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That's what happens when you enter PvP with a weak build you get destroyed..what difference does it make if it's a stalker doing it or my Grav/Rad slowing you debuffing you and then holding you for 5min..you never got to fight back either...or when I run in with my MA/SR and unsupressed joust you with EC+BU which by the way hits for 802 with crit at level 38...now imagine if I downed a bunch of enrages like the stalkers are doing...your still dead and never had a chance.
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So anyone who cannot see a Stalker coming is a "weak build"?
Do you even realize how FEW powersets are out there that do not have inherent +Perception powers? Tactics does NOT see through Hide/Stealth.
So the other choice is to play a powerset that has auto-hit toggles? That's what, Storm, FF, Stone Armor, Fire Manipulation?
Anything else is a weak build?
You're not making sense. There are lots of builds that can beat Grav/Rad, and they're NOT all dependent on the same powers. But everything that's not "weak" to Stalkers is dependent on anti-Hide powers... whether they're +Perception or auto-hit toggles. You're making a really weak argument by trying to go to Rock/Paper/Scissors. As I said in another post, the problem with that argument isn't that there are no builds that will destroy Stalkers. There are. The problem is that there are very much fewer builds that will beat Stalkers, than will get owned by them. The Rock/Paper/Scissors argument applies only in situations where there are as many rocks as paper and as scissors, so that the overall won-loss record of each type is equivalent. That's not true with Stalkers, and it's far more true with most other powersets. And it's certainly true with other ATs in general... Ice/EM may be great in PvP, but AR/Fire isn't. Meanwhile, you can't pull out a Stalker combo that ISN'T great in PvP.
I agree with this post.
Our SG has a guy in it that hasn't been logging into CoV. Turns out he's been having a ton of fun logging into CoH as his NRG/Ice blaster and going to Bloody Bay to kill Stalkers. It's pretty ridiculous the kill numbers he comes back with.
I think the Stalker debate is one that will be resolved with patience, and I certainly hope that the developers exercise that patience.
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Or does your -valueless- post indicate acceptance with everything aforementioned, excepting of course that most trivial sentence?
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Not really, i just didnt think it was worth commenting on because Castle has already stated that they are changing the coding in game so that any PvP attack that would kill a player in one hit will instead leave them with 1hp. With that in mind almost the entirety of your post was better off ignored.
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Correction here. The 1hp threshhold is only one of the ideas being considered. We've still not determined exactly how we are going to deal with 'One Shot Kills' (and the final decision will almost certainly apply to both PVE and PVP -- so no more AV insta-kills.)
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I do hope that doesn't end up being the solution. Having 1 HP after an alpha is in practice little better than being 1-shot, as a queued followup attack will finish the job, and both players and MOBs with multiple attacks can do this. The real issue at stake is the ability for the attack in question to do that much damage in the first place.
If it came down to the need to balance Assassin Strike, I'd much rather see it become more useful on hard targets, and less useful on soft ones. The best way I could see to do this is to have it ignore a target's DEF and RES, but do less damage, and have a lowered damage cap so that BU and Enrages couldn't be used to guarantee a 1-hit kill.
People need to quit using the ability to see through a Stalker's stealth as justification for their AS damage. It's a bad argument that doesn't do either Stalkers or their targets any good, because the result is an almost purely binary encounter.
I see through Stalker's stealth = I win
I don't see through Stalker's stealth = I get AS'd = I lose
This isn't good for anyone. It's not fair for a Stalker to be at an overwhelming disadvantage if someone sees through his stealth, and it's not fair for anyone else for the Stalker to be at an overwhelming advantage if they don't. It's impossible to balance. The result is an arms race between Stealth and Perception, and whoever's on top gets nerfed. It's already happened with IR Goggles, because they were too effective in seeing through stealth.
I agree. A better way to determine perception and stealth would be great. Make it a to-hit roll of sorts.
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I agree. A better way to determine perception and stealth would be great. Make it a to-hit roll of sorts.
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I suggested that in beta: make -perception defense, and +perception a form of tohit bonus, and calibrate the scale so that at regular intervals, a target gets a tohit roll to break stealth.
