Blood Widows suck
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2006-02-02 18:55 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Yep.
Semi-daft question Castle -
Is this a Database type fix so actve right away, or does it have to filter through the internal QA -> test -> live flow chart ?
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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*cough*
Well, considering there is a decimal error in their AoE Defense (250% instead of 25%), I'm not surprised the Rain of Arrows missed a ton. 
I'll fix it today.
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Go Office Space
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Yep.
Semi-daft question Castle -
Is this a Database type fix so actve right away, or does it have to filter through the internal QA -> test -> live flow chart ?
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I think everything has to filter through that process, database fixes are just faster because they take less time to implement.
Now that's interesting. An initial op featuring six single-target attacks leads to the discovery of an AOE defense bug...
Nice work Castle, and interested data-gatherers.
Just in case it's not said enough - _Castle_ you rock!
Thanks for being upfront about it!
Can't say I'm surprised.
As I posted earlier in this thread, being dark blast I would miss tons (pretty much always) on my aoes (TT and nightfall).
Good to know it's being fixed as they made missions with night widows quite frustrating.
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Poster: _Castle_
.
Well, considering there is a decimal error in their AoE Defense (250% instead of 25%), I'm not surprised the Rain of Arrows missed a ton. I'll fix it today.
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Watches _Castle_ walk off then starts thinking. Evasion is 25% too...
OMIGawd Evasion may be at 250% too!!!
(Virtue/Champion) Neil Fracas: Inv/SS
(Virtue) Gideon Fontaine: MA/SR (Sc), Generic Hero 114: Ice/Cold, Marcus Tyler AR/En, Project F: Spines/DA (S)
(Champion) Jenna Sidal BS/SD, Generic Hero 114: En/En (Bl), Loganne Claws/WP (Sc)
Well, I guess that makes Peteroid and Dogstar look like the insulting trolls they are.....better luck next time.
Perhaps it isnt only the devs that need to apologize sometimes.
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Well, considering there is a decimal error in their AoE Defense (250% instead of 25%), I'm not surprised the Rain of Arrows missed a ton. I'll fix it today.
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So whos leg do I have to hump to get a 250% defence?
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Night Widows have evasion, the SR's massive boost to AE defense...
Well I think that solves that :P
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Solves which?
That the night widows have something like 400% defense or to-hit debuff going on?
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GG No re
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So you're telling me that 35% def to AoEs is making -4s dodge 30 some odd ticks of 130%acc ?
--Suichiro
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As I recall it, the Defense first lowers from your to-hit chance, and therefore could potentially floor it. Then you get to add in Inspirations and Enhancements, but it may be too late if it's floored already.
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I have a base 55% chance to hit the Night Widow I mentioned. Say she has enough defense to floor me - 5%. Now I have approximately +33% accuracy, which raises that to 6% maybe. (if I have it backwards, the difference is microscopic).
Now, I add 91% to-hit buffs with the insight and build up, which caps at 95%.
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And it's possible that, just as NPC Brawl does a ridiculously higher level of damage than PC Brawl, NPC Evasion is much stronger than PC evasion. Remember that their Unstoppable doesn't crash, that MoG is about 90% resists, etc. They didn't suffer the Global Defense Nerf, we did.
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Yes, but against MoG and Elude, I would have capped to-hit because buffs are applied after defense.
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Sample size is too small to draw such a conclusion. Short run statistics lie, once again:
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Sorry, I'm going to stick with my intuition here.
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Yeah, wouldn't want the FACTS to cloud your judgement...LOL
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Those weren't facts. Those were statistics based on assumptions on top of a nastygram about how my sample size was too small to conclude that my accuracy was floored.
I've seen floored and capped accuracy in action. I know what it looks like. That fight looked like floored accuracy. Who cares about some lies and damned lies when we're not talking about statistics but a real event? No one cares unless we're actually trying to establish exact numbers, k?
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Now that's interesting. An initial op featuring six single-target attacks leads to the discovery of an AOE defense bug...
Nice work Castle, and interested data-gatherers.
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It is kind of weird. But cool, too.
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*cough*
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How's that foot taste? 
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I have a base 55% chance to hit the Night Widow I mentioned. Say she has enough defense to floor me - 5%. Now I have approximately +33% accuracy, which raises that to 6% maybe. (if I have it backwards, the difference is microscopic).
Now, I add 91% to-hit buffs with the insight and build up, which caps at 95%.
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That's backwards, but also meaninglessly so. 55% base to hit and 91% tohit buffs means 146% base tohit before accuracy. To get anything approaching flooring you would require on the order of 140%+ defense and tohit debuffs combined. Nothing I know of has a combination of defense and tohit debuffs on the order of 140%, which is why I thought it was a bad luck streak. But if its happening repeatably, then its more likely a bug.
To be honest, I've been noticing some accuracy oddities on both blood widows and night widows. Actually, anything that flies in general. Not terribly blatant ones like you are mentioning, but oddities nontheless. For instance, I'm perceiving (but haven't accurately measured) a hint that powers like brawl are hitting hovering targets more often than ranged attacks. I haven't gotten around to conducting a real controlled test yet, but of course it seems everything that hovers gets a lot more defense from hover than we do (i.e. rikti drones). Which doesn't quite explain brawl.
Honestly, its been hard to set aside hard core testing time when I have somewhat less playing time than I used to (more busy with work).
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That's backwards, but also meaninglessly so. 55% base to hit and 91% tohit buffs means 146% base tohit before accuracy. To get anything approaching flooring you would require on the order of 140%+ defense and tohit debuffs combined. Nothing I know of has a combination of defense and tohit debuffs on the order of 140%, which is why I thought it was a bad luck streak. But if its happening repeatably, then its more likely a bug.
