Oh, and BTW ... since the _Castle_ post makes it clear that Controllers Control and Defenders Buff/Debuff and that's what makes the difference not the Primary/Secondary-ness of a set ... how is a Pet control?
Dark Servent is a buffing/debuffing pet (buffing HP); if "is it control or is it buff/debuff" is the litmus test then why doesn't Fluffy have the same perks as a controller pet (duration primarily)? The logic presented breaks down here.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it untrue to say that, across the board , blasters primaries are stronger than defender secondaries, tanker primaries are stronger than scrapper secondaries, scrapper primaries are stronger than tanker secondaries, and controller primaries are just plain unique and incomparable.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's somewhat akin to the following:
A Scrapper using a Defense power that does damage would deal more damage than a Tanker using that power in his Primary.
A Tanker using an attack that raises his Defense would get more bonus than a Scrapper. (Unfortunately, the only attack for which this applies is Parry, and weapon Tankers don't get it)
A Defender using a Secondary that debuffs an enemy should get a greater (or longer duration) debuff. (Sonic Attack is probably the only real example of this, although Rad's -Def debuff would theoretically apply. Plus, Electric was intentionally changed to drain more End for Defenders)
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, these examples are all pretty much true (Scrapper damage auras do more dmg than tanker ones, defender secondaries are better at debuffing, blaster secondary melee attacks do more damage overall than scrapper ones, etc.
I think really, what the problem not that controllers are better with defender control powers. It's twofold:
1. There's not enough difference between the debuffs, buffs and heals between the two classes to make much difference.
Take say damage resist debuffs. If one enervating field adds on average 33% damage, and one adds 25%, that's a total of 133 vs 125 damage done on a base 100 points of damage. Its not a difference of 25%, it's only really a difference of about 10% in effectiveness changed. Same for say siphon power or fulcrum shift.
Now I'm a controller mainly, so I don't think they should be skewered in their secondaries, but I will say I wouldn't particularly mind going from a base of 75% debuffs and heals to a base of 65%. It just isn't going to affect my life that much, accounting for the fact that my controls from storm are indeed better.
But I think that 10% or so is all that should be adjusted on the controller end at most, because I know most people aren't storm and any more would be really unfair to emp, kin or rad controllers for example.
But, also, given that ed cut defender buff effectiveness by essentially 50% across the board for enhancable buffs, heals and debuffs, perhaps there's enough room for say a 10% increase to defender buffs and debuffs as well? Say for all non-damage, non damage resist buffs, debuffs, and heals they're a base 10% better than now. That would put the maximum attainable buff still well below what was possible pre-ed, but if both the above were done defenders would be almost twice as good at buffing and debuffing non-damage things as compared to controllers while still not competing with blasters at damage.
Blasters and scrappers were given a similar boost to damage when ED was implemented (either directly or indirectly), why not help defenders a bit too?
2. Defender secondaries' secondary effects need to be looked at. I'd like to see the debuff/end drain/etc effects increased to more noticable levels (even if we have to lose debuff enhancability of those powers to keep it from being abusable). I'd like to see archery give some sort of defense debuff or similar thing to make it more comparable to the other sets. Right now the effects are trivial, if I'm hitting a target chaining both of the single target dark blasts and night falls I'd like to really notice that he isn't hitting much. If I'm throwing mental blast, tk blast, and will domination on someone he should noticably be not attacking very much. If I hit someone with 4 or 5 electric attacks he should pretty much be end drained.
I'm talking like something in the range of say a 20% unenhancable stackable debuff for single target attacks, and 10% for area affect attacks, or something of the like, variable by attack power of course, with a long duration. I should reasonably be able to get a boss near the to-hit floor by dumping 5 or 6 single target dark attacks on him (considering this takes a good 30 seconds to do). The recharge cap should be reachable with 5 or 6 psi attacks (what, I can permasleep someone almost with will domination but I can't make him attack less?). 5 or 6 single target elec attacks should reasonably drain a boss. Energy should have high enough knockback chances that you can keep someone off their feet most of the time by focusing all 3 attacks on them.
You get the idea. This would help defenders so much, it would give them a real secondary powerset and it would justify them actually blasting a bit in groups.
[ QUOTE ]
However, I stand firm on the notion that when defenders get control-oriented powers, those powers should on average be less powerful than controller control powers, and controllers vice versa should have less effective buffing and debuffing, and I could care less whether they show up in a primary or secondary. My position is that whether a power shows up in a primary or secondary set is less important than which AT is wielding it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then Defenders will always be worse than Controllers.
Look at Storm, for instance. A Defender two powers, O2 Boost and Steamy Mist, that are stronger than a Controller version of the power all around.
