the truth of it was that i got one shot from someone that wasnt in any hidden mode, the attack went through my kuji-in retsu- godmode if you will, and instantly killed me, the hero was a level 50 BS/Regen (38 in WB of course), i dont think he popped any insp either.
the general consensus would be that he had HO's and used buildup, and not many lvl 40 villains have 3 recharge, 3 to-hit buffs in buildup for the simple fact that we cant waste the slots yet for something that lasts only 10 seconds. however a lvl 50 hero can use up 3 slots and get the same advantage.
i have no resistances to lethal damage except those maybe granted by the zone, but in godmode my defense is at 105% roughly and i barely ever get hit by anything but lvl 50 heros sporting HO's or the occasional alert blaster.
the good news about the new zone will be i can respec out of all my defensive powers and take more toys to assist in playing, fooling, and just plain misbehaving in the pvp zones.
since anything that would kill me can without trying. my def cant get any higher then it is, and if most the offensive heros can hit me and have more hp's then me i guess having any defense is just stupid. hmmm thinking tpfoe, caltrops, 3 movement powers, and a second heal.
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something i wont ever have to worry about in recluses victory is fear that i will be hunted down by heros because as we all know heros always stay together
[/ QUOTE ] If you can be seen, someone will hunt you.
In RV...you will be seen.
Even if someone can't see you, but knows you are there, they can hunt you. My /regen has killed pleny of solo stalkers who thought they were doing the hunting.
QN...I can tell by your post that you are already stressed about it.
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like i stated in the post you quoted, i will have grant invis and my fellow SG mates will have it also and we will keep it on us at all times, therefore never being seen until we decide to attack. and yeah im stressed mostly cause our patron power pools suck, the HO's and easily accessible self +perception powers on the deadliest of damage dealing toons- scrappers and blasters are going to make sure that the only villain AT that has a chance in hell are taken out easily and smoothly.
the stalkers have been the balance of this game in heros vs villains were the only reason that heros stay out of zones long enough for MM's to clear the mobs to get control back from the heros. i plan to fight through it and will always keep up my pvp rep, however if stalkers are screwed then so are all the other villain AT's do to useless epic powers.
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So without knowing baselines, saying your 5:1 in only 1 hour means stalkers = Easy PvP Mode really doesnt hold water.
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Well, here's one baseline: for a perfectly balanced system, each AT would have close to a 1:1 ratio, assuming that there is a rough equality of player skill in each AT. This means that the more capable an AT is of getting kills, the more risk it should be at. This would apply whether teamed or solo.
Now this is obviously not the case at the moment. Defenders and dominators at the moment are disadvantaged on both sides - both being easy targets and being unable to kill opponents quickly. Tanks and blasters are arguably balanced with one able to kill quickly but still be fragile, and the other much harder to kill, but also unlikely to actually take down an opponent. Stalkers and scrappers are at the top end - being fast killers and very difficult to take down.
PvP is a zero-sum game. The game as a whole is going to be 1:1. the farther individual ATs get from that ratio, the more out of balance it is. It becomes less a contest of individual skill and more a contest of mechanical advantage. The K ratio is nice as a measure because it is independent of the numbers of each AT played. If one AT (Dominators, for example) is played less, then it will get fewer kills. But it should also get fewer deaths, because it is not a large fraction of available targets. If it is dying more than it is killing, on average, that means the reward/risk is out of whack for that AT, because
In the state of highly mobile PvP that we currently have, 'Support' ATs are difficult to protect. If your AT has an average K ratio much less than 1:1, then your AT fulfills the role of 'victim'. If you personally have a a ratio that is better, you have every reason to think you are impressive. If your AT has an average K ratio much greater than 1:1, then your AT is one of the priviledged ones. As such, your personal ratio must be very good indeed to allow any sort of bragging rights, because you have a built-in advantage. Sort of like playing soccer against folks on crutches.
So 5:1 is probably too high for balance, Solomon, assuming the poster you replied to is not a tremendous player with superb skills - and he didn't seem to think so. As far as 'Easy Mode' goes, any AT with a ratio greater than 1:1 is on 'Easy Mode', as it is unlikely that any one AT would draw more skilled players to it than the others. Does that help you?
Addendum: After thinking - depending on how the Devs cook up their stats, the ideal zone average K ratio may be _less_ than 1:1 - if you include deaths by NPC. The above discussion assumes only players kill other players. So a high average K ratio could be even more out of whack.
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but people complaining that they will suddenly be taking massive amounts of additional damage
[/ QUOTE ] Well, let's see ...if I can use three recharges in addition to my three acc/dmg...my DPS is close to doubling because of the three recharges I can now slot because of HO's.
So yes...in some cases, HO's can almost (can't ignore animation and the Recharge/(1 + xx) equation) double the damage you're receiving...at least from the slower charging heavy hitting attacks.
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I never said that HO's didn't give an advantage
[/ QUOTE ] I think you have a little more back-pedaling to do just yet.