Because this would be happening in ticks, the actual chances of breaking stealth would have to be low, otherwise it would be broken while you were still approaching the target. Below a certain threshold, stealth can't be broken at all, and above a certain threshold, you break it automatically, but within reasonable bounds, there's always a chance to break stealth.
The mechanics of such a thing are tricky to set up to be fair to the stalkers. My guess is that the way for it to work that makes the most sense is for there to be a chance to break it based on the distance from the stalker, and at ticks, perhaps every five seconds. So as the stalker approaches, you get one chance to break stealth as he gets within certain radii, and separate from that, you get a chance to break stealth every five seconds if he just stands there.
However, separate from that, even if you break stealth, you still have to continue to "hit" through stealth to maintain visibility: if you fail a perception test, the stalker drops out of perception again.
The main problem with this idea is that it might cause a lot of processor burn and lag: the mere presence of stalkers would suddenly jump the lag in the zone. In fact, that might even tip you off to the fact that a stalker was tracking you.
There is another issue, and that is the issue of the mechanics of hide. If we get to a point where *anyone* has a chance to break hide, then I think the ten second window to rehide is too long: it seems to be predicated on the notion that since being hidden is such an advantage, it has a high cost to establish. If people can break hide much easier, stalkers ought to be able to establish hide much easier as well.
This is not a simple thread to untangle.
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I'm so mixed with my feelings on the Stalker class that I just feel they were a bad choice to bring into COV as a AT. The players and Devs will have issues trying to ballance it out for a while to come.
I have been ganked by a team of upto 5 stalkers at a time and just come down to the understanding, there are people that will always enjoy being a bully. I have more respect for a one vs one battle where the players are evenly matched and player experiance with decide the out come over a thug that tosses sand in my eyes and pulls out a bat to a fight. Thats where I stand, a fair fight and you win you also win my respect. You jump me where I have no chance to win I look in my chat window grab your name, add it to friends list and then call up the SG mates to come back and make your life misable everytime you log in. (only a few have felt that beating).
So can you blame a AT where they were designed to be weak enough that they need to fight someone whos not even aware they are about to be attacked ( glass jaw blasters fall into this class just like the stalker). OR do you blame the player behind it that will gank with a tanker if he could for all he cares mostly get the at class nerfed .
Remember to keep the the skates on the ice ...
I thought you couldn't add villains to your friends list? It always gives me that message when I try.
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In Beta I read all the threads saying Stalkers were overpowered in PVP. Now that I have played a Stalker in Bloody Bay extensively, I can say that Stalkers are only invincible when they bottom-feed. If I search far and wide for that lone defender plinking away at some turrets for their mission, sure I kill them with no risk. On the other hand, when I engage in team battles, I have to be very careful to even get a kill. Often times I am killed trying to escape after a kill.
I expect the good Stalkers will get relatively few kills with relatively few deaths. The bad ones will get impatient and die a lot. In short, Stalkers are balanced in PVE and PVP.
They are perhaps the best solo AT in PVP and the worst in groups.
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That's basically what it comes down to. I hate the 'concept' of Stalkers but...
In BB it was a group of us goodies fighting a group of badies right at their base door. They couldn't even get into the PvP zone without us there ready to beat the crap out of them.
I was using my WS and thought I was safe in DNova hovering over the fight blasting things. Well... apparently this one stalker opted to take the fly pool and the next thing I know I'm out of form plummeting face first into the ground. So now I know there's a stalker out there and that he can fly or hover.
Well I get back to the fight and hover way way above the fight for a few and keep moving around. Sure enough after a minute I see the stalker suddenly appear behind the tank.
Target and open fire. He was dead before he could get near anything in the base that would have stopped me and saved him.
Point being: It sucked not knowing if/when/where I was going to get slammed by a stalker. Once he revealed himself and his little fly 'trick' I knew what to look for made his life miserable after that. He killed me once, AS'ed me twice (he managed to get me a second time but I lived) and I killed him like 10 times. He also didn't get in anymore kills for the rest of the battle. (Though that was mostly his bad trying to keep taking out the tank.)
