Anyone remember the skill system? Cryptic? Do You?
By
anachrodragon,
Posted on: 2006-03-02 14:52 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The problem is inventions fit one particular concept very well (tech) and suck for the rest. This will be great for 1-2 of my alts, but meaningless to the rest, and like many, I am all about concept.
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broaden your imagination if you're so much about concept.
As a natural arigin character I could invent gadgets or new training techniques that give me abilities I did not have before.
As a magic origin I might invent an artifact that triples my endurance for a short time, or a potion that can turn me invisible.
As a mutant, I'm certain there could be great advances with inventions that tap into my genetic code or further mutate myself.
Of course Science and Tech are the easiset ones to think of when you hear "Inventions" but I think it could easily be adapted to all the origins.
*jabs a dozen pillows in WolfenProtector mouth, blocking it up*
o.o well, it works well for the science, and tech, maybe natural too..
<.< I suspect the magic version might be "inventing" new spell, seal, golems, constructs...
I am Sleepy! Hear me Yawn!!
Veni, Vidi, Dormivi!
-Alpha Kitty of the Guardian chapter of the Legion of Catgirls
Never forget--Sleepy could conquer the world, if she could just stay awake long enough. =) -Llanwe
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*jabs a dozen pillows in WolfenProtector mouth, blocking it up*
o.o well, it works well for the science, and tech, maybe natural too..
<.< I suspect the magic version might be "inventing" new spell, seal, golems, constructs...
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Well, prepare to get your suspenders snapped, it's probably going to be based upon the salvage you collect instead of the origin of the character you use....
<.< most likely, but we already have 2 polarities of salvage, so that still fits it 
o.o sides, who wears suspenders?
I am Sleepy! Hear me Yawn!!
Veni, Vidi, Dormivi!
-Alpha Kitty of the Guardian chapter of the Legion of Catgirls
Never forget--Sleepy could conquer the world, if she could just stay awake long enough. =) -Llanwe
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broaden your imagination if you're so much about concept. {snip}
As a magic origin I might invent an artifact that triples my endurance for a short time, or a potion that can turn me invisible.
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I think this wanders back to the problem of narrowly defining Origins, though. My Magic scrapper's an archeologist who found a suit of magic armor. He doesn't know John Dee from Jan and Dean. His idea of an invocation is playing a Led Zepplin album backwards. He doesn't know squat about brewing potions or scrying stones.
So, I just won't invent. Ok, sounds reasonable... except that I get rewarded if I do and I don't get rewarded if I don't. In other games there's usually a tradeoff -- points spent in Crafting don't get spent in Sneak or such-like. Here, it sounds like I craft or I buy the wares from other heroes, an idea that doesn't seem to fit with my superhero tastes: "Web sling-AHS! Getcher red-hot Web sling-AHS!"
Way too early to really judge, doubt it's going to bring DOOOOOOM or the like... I'm just leery of the current, apparent implementation.
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<.< most likely, but we already have 2 polarities of salvage, so that still fits it
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Yeah, and looking at DOs, tech and magic items are already usuable by any orgin...
Natural - Relics (Magic) and Gadgets (tech)
Magic - duh!
Mutation - Focusing device (Magicish)
Science - Inventions (tech)
Technology - duh!
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Skills are shelved.
Inventions? :-)
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GO HUNT KILL SKILS!!
LvL 50's Inv/Em Tank, Katana/Regen Scrapper, Merc/Traps MM, Ninja/Dark MM, Crab
@Torell Guardian, Liberty & Freedom
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<.< most likely, but we already have 2 polarities of salvage, so that still fits it
o.o sides, who wears suspenders?
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As in your disbelief suspenders
o.O I have none sir
for a cat neither belives or disbelives, we ARE!
I am Sleepy! Hear me Yawn!!
Veni, Vidi, Dormivi!
-Alpha Kitty of the Guardian chapter of the Legion of Catgirls
Never forget--Sleepy could conquer the world, if she could just stay awake long enough. =) -Llanwe
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My Magic scrapper's an archeologist who found a suit of magic armor. He doesn't know John Dee from Jan and Dean.
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Do you slot Insight of Grey? Or Fury of Joule? How do they fit with the idea of Magic Armor? How about the DOs like Torque, Visor, Crowley's Wand?
Most people that are really determined *can* find an RP explanation for just about anything. Those that don't care that much just ignore the issue.
Go ahead and Invent... Perhaps the armor has a magic compartment where the hero sticks in random salvage and out comes a shiny toy!
I wouldn't mind if they just dropped all the names and just changed them all to:
Damage Enhancement
Edurance Mod Enhancement
etc
Most of my characters are tech, so I have most of those memorized. But I have a few magic and sci and it sucks having to read the desc. for each damn enhancement trying to find the debuff defense or whatever.
And don't get me started on DO's! The names for those are even worse!
