Not taking the flamebait, save the trashtalk for in-game.
Skill has nothing to do with the fact that I couldn't see or target the stalkers even with 2 +perception devices running.
Honestly, the guys I was going against were really friggin good. On top of that, they weren't smack talking which was helpful.
Here's what I think was happening. They had Hide + Stealth + SS (which also gives a little stealth bonus). One of the Stalkers also told me that he uses Hover as a way to setup for AS w/o getting nailed by the caltrops. Very slick!
Also, it was late at night and there weren't a whole lot of people on. That kind of environment is stalker heaven.
Sorry Light, not trying to be insulting. Other stalkers are stacking Stealth along with Hide to be even more well hidden. That's why we (I) can see through your hide. That's all I was saying.
Also, TD was stacked with the IR Goggles I picked up.
Super Speed's Stealth does not apply in PvP -- it only affects critters Perception.
IR Goggles MAY be bugged, currently.
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Super Speed's Stealth does not apply in PvP -- it only affects critters Perception.
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Yeah, I wish people would get it though their heads that the stealth on SS is only there so you don't get yourself killed running into mobs on accident.
Really wish you would make the Stealth on SS no stack with any other kind of stealth...
It's cool, sorry for jumping on you.
I think Hide by itself is fine, but there are so many ways to trump is that its usefulness has been pretty severely compromised. As a result, many stalkers seem to feel their only option is to pick up Stealth to one-up the perception bonus of powers like Targeting Drone or Focused Senses, which means a lot of players want yet another way to boost perception, so there are temp powers.
It's all getting a little out of hand, if you ask me.
Stealth from the Concealment pool seems to work well for PvP. It allows you to move around with some degree of safety, but won't be of much help once the fighting starts. Invisibility grants you additional safety from being seen at the cost of your ability to attack. The problem with Hide is that it's all or nothing. You either see through it and completely negate the stalker's advantage or you don't and get killed very quickly.
As I understand it, stealth powers subtract from the base perception range of their targets. If you have a base perception range of 300 feet and Hide reduces that range by 300 feet, a stalker can stand right next to you without being seen. If you have a +perception power that adds 100 feet to your perception range, you can now see a Hidden stalker 100 feet away. If Stealth subtracts 100 feet...you get the idea.
I'm rambling, I know. Sorry. As a stalker, I don't want to be forced to take Stealth. Not sure I can afford the power slot anyway. I'm willing to accept that my ability to remain unseen might be less consistent than someone who's willing to stack multiple concealment powers, but I'm still a stalker and I kind of think my ability to hide should still be pretty solid. Maybe a different system of perception would work better? What about something like an accuracy check? The perception bonus of the power(s) against the stealth bonus of the power(s)...like accuracy vs. defense? Maybe diminishing returns on stacking concealment/perception powers?
Just throwing out ideas.
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Really wish you would make the Stealth on SS no stack with any other kind of stealth...
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Doesn't it already do that, as of I6? I took Stealth and plan on Superspeed on my dominator, and the stealth description claims Stealth doesn't stack with anything anymore. I hope it does, it'd be a helpful tool in PVE...
PVP, yeah, I can see it not stealthing.
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Super Speed's Stealth does not apply in PvP -- it only affects critters Perception.
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Yeah, I wish people would get it though their heads that the stealth on SS is only there so you don't get yourself killed running into mobs on accident.
Really wish you would make the Stealth on SS no stack with any other kind of stealth...
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Whatever its purpose, SS's stealth is still fairly effective in PvE. Unless you run right through the middle of a mob, it will never notice you.
As a Scrapper in CoH, I often leave SS on while solo'ing so that I can fight individual enemies without attracting the attention of the whole mob.
I think one of the problems the game is running into is that, by design, Stalkers have IMO the best PvP trifecta going: Stealth, Massive Damage, Status Protection. In exchange for all of that, they just have to be patient
Stealth alone kicks butt in PvP. Being able to get the first shot off, be it hold/damage/slow/whatever gives that player a distinct advantage. Personally, I cant imagine taking a toon into the PvP zones with out it. Except maybe a tank, and I dont like tanks.
Since it seems no one really wants to stick around for a fight they didn't start, quick damage is also key in PvP. By the time you get more than 2 or 3 shots off in a battle, your target has probably started to run away. Unless you have a way to hold them down...
Then you get the stalker's status protection powers. Granted, everyone can nullify these effects just by clicking on an insp right after they have been attacked, but Stalkers dont even get stopped for a second (important for getting away). That's why status protection is more powerful than being able to hold someone. Unless the stalker gets spotted by 2 or more players with hold powers, he's going to get away (especially with placate).