So... the way I see it is people hate stalkers because stalkers can neutralize someone outright. No one wants that. No one wants to run around fearing being one-shotted or reduced to 1 hp and then killed off by a meager second shot.
However, once that stalker is exposed he's done.
Anyway that's how I see it (as far as team PvP'ing goes.)
One on one stalkers have a definate advantage if you're not geared with any or enough +perception but if you live and can target him... well Stalkers aren't tanks or scrappers in the defense dept.
Ball Lightning
I have one MAJOR complaint with stalkers.I was in Sirens with a team of 2 controllers 1 blaster and a scrapper.Im an earth troller so im standing in every single acc debuff i can lay down,then as expected a stalker goes for the AS i have tactics and IR running i nvr saw him and he one shots me with 3 AoE's running around him.Thats no biggie the problem was even with a grav troller tagging him NO ONE could stop him from running away NO ONE.
So back to the team i go another stalker AS's me through my debuffs AGAIN one shots me and again no one can stop him from running.I couldnt care less if he kills one of us,BUT my problem is i think i have managed to actually kill a stalker without them running TWICE thats pretty lame if u ask me.People say get a team well i did and he killed me and ran and no one ever got im and thats with me having tactics and IR goggles on and i nvr saw it(Im guessing a crap load of grant invis,which no one even bothers to mention).
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I have one MAJOR complaint with stalkers.I was in Sirens with a team of 2 controllers 1 blaster and a scrapper.Im an earth troller so im standing in every single acc debuff i can lay down,then as expected a stalker goes for the AS i have tactics and IR running i nvr saw him and he one shots me with 3 AoE's running around him.Thats no biggie the problem was even with a grav troller tagging him NO ONE could stop him from running away NO ONE.
So back to the team i go another stalker AS's me through my debuffs AGAIN one shots me and again no one can stop him from running.I couldnt care less if he kills one of us,BUT my problem is i think i have managed to actually kill a stalker without them running TWICE thats pretty lame if u ask me.People say get a team well i did and he killed me and ran and no one ever got im and thats with me having tactics and IR goggles on and i nvr saw it(Im guessing a crap load of grant invis,which no one even bothers to mention).
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I hear ya' but can't blame to guy for not being stupid. A stalker is NOT a scrapper or tank. He doesn't carry their defenses. A stalker has two strengths: Assassin striking and the ability to divert aggro away. I'd be lying if I said I knew how placate works (never got a stalker that high) but it's either limited AoE (since the stalker I kept beating to hell never managed to placate me as I was hovering above and at a bit of range) or single target only.
So assuming it's AoE you know you don't want to stay grouped because he can AS, placate the group and run and be hidden or gone by the time you can target him. If it's single target only then something went wrong with being able to stop him. (Maybe he dropped a couple break-frees or whatever or had his defenses and resistances boosted with insps.) I guess I got it 'easy' because Dark Nova has pretty decent range and while the stalker I was getting was managing to increase the gap between us it wasn't far enough fast enough to escape me. My last shot fired right before he got out of my range on several occassions.
However, frustrating as it is... running was his only chance. One on one he was no match for a Dark Nova and his only chance was to try and run out of range or where he could hide again.
Anyway it just makes me think of Druids in WoW. If you're not familiar with them or the game, they're one of the hardest classes to hold. They suck (to be against) in Capture the Flag because once they have your flag you can't stop them... you can only hope to kill them before they're out of range. Reason: Druids can shape-shift and an 'inherint' of shape-shifting is shaking off any slow or immob affects. Grab your flag, shift to cat form, whack my speed and run for the door. Get slowed, shift back to elf form and immedietly shift to travel form (as I'm outside by this time[can only go travel form outdoors]). Held, swift-shift out/back into travel form and the hold is neutralized. You aren't stopping me. You're only hitting me with overwhelming damage and dropping me before I get away or you're watching me enter my base with your flag. Gotta' treat stalkers the same way. The second they reveal themselves if you can you've got to target them and lay waste to them. If you let them get away you've gotta' accept they're going to come back and with a vengeance.