--------------------
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<.< please don't mention the little grey aliens that are for some reason in the Magic SOs when they should be in science or something.
o.o really, with all the changes to backstory that keep happening, its hard to keep you PR background fitting if you have it in anyway tied into the CoH or V universe.
<.< sides, why can't magic orientated ppl use a car? or a powersuit, gun.. whatnot. it's something made o.O how about.. instead.. we call it... Mys-Tech!
I am Sleepy! Hear me Yawn!!
Veni, Vidi, Dormivi!
-Alpha Kitty of the Guardian chapter of the Legion of Catgirls
Never forget--Sleepy could conquer the world, if she could just stay awake long enough. =) -Llanwe
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please don't mention the little grey aliens that are for some reason in the Magic SOs when they should be in science or something.
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There are reasons, but any mention of them would most likely degrade almost instantly into a massive flamefest due to beliefs held by some.
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please don't mention the little grey aliens that are for some reason in the Magic SOs when they should be in science or something.
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There are reasons, but any mention of them would most likely degrade almost instantly into a massive flamefest due to beliefs held by some.
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Bah, like we need a reason to have a flamefest. 
*smacks Jeff with a... catgirl, there everywhere, might as well use 'em for something*
I'm trying to be responsible!
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My Magic scrapper's an archeologist who found a suit of magic armor. He doesn't know John Dee from Jan and Dean.
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Do you slot Insight of Grey? Or Fury of Joule? How do they fit with the idea of Magic Armor? How about the DOs like Torque, Visor, Crowley's Wand?
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You've brought up a system I don't like either. 
I've always been a bit uncomfortable with the Enhancement system. My character's don't rummage through people's pockets. I'm unclear about exactly what an "Insight of Grey" is, much less "Training Origin: Accuracy." A bit of cloth? An unshareable epiphany? What?
For that character, I pretend Enhancements don't exist in a gameworld sense. He uses his armor; every so often he learns to use it better. He goes to the Magic store to do occasional research about this-or-that "symptom" his suit's exhibiting.
More specifically, other people have wondered, "How many cybernetic hearts are in my chest?" Fortunately Enhancements are often named more abstractly: "Insight of Grey" can be pretty much whatever I want it to be.
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Most people that are really determined *can* find an RP explanation for just about anything. Those that don't care that much just ignore the issue.
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Oh, sure. However, the less I need to ignore, the happier I am. I can pretty much pretend that I'm not really going to a "store" to "buy" and "Sell" stuff I've "looted" -- I'm going to learn stuff, maybe talk to some folks who can make suggestions, maybe train to be more accurate. The system doesn't lend itself to that, though, so there's a bit of an irritating disconnect. If (say) I'm going to a university and I build a force field generator and I give it to my sidekick... I could probably come up with some rationale for it, but I'd rather the game make sense in the first place. Better to reduce the disconnects and allow the characters who, oh, want to brew potions to brew potions and allow those that don't to get something else in exchange for non-crafting.
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I think this wanders back to the problem of narrowly defining Origins, though. My Magic scrapper's an archeologist who found a suit of magic armor. He doesn't know John Dee from Jan and Dean. His idea of an invocation is playing a Led Zepplin album backwards. He doesn't know squat about brewing potions or scrying stones.
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It sounds like the problem here isn't the invention system, it's the broad range of character concepts.
If our character concepts were horribly limited like in all other MMO's you wouldn't have had this problem. "finding" your armor wouldn't have been an option, because your magic origin hero would have been like every other magic origin hero.
Although as a side note... it doesn't make sense for 90% of adventurers in a fantasy world to do alot of crafting either. A master swordsman doesn't grind out thousands of suits of platemail. He practices his sword technique. Generally speaking crafting in an MMO pretty much requires you to assume that your character is identical to all the other characters out there and has the same motivations as all the other characters out there.
But... we'd have this problem no matter what out of combat system was implimented. If they had put in a skills system instead... what about superman type heroes who have no skills whatsoever? Would they be left out in the cold? When you have character concepts this versitile, then sometimes you have to seperate yourself a bit in order to add playability to various features.
Zeus - god of skills
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Ahh, it seems only like Issue Three when all the good little Heroes gathered around their web browsers chatting about what might be. Now, as we gear up for Issue Seven, I wonder what has become of the off-again, on-again Skill system. Is it still on the 'Short List' of game improvements? Will it be something that Heroes and Villains both get? Or has it been completely scrapped due to lack of gaming ideas?
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Yes, we remember it. Getting it 'right' has proven difficult, though, which is why you folks haven't seen it. It's still something we are working on, though.
o.o kitty abuse!!!
*drops litterbox on Athyna*
>.< that'll teach you
<.< next time, we go after the draps!
o,o I've always felt that the the magic SOs where very odd and didn't fit in.. the DOs are alright, I wouldn't be surprised if the SOs where one of those things that where rushed for coh beta.