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No, no back pedaling. Recharge only matter to the next target, not the one in front of you. Have you ever PvP'ed? It doesn't sound like you have much experience, at least not against anyone with any level of skill or teamwork. If you and your team don't kill a target in one attack chain, its highly unlikely that you will on a subsequent one because his team's healers have him back to full health.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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HO's do not make a difference because of ED. HO's do not increase damage or ACC beyond what SO's offer since ED was implemented.
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Oh come on, it allows you to have 3 Acc + 3 Dmg in 3 slots and still have 3 empty slots to fill with End Red or Recharge (or whatever secondary effect your attack might have) SO's. If you are saying that doesn't have an effect on PvP you are sorely mistaken. The player doesn't have to make a choice between Acc vs. Dmg with HO's. He gets both.
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Read what I wrote. HO's do allow for more slotting options, I never said that they didn't. What I was pointing out was the HO's do _not_ increase ACC and DAM more than SO's do.
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I did. You said "HO's do not make a difference because of ED." plain as day and you even re-quoted yourself saying it. Especially since your statement was a response to my generic rant about how HO's negate defensive AT's and you directly countered that with your line. Nice try to wiggle out of it now. Yeah, you didn't say HO's didn't allow for more slotting options. You just plain said I was wrong when, actually, you just weren't looking at the whole picture.
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What, is today lets be an idiot day? Read that damn sentence, "HO's do not increase damage or ACC beyond what SO's offer since ED was implemented." I can slot exactly the same amount, in fact a tiny bit more, ACC and DAM and toHitBuffs with SO's than with HO's. This isn't an opinion, its simple math. Now, would there be a price to pay for that slotting? Certainly there would, but it could be easily overcome by getting a couple of buffs.
HO's do not negate defensive based sets, defensive based sets have far more to worry about from the high base values of self toHitBuffs like Aim and Buildup than HO's.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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What, is today lets be an idiot day? Read that damn sentence, "HO's do not increase damage or ACC beyond what SO's offer since ED was implemented." I can slot exactly the same amount, in fact a tiny bit more, ACC and DAM and toHitBuffs with SO's than with HO's. This isn't an opinion, its simple math. Now, would there be a price to pay for that slotting? Certainly there would, but it could be easily overcome by getting a couple of buffs.
HO's do not negate defensive based sets, defensive based sets have far more to worry about from the high base values of self toHitBuffs like Aim and Buildup than HO's.
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Nice, all you do is continue with your straw man and completely ignore my other post and anybody else's arguement about how HO's affect slotting. NOBODY argued that HO's have a higher value than SO's. So quit acting like people are arguing that and address the whole issue before you call people idiots. The pot is looking very much like it's calling the kettle black.
Just in case anyone is wondering I did a little lookup on Hero Builder to see actually how much of a difference 6 slotting would be on AS. This is using EM as a primary.
No Slots: 19.4 Damage
To Hit Even: 75% +1: 68% +2: 61%
3 Slotted Damage, and 3 slotted Acc
37.9 Damage
To Hit Even: 146% +1: 139% +2: 132%
6 Slotted Damage/Acc (If We had access to Hami O's)
40.8 Damage
To Hit Even: 157% +1: 150% +2: 143%
Now add Build Up to the mix
56.4 Damage
To Hit Even: 199.5% +1: 190.5% +2: 181.7%
Now take in mind this is using Hero Builder. I am not sure of the accuarcy of the data. It seems that you get that little extra pop by 6 slotting anything, but when Build Up comes into play, a +16 BI and a HUGE boost in ACC thats pretty damn good if you ask me. I can just hope that Villains get the same access to these Enahncements as Heros do. I don't knock any Hero for using them, hey you got em, use em!!
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What, is today lets be an idiot day? Read that damn sentence, "HO's do not increase damage or ACC beyond what SO's offer since ED was implemented." I can slot exactly the same amount, in fact a tiny bit more, ACC and DAM and toHitBuffs with SO's than with HO's. This isn't an opinion, its simple math. Now, would there be a price to pay for that slotting? Certainly there would, but it could be easily overcome by getting a couple of buffs.
HO's do not negate defensive based sets, defensive based sets have far more to worry about from the high base values of self toHitBuffs like Aim and Buildup than HO's.
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Nice, all you do is continue with your straw man and completely ignore my other post and anybody else's arguement about how HO's affect slotting. NOBODY argued that HO's have a higher value than SO's. So quit acting like people are arguing that and address the whole issue before you call people idiots. The pot is looking very much like it's calling the kettle black.
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When someone comes out crying that HO's negate defense, they are being an idiot. HO's are not the culprit, at least not since they reduced the amount of buff they provided several issues back. The reason that defense has a problem is the large number of high base value self toHitBuff powers. Aim, Build Up, and Focused Accuracy are the prime problems.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
I'm so tired of hearing the prase "kill to death ratio". This has NO bearing on anything, because any K ratio is relative to not only to your AT and build, but also to your skill and the number of opponents in the zone, their builds, and their skills.