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I'd be lying if I said I knew how placate works (never got a stalker that high) but it's either limited AoE (since the stalker I kept beating to hell never managed to placate me as I was hovering above and at a bit of range) or single target only.
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The power, Placate, is single target only. If I placate you, all your buddies can still see me. If any of your buddies register a hit on me, the placate effect is broken.
Now, the Ninjitsu secondary power set also has a power called Smoke Flash. Smoke Flash is an PBAoE. It has a long animation and will only affect enemies in a small circle around the Stalker, essentially melee range. Smoke Flash also does NOT give the Stalker his Hidden status back like Placate does. So, Smoke Flash cannot be used to immediately get another Assasin Strike off.
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If I placate you, all your buddies can still see me.
[/ QUOTE ] That's not correct. I tested this in Siren's. Had a Stalker Placate a mob...and he disappeared. Without a perception power, the hide will start about 5 seconds after the placate and is timed to expire with the placate effect.
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Anyway it just makes me think of Druids in WoW.
[/ QUOTE ] Just out of curiosity, can Druids one shot squishies and two shot scrapper types in WoW?
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Anyway it just makes me think of Druids in WoW.
[/ QUOTE ] Just out of curiosity, can Druids one shot squishies and two shot scrapper types in WoW?
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If they can they're better than me. (Well maybe if I was in Warsong Gulch at a 9 level gap above a squishy I might be able to...)
The point I was trying to make was RE them running. It's just good strategy for what they are. Standing and fighting a group of heroes would just be stupid unless they had major team support.
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The point I was trying to make was ...
[/ QUOTE ] I think the point that the other person was trying to make was that it's one thing to be able to one-shot me, but it's quite another thing to be able to do that and get away so easily and consistently. In other words give them one or the other but not both. In your example you talk about Druids as if to say, that's what Druids do too...but WoW isn't combining that escapability with the ability to one-shot squishies (or scrappers given rages).
WoW's mechanics are way different than CoH. Mez powers/protection are totally different and people don't have the travel powers like we do in CoH. In addition, the PvP zones aren't level limited like in CoH so someone with inviso can still be seen by higher levels who may be in the area and who can also one-shot them before they get away.
The point being is it's not really fair to compare WoW and CoH without looking at the entire picture of the how and why WoW does it the way they do.
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The point I was trying to make was ...
[/ QUOTE ] I think the point that the other person was trying to make was that it's one thing to be able to one-shot me, but it's quite another thing to be able to do that and get away so easily and consistently. In other words give them one or the other but not both. In your example you talk about Druids as if to say, that's what Druids do too...but WoW isn't combining that escapability with the ability to one-shot squishies (or scrappers given rages).
WoW's mechanics are way different than CoH. Mez powers/protection are totally different and people don't have the travel powers like we do in CoH. In addition, the PvP zones aren't level limited like in CoH so someone with inviso can still be seen by higher levels who may be in the area and who can also one-shot them before they get away.
The point being is it's not really fair to compare WoW and CoH without looking at the entire picture of the how and why WoW does it the way they do.
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Fine let me put this in simple english:
WoW: Me druid, I got your flag and you lack the ability to stop me then you kill me as fast as you can or accept you screwed up by letting me get away.
CoH/V: Me stalker, I got your butt and you lack the ability to stop me then you kill me as fast as you can or accept you screwed up by letting me get away.
Is my point clearer now? You accept what you can/can't do (as in WoW you can't hold/immob etc a druid) and change your strategy for it. Adapt your strategy for the situation.
You got a stalker you can't slow/immob then you hit him with overwhelming damage as fast as you can and hope it's enough.
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The point I was trying to make was ...
[/ QUOTE ] I think the point that the other person was trying to make was that it's one thing to be able to one-shot me, but it's quite another thing to be able to do that and get away so easily and consistently. In other words give them one or the other but not both. In your example you talk about Druids as if to say, that's what Druids do too...but WoW isn't combining that escapability with the ability to one-shot squishies (or scrappers given rages).