It just seems like Stalkers have the best built-in single player plan of attack for PvP. Throw in a little +perception power of your own and it's just a beast. I understand they have to really work for it (scouting, waiting, positioning, etc), but it still seems pretty darn uber compared to every other archetype (for 1 on 1 fights). Even toons with PBAoE powers, eventually they are going to run low on endurance and turn it off for a second. It's the moment the stalker waits for.
If someone can show me another build/plan of attack in this game that can defeat damn near any other toon as well as the stalker can, I will shut my mouth.
My stalker has a helluva time against tanks and scrappers. I can't even one-shot a squishie yet, and those melees are left with a ton of health and usually a couple of respites later I'm facing a really angry hero with full bars while I just blew my best shot.
I've got status protection on my stalker, and it's perma. Someone still managed to punch through it yesterday. I think it was a two-controller team with a scrapper in the front. It helps, but it's not perfect.
Right now I pretty much have to take out my targets in 2 or 3 hits. If they start healing through powers or inspirations I know I don't have the endurance or damage to take them and I bolt, because it's really all I can do.
There are lots of builds that seem pretty uber to me in PvP. I wouldn't even put stalkers at the top.
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If someone can show me another build/plan of attack in this game that can defeat damn near any other toon as well as the stalker can, I will shut my mouth.
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You can do some distressing things with /Devices blasters (which also gives you sneakiness, perception, and the side benefit of being able to stick people in place). Anyone who's been TP Foe'd onto a stack of Caltrops + Trip Mines can attest to that.
As an additional benefit, you get range.
@Mindshadow
Good point. I've read about /dev blasters setting up several trip mines and laying out caltrops before using TP Foe to pull an opponent into their trap. I'm told that death is quick and painless. And largely unavoidable. Essentially this is a ranged stalker. It requires patience to set up this trap, and at times your prey will move away, wasting all the effort...but when it works there's little anyone can do about it.
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There are lots of builds that seem pretty uber to me in PvP. I wouldn't even put stalkers at the top.
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I'm game, like what?
I've got a couple blasters that can't beat brutes either (I get lucky on occasion, but most of the time they get me), Fortunately, since they dont do a whole lot of damage, I can usually get away from them w/o much trouble. If a brute kills me 1v1 its because I started it and didn't run away when I should have.
I'm not sure wether the "/Dev blaster teleport minefield" trick works quite as well under ED, but it certainly would one-shot my controller in the Arena.
Nowadays they might have to queue up another attack afterwards to finish the job.
"Ranged stalker" is pretty much how I would describe that trick - it has about the same drawbacks and payout.
@Mindshadow
NRG/NRG blasters can hit anything, dish out a lot of damage and have several reliable stuns at their disposal. If I don't see them coming, they're death on wheels.
Super Reflex scrappers can be frightening. One-on-one mine will sometimes get owned, but in groups where I'm not the only target he's amazing. With Elude up, he's a virtually unhittable killing machine. SR scraps also make my stalker break out in a cold sweat. They can see me coming and they have a good chance to dodge the AS even if I can set one up with a Placate.
I hear Ice/NRG blasters were a popular flavor last month or the month before because of their combination of damage, holds and slows. Though I can't speak from experience it sounds like a deadly combination.
Regen scrappers are still very difficult to take down in a one-on-one fight. Basically any scrapper is a force to be reckoned with. They have solid defenses and status protection and a killer offense. They really have the best of both worlds and if played well they have complete freedom on any battlefield. No waiting for the right target at the right time, just autotarget the nearest enemy and go for it.
Illusion/FF controllers. There was one at the villain hospital in Siren's Call last night with several force fields running. He was completely unhittable. Nobody could touch him. I think he might have been hit by one or two turret shots maybe, but it was hard to tell. They didn't really do any damage. The only downside is that he couldn't attack at all, but being exemplared to 38 he didn't have his pets. If he was at his full level of 50, it sounds as though he could attack through his Phantom Army while remaining completely untouchable.
Here is the deal, I have said it a million times:
Stalkers can possibly be considered unbalanced in SC. Level 30 does not provide for several of the most powerful skills for the sets. It also does not allow for you to pick up all the power pools you will eventually have, and surly not EPP.
Any stalker that is level 30 without a 6 slot AS is not worthy of talking about. Defences at level 30 are significantly lower than what they appear to be at warburg level.
I think that the only issue that would balance stalkers for SC it check the way AS accuracy scales, compared to the way defence scales as you level up.
As a ninja blade stalker I get a 5% acc bonus on my attacks, and I'm pretty sure this includes AS. I have 2 +3 SO accuracy enhancements in AS, and 1 +3 to hit bonus SO in buildup. So needless to say my AS is designed not to miss much.
In SC I miss maybe 5% of the time on a scrapper. In War, I think I'm lucky to hit 50% of the time.
I just want to know how many of you crying about stalkers have faced a level 50 stalker with a level 50 toon? What none of you?????????? It's not even possible yet... I assure you the damage output of spells inceases faster than our HP's increase as we level.