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It is not possible to have a miss streak that long with capped accuracy, which discounts the idea of bad luck, or should have right off the bat.
If I'd had something like 1 hit, 2 misses, 1 hit, 2 misses, I would've been annoyed, but not like "miss x 6 + 1 hit"
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how bout on the night widows you get rid of the -acc perma smoke grenades while your at it..cause in glad matches you got villains stacking 3 per team now..and its just a waste of time.
so either get me a death mage or NERF THE WIDOWS!!! 
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That's backwards, but also meaninglessly so. 55% base to hit and 91% tohit buffs means 146% base tohit before accuracy. To get anything approaching flooring you would require on the order of 140%+ defense and tohit debuffs combined. Nothing I know of has a combination of defense and tohit debuffs on the order of 140%, which is why I thought it was a bad luck streak. But if its happening repeatably, then its more likely a bug.
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It is not possible to have a miss streak that long with capped accuracy, which discounts the idea of bad luck, or should have right off the bat.
If I'd had something like 1 hit, 2 misses, 1 hit, 2 misses, I would've been annoyed, but not like "miss x 6 + 1 hit"
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Its possible, especially across all players, to see an event like that. At first, I thought the streakbreaker would make it extremely unlikely, because the only way for this to happen would be for someone to switch from very low accuracy to very high accuracy, so it can only happen under those conditions. But in fact, thats exactly what's happening when you go from attacking something with base 55% chance to hit and possibly high defense to +91% tohit buffs. It could happen *once* if you hit the lottery (my guestimate is that this scenario might happen to someone somewhere once or twice a year). Anything above two people seeing this phenomenon would place it outside the realm of reasonable probability, though.
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Its possible, especially across all players, to see an event like that. At first, I thought the streakbreaker would make it extremely unlikely, because the only way for this to happen would be for someone to switch from very low accuracy to very high accuracy, so it can only happen under those conditions. But in fact, thats exactly what's happening when you go from attacking something with base 55% chance to hit and possibly high defense to +91% tohit buffs. It could happen *once* if you hit the lottery (my guestimate is that this scenario might happen to someone somewhere once or twice a year). Anything above two people seeing this phenomenon would place it outside the realm of reasonable probability, though.
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That's not what happened. I conned the boss, lost targeting, targeted her again, lost targeting, hit an insight, hit build up, and started the attack chain. I hadn't attacked prior to buffing my accuracy.
I know for a fact that I've said this at least once. I have this habit where I don't hit bosses - especially purple bosses - until I've hit build up.
So, er, no way to get that miss streak on 95% accuracy.
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That's backwards, but also meaninglessly so. 55% base to hit and 91% tohit buffs means 146% base tohit before accuracy. To get anything approaching flooring you would require on the order of 140%+ defense and tohit debuffs combined.
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I forgot this:
My recollection of the math is not perfect, but defense and accuracy debuffs appear to be more effective against accuracy + enhancements (base accuracy *1.enhancements) than against to-hit buffs. I've always found - for example - +25% to-hit buff to be more valuable than +33% total accuracy (or a 25% boost over 75%).
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That's backwards, but also meaninglessly so. 55% base to hit and 91% tohit buffs means 146% base tohit before accuracy. To get anything approaching flooring you would require on the order of 140%+ defense and tohit debuffs combined.
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I forgot this:
My recollection of the math is not perfect, but defense and accuracy debuffs appear to be more effective against accuracy + enhancements (base accuracy *1.enhancements) than against to-hit buffs. I've always found - for example - +25% to-hit buff to be more valuable than +33% total accuracy (or a 25% boost over 75%).
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That's actually well understood because the accuracy ehancements (and inherent bonuses like MA and Archery get) are multiplicitaive on the net total of tohitbuffs, tohitDebuffs, and foe defense. If tohitDebuffs and foe defense floor you, or even just come "pretty close" to cancelling your base toHit, then all those multipliers are multiplying a very small number.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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That's actually well understood because the accuracy ehancements (and inherent bonuses like MA and Archery get) are multiplicitaive on the net total of tohitbuffs, tohitDebuffs, and foe defense. If tohitDebuffs and foe defense floor you, or even just come "pretty close" to cancelling your base toHit, then all those multipliers are multiplying a very small number.
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Uh, yes, like the math I posted said.
Nevermind, it apparently does not matter what I say, it'll get nitpicked to death and relevant points will be ignored. 
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Uh, yes, like the math I posted said.
Nevermind, it apparently does not matter what I say, it'll get nitpicked to death and relevant points will be ignored.
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Um, I don't really see any significant math in your post. I read the formula you gave as shorthand, not an equation. You commented that you'd sort of forgotten the math, so I was explaining it.
If that's not what you meant, sorry. In that case it's not clear to me what you were saying.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Uh, yes, like the math I posted said.
Nevermind, it apparently does not matter what I say, it'll get nitpicked to death and relevant points will be ignored.
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Um, I don't really see any significant math in your post. I read the formula you gave as shorthand, not an equation. You commented that you'd sort of forgotten the math, so I was explaining it.
If that's not what you meant, sorry. In that case it's not clear to me what you were saying.
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Well, I did say having an SO in an attack would leave me with about 6% accuracy after getting floored and multiplied.
Sorry, I was a bit on the defensive after Arcana's posts - which were intended to be helpful, but the second covered something I'd already addressed. 
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And *THAT* is why we love Castle.