WoW's mechanics are way different than CoH. Mez powers/protection are totally different and people don't have the travel powers like we do in CoH. In addition, the PvP zones aren't level limited like in CoH so someone with inviso can still be seen by higher levels who may be in the area and who can also one-shot them before they get away.
The point being is it's not really fair to compare WoW and CoH without looking at the entire picture of the how and why WoW does it the way they do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fine let me put this in simple english:
WoW: Me druid, I got your flag and you lack the ability to stop me then you kill me as fast as you can or accept you screwed up by letting me get away.
CoH/V: Me stalker, I got your butt and you lack the ability to stop me then you kill me as fast as you can or accept you screwed up by letting me get away.
Is my point clearer now? You accept what you can/can't do (as in WoW you can't hold/immob etc a druid) and change your strategy for it. Adapt your strategy for the situation.
You got a stalker you can't slow/immob then you hit him with overwhelming damage as fast as you can and hope it's enough.
[/ QUOTE ]No...your'e missing the pont. "Capturing the flag" is not a product of specific powers. There is nothing special about "capturing the flag." EVERY toon can capture the flag in WOW, even if they can't get away. EVERY toon cannot one-shot squishies in CoH.
The poster you responded is pointing that out: the combination of two special abilities. You don't recognize that. Your analogy fails for that reason.
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The point I was trying to make was ...
[/ QUOTE ] I think the point that the other person was trying to make was that it's one thing to be able to one-shot me, but it's quite another thing to be able to do that and get away so easily and consistently. In other words give them one or the other but not both. In your example you talk about Druids as if to say, that's what Druids do too...but WoW isn't combining that escapability with the ability to one-shot squishies (or scrappers given rages).
WoW's mechanics are way different than CoH. Mez powers/protection are totally different and people don't have the travel powers like we do in CoH. In addition, the PvP zones aren't level limited like in CoH so someone with inviso can still be seen by higher levels who may be in the area and who can also one-shot them before they get away.
The point being is it's not really fair to compare WoW and CoH without looking at the entire picture of the how and why WoW does it the way they do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fine let me put this in simple english:
WoW: Me druid, I got your flag and you lack the ability to stop me then you kill me as fast as you can or accept you screwed up by letting me get away.
CoH/V: Me stalker, I got your butt and you lack the ability to stop me then you kill me as fast as you can or accept you screwed up by letting me get away.
Is my point clearer now? You accept what you can/can't do (as in WoW you can't hold/immob etc a druid) and change your strategy for it. Adapt your strategy for the situation.
You got a stalker you can't slow/immob then you hit him with overwhelming damage as fast as you can and hope it's enough.
[/ QUOTE ]No...your'e missing the pont. "Capturing the flag" is not a product of specific powers. There is nothing special about "capturing the flag." EVERY toon can capture the flag in WOW, even if they can't get away. EVERY toon cannot one-shot squishies in CoH.
The poster you responded is pointing that out: the combination of two special abilities. You don't recognize that. Your analogy fails for that reason.
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I was 1) referring to team enviornment (not 1v1) and 2) simply stating that if you can't do the norm (hold/immob/slow) then you've got to adjust and if nothing else use overwhelming force, period.
Now I'm sorry you feel the need to sit here and nit-pick my analogy instead of actually contributing to the thread but that's your choice.
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The point I was trying to make was ...
[/ QUOTE ] I think the point that the other person was trying to make was that it's one thing to be able to one-shot me, but it's quite another thing to be able to do that and get away so easily and consistently. In other words give them one or the other but not both. In your example you talk about Druids as if to say, that's what Druids do too...but WoW isn't combining that escapability with the ability to one-shot squishies (or scrappers given rages).
WoW's mechanics are way different than CoH. Mez powers/protection are totally different and people don't have the travel powers like we do in CoH. In addition, the PvP zones aren't level limited like in CoH so someone with inviso can still be seen by higher levels who may be in the area and who can also one-shot them before they get away.