<.< we'll have to see how the i7 portion of invention goes really before we can decide if its something that can be worked into origin stories. >.> if all it is is making temp powers, then does it really matter?
I am Sleepy! Hear me Yawn!!
Veni, Vidi, Dormivi!
-Alpha Kitty of the Guardian chapter of the Legion of Catgirls
Never forget--Sleepy could conquer the world, if she could just stay awake long enough. =) -Llanwe
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I think this wanders back to the problem of narrowly defining Origins, though. My Magic scrapper's an archeologist who found a suit of magic armor. He doesn't know John Dee from Jan and Dean. His idea of an invocation is playing a Led Zepplin album backwards. He doesn't know squat about brewing potions or scrying stones.
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So couldn't he just as easily "find" instead of "invent" the new whachamabob that you made using the "Invention" system? All it takes is a little bit of a different view of it, or a slightly different RP.
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Ahh, it seems only like Issue Three when all the good little Heroes gathered around their web browsers chatting about what might be. Now, as we gear up for Issue Seven, I wonder what has become of the off-again, on-again Skill system. Is it still on the 'Short List' of game improvements? Will it be something that Heroes and Villains both get? Or has it been completely scrapped due to lack of gaming ideas?
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Yes, we remember it. Getting it 'right' has proven difficult, though, which is why you folks haven't seen it. It's still something we are working on, though.
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Still?
There's hope?
You aren't just stringing us along like Statesy does, are you?
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Although as a side note... it doesn't make sense for 90% of adventurers in a fantasy world to do alot of crafting either. A master swordsman doesn't grind out thousands of suits of platemail. He practices his sword technique.
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Agreed, although in my limited MMO experience the master swordsman doesn't grind out the platemail, the master armorer does. If a game made me a better swordsman because I was hammering out pauldrons I'd definitely gripe.
There's also the matter of genre, too: is it Generic Fantasy World Inspired by the Olmecs or is it "Xanth Online?" I'd say you've got more flexibility in the former case than the latter. Anyhow...
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Generally speaking crafting in an MMO pretty much requires you to assume that your character is identical to all the other characters out there and has the same motivations as all the other characters out there.
But... we'd have this problem no matter what out of combat system was implimented. If they had put in a skills system instead... what about superman type heroes who have no skills whatsoever? Would they be left out in the cold? When you have character concepts this versitile, then sometimes you have to seperate yourself a bit in order to add playability to various features.
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It depends on the skill system; I'd expect it's possible to create one that's fairly broad, if not all-inclusive (in theory, anyhow -- I'm sure the developers have tried to put it into practice). You're absolutely right, though -- there's a point where the player has to meet the game halfway or quit playing. As someone used to Champions/HERO for my cape-and-spandex fix, I didn't quite like the Archetype structure (although given the nature of this game as opposed to a tabletop, 6-8 person game I completely understand the Archetype structure). It didn't bug me enough to make me quit, obviously.
For me it's a matter of the degree of seperation (your Kevin Bacon joke here!). Right now, it sounds like the game will change thusly: "All characters will be crafters. Eventually, all characters can make temp powers that they'll be able to sell or give away as party favors." Given my current crop of characters and my distaste for the idea of a Superhero Free Market Economy, that's a pretty big seperation for me to undertake.
EDIT: I realized I was getting the final word and closing off discussion with my "last I've got to say about it" business, so I'm retracting it. I reserve the right to engage in wildly paranoid and utterly unfounded conspiracies if we continue discussing, however.
We've got a creative bunch running this show, so perhaps I'm going to love what they concoct.
OK, almost the last bit:
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So couldn't he just as easily "find" instead of "invent" the new whachamabob that you made using the "Invention" system? All it takes is a little bit of a different view of it, or a slightly different RP.
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Again, it is a matter of how much of a disconnect there is between the in-game system and the approach I'd prefer to take. Heck, I could play a winged centaur in the game if I wanted to, or presume I'm robbing from the stores instead of selling to them -- but that's a level of disconnect I'd rather not take.
o.o quick! it's castle! pounce him!
<.< by still, you mean it's actually still being done eventually? States post seem to indicate that it's never happening.
o.o usually when I hear somethings "shelfed" they mean it's stuck on the highest place possible to collect dust till judgement day.
I am Sleepy! Hear me Yawn!!
Veni, Vidi, Dormivi!
-Alpha Kitty of the Guardian chapter of the Legion of Catgirls
Never forget--Sleepy could conquer the world, if she could just stay awake long enough. =) -Llanwe
The devs disagree!
Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
I hate to say this but I really enjoyed EQ's AA point system (Alternate Advancement), which allowed the player to take a persentage of their EXP as it was earned and put it into a pool. Once you had enough pts. you "bought" skills out of a quiet extensive list. Some General. Most class specific. I'd love to see something like this.