Two powers, Hurricane and Freezing Rain, that have a debuff (-accuracy and -resistance) that are stronger for a Defender, and the rest are stronger for a controller, or the same. But let's say those are better for a Defender overall. It has two more powers that do damage, LS and Tornado. For mechanical reasons, even if they do more damage per tick for a Defender, both of those powers will do more damage overall for a Controller. They both have secondary effects that are stronger for a Controller. Let's say those are even, overall.
Then it has Gale, Snowstorm, and Thunderclap, that are stronger for a Controller.
A Controller has 3 powers from the Storm set that are stronger than a Defender version, 4 powers that overall roughly balance out (let's say, IMO 2 of those are better for Controllers), and 2 powers that are stronger for a Defender.
It's hard to look at that set and see how the Defender version is better than the Controller, let alone 25% better. If "control" aspects of powers are going to be stronger for a Controller, this set will never be significantly stronger, if it's stronger at all, for a Defender. It will make it virtually impossible to make many Defender sets equal to a Controller's version, since the buff/debuff powers would have to be enormously better - and incredibly unbalancing - to get the set 25% better as a whole.
I don't see how that can work.
[ QUOTE ]
My overall thoughts on this basically boil down to my perception that Controllers shouldn't have Defender Primaries for their Secondary sets.
<snip examples>
Controller powers don't have this with the possible exception of Ice/Storm and maybe (pushing it) Grav/Kin. This makes controller power set selection more of a mechanical issue (how the mechanics of the power sets complement each other) than a conceptial one (how the ideas of the power sets complement each other). A great example of this is the (once, I'm not sure anymore since I haven't kept up) UBER Illusion/Storm set ... [censored] - how do Illusion and Weather powers fit together without coming up with some convluted explanation? They don't .. the build works like magic, the concept - not so much.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been saying this since launch. Last time I grumbled about it was in oh, October or so, and a bunch of people said, "Wait till COV, doms are what you want."
Well that's nice, but that does ZIP to fix the problem that, still to this day, controllers' powersets are not conceptually well-blended. I can think of a few -- your Ice/Storm and Grav/Kin examples are great. And Mind/Empathy, if you really want to stretch it (empathy being technically a form of ESP as 'empathy' is normaly defined, but not really as it is implemented in COH). But for instance, what does one combine with earth control? I would think Earth/Earth would make sense but there is no such thing, because there's no "earth defender" set. And oh how I wanted to have a fire/ice or ice/fire controller -- I mean you can do it with blasters so why not? But nope. Or heck just fire/fire or ice/ice. Again, in all the other power sets, you can take secondaries and primaries that "match" -- fire/fire tankers, MA/SR scrappers, Dark/Dark defenders and scrappers, ice/ice tankers, Invuln/SS tankers, fire/fire blasters, ice/ice blasters, energy-energy blasters.
There is just no such synergy for controllers. We have it for doms -- Plant/Thorn, Mind/Psi, Ice/fire, fire/ice, ice/ice, fire/fire, etc, etc.... just not for controllers.
It seems almost like controllers were put together as an afterthought, and like you, I have not ever been able to make up and stick with a controller because there just was never a concept I could shoehorn into the controller powersets.
/sigh
F
[ QUOTE ]
Is it untrue to say that, across the board , blasters primaries are stronger than defender secondaries,...
...I thought I read way back when that defender secondary mez-type effects were more powerful than the blaster primary mez effects. Is this the trade-off? Why do I still feel like it's the short end of the stick?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you answered the question yourself. My understanding is that the secondary-debuffing effects of blaster primaries are stronger for defenders; for instance defenders drain more with Short-Circuit than a comparable blaster would.
Whether or not the current system is a good idea balance-wise is questionable but defender debuffs do seem stronger than other AT debuffs just as controller control-effects seem stronger than other AT control-effects.
Pinnacle
Glowworm * Brrr * Lilinoe
Protector
Kid Trance * Ms. Impala * Red Helen
Virtue
Pooka Pete
[ QUOTE ]
Explaining why you made a mistake does not excuse the fact that you flat out told prominent members of the community that they were lying.
[/ QUOTE ]
what exactly is a 'prominent member of the community"?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Explaining why you made a mistake does not excuse the fact that you flat out told prominent members of the community that they were lying.
[/ QUOTE ]
what exactly is a 'prominent member of the community"?
[/ QUOTE ]
That would be defined as Erratic.
You know, this is sort of off topic for this thread, but now there *are* fire defense sets and ice defense sets.
Perhaps Thermal resonance and cold domination should be added for controllers for the sake of flavor?