I regularly PvP on my stalker as well as my MM. There are days I can get 5 or more kills on my MM in a matter of minutes. There are days I get killed every time I come out of the hospital. It is all relavent. On my stalker, there are days I can zone in and rack up kills just as fast as BU resets. There are also days that I spend long periods of time just to get one kill and end up spending most of my time perched on buildings watching my targets or running away.
It isn't dependant on my build or my skill. It is primarily dependant on the number of opponents in the zone, their level of skill, and their builds.
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I'm so tired of hearing the prase "kill to death ratio". This has NO bearing on anything, because any K ratio is relative to not only to your AT and build, but also to your skill and the number of opponents in the zone, their builds, and their skills.
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I absolutely agree that kill-to-death ratio is not necessarily a reliable indicator of an imbalance.
But to say it has 'no bearing on anything' only because there are other factors partially obscuring any conclusions we could draw from K isn't something I can agree with as you state it.
I can say that a much more relevent ratio would be reputation/bounty-per-hour. If you're solo, you don't have to share, but probably earn it more slowly. But, that comparison would ignore number of deaths(risk), as it only considers rewards over time.
I'd guess the devs are normalizing kill-to-death ratios and bounty-per-hour ratios, and looking at both of them together to get an idea of current balance in open PvP zones.
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I regularly PvP on my stalker as well as my MM. There are days I can get 5 or more kills on my MM in a matter of minutes. There are days I get killed every time I come out of the hospital. It is all relavent. On my stalker, there are days I can zone in and rack up kills just as fast as BU resets. There are also days that I spend long periods of time just to get one kill and end up spending most of my time perched on buildings watching my targets or running away.
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It isn't dependant on my build or my skill. It is primarily dependant on the number of opponents in the zone, their level of skill, and their builds.
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It's mostly dependant on you choosing to solo(and the number of opponents in the zone, of course).
Your experiences of a great deal of kills one night vs. running for your life the next would even out if you were consistently working on a balanced team.
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When someone comes out crying that HO's negate defense, they are being an idiot. HO's are not the culprit, at least not since they reduced the amount of buff they provided several issues back. The reason that defense has a problem is the large number of high base value self toHitBuff powers. Aim, Build Up, and Focused Accuracy are the prime problems.
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Well Build Up and Aim are only available to Blasters in tandem in Siren's call and Focused Accuracy isn't even available to anybody in Siren's Call at all. So your point is only valid for Blappers/Blasters there. And ALL of them are much more effective with HO's because, again, of the slotting freedom they give.
You'd have to be an idiot to think that HO's don't have a dramatic effect on a PvP build, especially against defense based sets. Or a noob that doesn't even have one HO. There is a reason people sit through the snorefest that is a Hammidon raid. HO's exaserbate an already BAD problem for defence sets. To the point where whole powersets are negated. Because it's not just Blasters with BU+Aim or Scrappers/Tanks with FA who can hit you. It's everybody. You are right that BU+Aim can negate defence sets and that FA takes a toll as well, but that's only part of the problem. Especially in Siren's Call.
Hell, with my TA/A defender I don't even need Aim, I power I skipped, to hit ANY defene build in Siren's Call. I can even punch through PFF on a MM with some regularity with no aim because a good chunk of my attack chain are slotted with Dmg/Acc HO's to some extent or another. Blazing Arrow has three and can hit any stalker almost without fail. And while I realize that the Arrow set has an acc boost it only further makes my point. And my point has nothing to do with the valid point that BU and Aim and FA are problems as well.
But lest anybody think I am calling for an HO nerf, I'm not. I think they are fine. Defence sets need a boost, plain and simple. And while they are getting one for PvE in I7 they are lacking in PvP.
Alright, we can agree that Defense based sets may need some attention in RV. However, I don't agree that HO's have much to do with the problem. I would suggest that you read Aracanaville's guide to Defense and play with some numbers. If you really think your TA can hit through any defense, yell at me some night, @thorizdin. I'll be glad to prove you wrong.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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Recharge only matter to the next target, not the one in front of you.
[/ QUOTE ] Well, this statement proves you live in a dream world or at least retreat there whenever someone exposes you for not having the foggiest notion of what you're talking about.
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at least not against anyone with any level of skill or teamwork
[/ QUOTE ] Any time you want to test my PvP skill, send me a PM. I'll be glad to give you a first hand experience.
I'm personally really excited about the patron powers for stalkers. I'm happy they gave us pets. Sure pets might not be the most pvp-viable, but if you want a pvp build no one is forcing you to take it. (After all, the devs HAVE given us a nifty snipe, a hold, and ranged attacks.. nothing to complain about there) If anyone is worried about accuracy just slot up your powers differently. Add some ToHit buffs to BuildUp and maybe tweak your Alpha Strike a bit.
Also, is it just me.. or does Water Spout sound like it has a knockback, disorient, AND fear component?
Water Spout - Conjures up a Water Spout at a targeted location. The Water Spout will chase down your foes, tossing them into the air and hurling them great distances. The victims are left Disoriented and with reduced Defense. The Water Spout is a menacing sight, and can even cause panic among your foes
Maybe I'm just dreaming.
-Silver