The point being is it's not really fair to compare WoW and CoH without looking at the entire picture of the how and why WoW does it the way they do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fine let me put this in simple english:
WoW: Me druid, I got your flag and you lack the ability to stop me then you kill me as fast as you can or accept you screwed up by letting me get away.
CoH/V: Me stalker, I got your butt and you lack the ability to stop me then you kill me as fast as you can or accept you screwed up by letting me get away.
Is my point clearer now? You accept what you can/can't do (as in WoW you can't hold/immob etc a druid) and change your strategy for it. Adapt your strategy for the situation.
You got a stalker you can't slow/immob then you hit him with overwhelming damage as fast as you can and hope it's enough.
[/ QUOTE ]No...your'e missing the pont. "Capturing the flag" is not a product of specific powers. There is nothing special about "capturing the flag." EVERY toon can capture the flag in WOW, even if they can't get away. EVERY toon cannot one-shot squishies in CoH.
The poster you responded is pointing that out: the combination of two special abilities. You don't recognize that. Your analogy fails for that reason.
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I was 1) referring to team enviornment (not 1v1) and 2) simply stating that if you can't do the norm (hold/immob/slow) then you've got to adjust and if nothing else use overwhelming force, period.
Now I'm sorry you feel the need to sit here and nit-pick my analogy instead of actually contributing to the thread but that's your choice.
[/ QUOTE ] 1) I'm not sure what teaming has to do with the discussion, but for the record, he was talking about his experiences in teams, not 1v1.
2) That's fine, but you were responding to someone's issue about the combination of two things, which in their opinions, was unfair/too much/imbalanced. You are completely ignoring the point of their post while stating a trueism: If you can't stop them, then you need to do something else. That's not the problem he was addressing. He doesn't have a problem with the fact that they can escape and he can't stop them. He has a problem with the fact that they can one-shot him AND he can't stop them, and nor can anyone on the team.
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Now I'm sorry you feel the need to sit here and nit-pick my analogy instead of actually contributing to the thread but that's your choice.
[/ QUOTE ] Because you're trivializing his argument with a false analogy. You aren't contributing to the discussion, you're undermining it. Exposing that is hardly nit-picking.
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Correction here. The 1hp threshhold is only one of the ideas being considered. We've still not determined exactly how we are going to deal with 'One Shot Kills' (and the final decision will almost certainly apply to both PVE and PVP -- so no more AV insta-kills.)
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Sounds like more nerfage coming. Just wonderful. 
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
On 11/15/05, I asked:
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I think it would help a lot of the players if you explain how the devs perceive the AT is balanced in PvP and how that actually plays out in PvP...not how it plays out theoritically.
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On 3/31/06...Castle finally provided us with an answer:
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Additionally, this change was mostly aimed at the Bloody Bay and Siren's Call levels where Stalkers are so far above any other AT in Kill Count vs Death Count that it isn't even funny. In higher level PvP zones, players have plenty of options of dealing with Stalkers, which *should* force Stalkers to Team more.
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I'm glad to see devs give us feedback on what some of us knew would be true or many were claiming to be true. Thank you for the feedback.
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Really? Ok Stormy TP foe's a /SR, /DA, /Regen, Fire/ into a corner of a broken building with a lip on it...it prevents you from flying up or SJ up...you're now stuck and can't get away or attack...where is the tactic to get away or even fight back? The only option is concelment PP for PS..nothing else can help you. I would rather be one shotted then be trapped in a corner for the next 3mins unable to act.
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At 41+, there are status powers available. If you hit with one, you'll shut off his Hurricane toggles.
You can Teleport out.
You can TP Foe the Stormy on the inside of you so that he repels you out of the corner.
You can use MoG, which I believe has Repel protection.
Some sets (Spines, Claws, SS, Stone Melee) have ranged attacks. While they may not have a high DPS at range, remember that the Stormy can't heal self.
Or, lastly, you can just attack him someone. I'm not sure how it works, but my brother pushed a scrapper into the corner, and got one-shotted by the scrapper's broadsword. So there must be a way to get a shot in, maybe by trying to push forward until you sneak a hit in between Repel pulses.