I think grav/kinetics, grav/force field, and grav/sonics already go together well (rather obvious how these could be connected, as well as mind/kinetics (telekinesis), mind/emp (empathy).
Earth/storm makes perfect sense together as well.
Props to you for addressing an unpleasant issue and hopefully putting it to utterly, completely, finally to bed forever.
You've done a lot of good work and youve been a great addition to the Dev postings in the CoX forums.
I sincerely hope that posts which contain language like the most disheartening developer post, lack of an apology, appalling absence of manners, does not excuse etc, etc, etc, do not reduce your spirits or wear you down.
I cant apologize for other posters, but unfortunately some people cannot let go of an issue even when the issue has been resolved to the satisfaction of the original problem. Unfortunately, there appear to exemplary, sainted people who have never, ever make even a single mistake walking among us and unfortunately those people dont seem to realize that other more ordinary, more mortal, actually human people can actually make a slip every now and then. Unfortunately events which are subject to interpretation are often taken in the most negative light possible. And unfortunately people can be a lot more acidic on message boards then they would be in real life. Things which should just be dropped arent.
Please do not let these goings on bring you down or change your posting habits in any way shape or form.
You and the good work you do is sincerely appreciated.
[ QUOTE ]
...how do Illusion and Weather powers fit together without coming up with some convluted explanation?
[/ QUOTE ]
Ghost Pirates.
Pinnacle
Glowworm * Brrr * Lilinoe
Protector
Kid Trance * Ms. Impala * Red Helen
Virtue
Pooka Pete
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...how do Illusion and Weather powers fit together without coming up with some convluted explanation?
[/ QUOTE ]
Ghost Pirates.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lol, yes! Now if only heroes could be pirates.
[ QUOTE ]
It seems almost like controllers were put together as an afterthought
[/ QUOTE ]
They were. They were added late in the beta process, after the other four ATs had been worked on for some time. Granted, they probably existed in some stage of design before we heard of them, but there's no question that they became fully formed later than the other ATs, and were still being finalized when the other ATs existed basically as we know them now.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems almost like controllers were put together as an afterthought
[/ QUOTE ]
They were. They were added late in the beta process, after the other four ATs had been worked on for some time. Granted, they probably existed in some stage of design before we heard of them, but there's no question that they became fully formed later than the other ATs, and were still being finalized when the other ATs existed basically as we know them now.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which brings up an interesting point. Over the course of CoH, defenders have seen relatively little change. Sure, powersets were changed here or there, but the AT as a whole has hardly changed at all. Instead, everything's been changing around defenders.
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, defender powers are aimed at reducing the effectiveness of a foe. Controller powers look more to incapacitate a foe [...]
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT (Well, IMO truth)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
* Bug: When an attack misses its target, aggro is generated when the attack begins. This is problematic when using a power with a long activation time (such as Ice Arrow); aggro is generated and you are subject to "return" fire before the attack is actually launched. The character is rooted in place until the animation finishes. (If the attack actually hits, no aggro is generated until the attack lands; this is when a miss should generate aggro as well). This bug is not limited to the Trick Arrow set, but impacts the set more than others due to its many powers with long animation times. (Concern, Goofy_Parrot)
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the way the combat engine works. Fixing this would require rewriting the whole thing. This is not likely to change.
[/ QUOTE ]
Translation: We were utterly incompetent from the very beginnign, so screw you, players. Just give us your money and shut up, we're not going to fix this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Cool that you can plan so well for the future that the repercussions of all your decisions today are known to you so far in advance. However, I must note that with such a unique gift, it's particularly unbecoming of you to belittle the rest of us who don't come equipped with such prescience as yours. Understand that for everyone except you, we have to make plans for the future in imperfect conditions, where we can't foresee everything that will change between now and the time where our work is complete.
Or maybe you've just never worked on anything bigger than a ill-thought-out two-sentence idiot post.
[ QUOTE ]
Which brings up an interesting point. Over the course of CoH, defenders have seen relatively little change. Sure, powersets were changed here or there, but the AT as a whole has hardly changed at all. Instead, everything's been changing around defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is exactly what I was getting at earlier as well. The only thing I think is really wrong with defenders is just that they've been left behind as the game has changed. Controllers have been given more damage, blasters have been given more hit points, tanks and scrappers have been balanced and rebalanced, and of course all ATs were hit with the big nerfbat of ED... The whole game has become more PvP focused as well. Defenders haven't really been looked at in the context of how the game's evolved. So we're left with mediocre damage, long recharges, various strategies and playstyles that no longer work thanks to ED, and poor performance in PvP. In any case, it's not that I think defenders are bad, they just need some buffing to compete in the current game environment.
I of the electric blaster school have a complaint. Electric defenders drain more end than blasters. So no, there are cases where blasters get hosed. If defender blasts are supposed to have more effect, then why don't Energy defenders do more Knockback?
Player fuzzy logic. 
If you think oddies only hose you.
[ QUOTE ]
This may have been stated by others (and possibly better), but am I the only one that think it's screwy that controller secondaries can in some way function better than defender primaries? Isn't this unfair to the Defender AT? Is it untrue to say that, across the board , blasters primaries are stronger than defender secondaries, tanker primaries are stronger than scrapper secondaries, scrapper primaries are stronger than tanker secondaries, and controller primaries are just plain unique and incomparable.
[/ QUOTE ]
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
As of now I have went ahead and posted a warning for those making AT's on our website.
[ QUOTE ]
This isn't to bash Defenfenders, create an argument, etc.
As of this time if you are planning on making a Defender you would be better off making a Controller. You get more Damage, better Damage Mitigation, and in alot of situations your powers operate 25% better. Just a fair warning for those who are planning on creating a defender in this group.
[/ QUOTE ]
At least I can put up a warning with confidence.
[ QUOTE ]
As of now I have went ahead and posted a warning for those making AT's on our website.
[ QUOTE ]
This isn't to bash Defenfenders, create an argument, etc.
As of this time if you are planning on making a Defender you would be better off making a Controller. You get more Damage, better Damage Mitigation, and in alot of situations your powers operate 25% better. Just a fair warning for those who are planning on creating a defender in this group.
[/ QUOTE ]
At least I can put up a warning with confidence.
[/ QUOTE ]
it's funny cuz it's true.
well, sorta' funny...
[ QUOTE ]
I of the electric blaster school have a complaint. Electric defenders drain more end than blasters. So no, there are cases where blasters get hosed.
[/ QUOTE ]
But blasters really don't get hosed because the increased damage that blasters get by far outshines the increased drain that defenders get. The main purpose of these blast powers is to do damage. The -end is a rather minor secondary effect in all but one power (short circuit).
Now, if there was an Electric Blast power that did nothing but drain endurance, and defenders did it better, then you'd have an argument.
[ QUOTE ]
I of the electric blaster school have a complaint. Electric defenders drain more end than blasters. So no, there are cases where blasters get hosed.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are most certainly not being hosed, because with those same blasts you do 54% more damage, your Aim and Build Up boost you 125% more and your damage cap is 25% higher.
Please try to keep the big picture of what your AT does in context. Blasters do damage. Defenders mess with foe effectiveness. That you do (significantly) more damage and they mess with foes more is perfectly in line.
[ QUOTE ]
If defender blasts are supposed to have more effect, then why don't Energy defenders do more Knockback?
[/ QUOTE ]
Castle specificaly stated that no AT does knockback better than any other.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Contents edited because it's not helpful to the discussion.
-FF
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... don't know if the game could support this...
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm almost 100% sure gravity powers' secondary effect is -speed, but no -recharge.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking of things like lingering radiation, and other slows shared between controllers and defenders, but if gravity's slows are all -speed and no -recharge, that would reinforce the notion that controller slows should (in general) be weighted more towards -speed and less towards -recharge, while defenders should get the reverse, rather than having the full combination of -speed/-rech be stronger for controllers than defenders (which doesn't seem to make sense to me regardless of where the powers are located).
[/ QUOTE ]
Tar Patch is -speed, but no -recharge. Prior to the addition of the -res debuff, that's pretty much all it did.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
Does anybody have a good reason to play a Defender now? Anybody?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes....Aim---Fulcrum Shift---Nova,
'nuff said
Castle, along with the rest of the defender community, I'd first like to say thanks for all the time and effort you put into researching all of the various issues listed within our powersets. Unfortunately, most of your responses contained something that we didn't want to hear: that they were working as designed. And, it's particularly troubling that a lot of that information was weighted more toward controllers rather than defenders in regards to effectiveness. As I'm sure you realize, the defender community is now pretty much up in arms in regards to all this.
Without rehashing pretty much everything others have mentioned so far in this thread (since my main hero is a defender, I agree with nearly 100% of it), I'd just like to point out that it supports an opinion that us defenders have held onto for a long time, and that we continue to have. It's this: a controller with holds, mezzes, sleeps, containment, and debuffing abilities that they wield from using a defender primary as a secondary is in a much better position to safeguard and defend a team against incoming threats than a defender. In short, they out-defend defenders. When you throw in the fact that they also get the option at level 41, via Indomitable Will, to provide themselves with a great amount of status defense, the differences between defenders and controllers become even more glaring.