A group I could easily escape from in SC, now destroys me before I can even TP away in war...
If devs nerf the class now, at 50 stalkers will not even be worth playing.
A stalkers life does not get easier as we level. My character personally between level 30 and 40 will gain the following:
1) A new attack, very similar to my second attack now. I will not even need to use it currently vs most my squish targets.
2) AoE defence, this will help a ton to keep me hidden, and prevent AoE effects from breaking my hide, a very nice skill but not going to help me kill a ton more people than I can now.
3) A major + defence skill that will only aid me in running away. This one will help make me harder to kill but will not benefit my ability to kill.
I get nothing that helps me counter the clearly increasing defence of characters, I get nothing to help me hit more often and harder with my AS, which lets face it a stalker without AS is a weak scrapper.
I have no idea what skill I will gain 40-50 as I don't even know what is availible. I hope that the developers do not listen to the whiney [censored] on these boards when making descisions about nerfing a class that HAS NOT EVEN HAD THE CHANCE TO HIT LEVEL 50 yet.
The only valid suggestion I would offer for a 'nerf' that will not cripple the class, is to take a look at how the accuracy of AS works based on level, and maybe decrease the accuracy early on and make it a little more likley that at level 30 it misses.
Even at that I hardly think it's fair that with 2 SO accuracy, a skill that increases my accuracy with another SO + tohit buff, a 5% bonus to accuracy, that I miss my class defining skill 50% of the time, but that's the risk I take having such a powerful attack, that requires my paper thin [censored] to get right next to my enemy and stand still for several seconds.
I don't like the fact that a blaster with trip mines, can stand on a spot AFK and kill me... but it happens. And that does not require 5 minutes of stalking to accomplish.
I'm not a fan of the fact that I HAVE to pick up a pool power to augment my class defining skill in order for that skill to be even somewhat effective in PvP.
I'm not a fan of the fact that I am the melee class with the least amount of HP.
As a stalker I have done what I can to negate whatever RISKS I have in a PvP environment. That however does not make me a god in PvP. I see PLENTY of people talking about how they own stalkers, and plenty of people crying about how stalkers own them. You know what a tank with mudpots owns me, I avoid him, I run from him.
The only thing that makes stalkers 'unbalanced' in most people's eyes is they cannot avoid conflict with them like they can with other AT's they know can beat them. I have to have 2 toggles constantly running to achieve this effect, that is not hard for a small group to negate.
All it takes is one damn person in a group that can see thru my hide + stealth to make my life a living hell trying to kill any of them. I take a single point of damage while in AS position and I lose a ton of energy and get seen by all. Hell if I break wind while lining up an AS i get inturrupted.
I'm so sick and tired of people crying so much about stalkers, when they have not even seen how they play out endgame.
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You can do some distressing things with /Devices blasters (which also gives you sneakiness, perception, and the side benefit of being able to stick people in place). Anyone who's been TP Foe'd onto a stack of Caltrops + Trip Mines can attest to that.
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Heh, how did you know? My eng/dev is by far and away my favorite toon for PvP. She is my ghetto Stalker, and I do screw with people all the time. Is she as strong of a build as a Stalker? I personally dont think so.
Her main weakness is no status protection. Any villain that is smart enough to stop trying to run out of the caltrops and put a status effect on me will at least get away if not whoop my butt.
Oh, and that perception bonus? Does nothing against well built stalkers (which are the ones I'm really worried about). They seem to hunt me down all the time.
A Brute will laugh off my damage, stun me, then beat me to a pulp. I can't find hide+stealth Stalkers, they just wait for that moment when I'm not moving to drop me.
Dominators will lock me down then either run away or take me out (unless I can stun them first). Corruptures and non-Personal Force Field Masterminds are usualy my pray, but well played responses to my opening strike can turn the tables pretty quickly.
That's what it really all comes down to. People want to at least have the chance to respond to an opening strike. It isn't fun otherwise. Yet that's exactly what the Stalker was built to do, drop people in 1 (or 2) shots.
How exactly you make those two things work together, I have no idea.
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I'm not calling for nerfs. Nor would I be calling for nerfs on Hurricane, though that's been up on the boards. There are tactics to dealing with Hurricane, and even if you have no access to them, you can still kill someone who has Hurricane on, without any special redesign.
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Really? Ok Stormy TP foe's a /SR, /DA, /Regen, Fire/ into a corner of a broken building with a lip on it...it prevents you from flying up or SJ up...you're now stuck and can't get away or attack...where is the tactic to get away or even fight back? The only option is concelment PP for PS..nothing else can help you. I would rather be one shotted then be trapped in a corner for the next 3mins unable to act.
Stalkers have said the same thing..keep moving and use unpredictable patterns if you don't want to carry enough +perception in your build to see them...I see no difference here.
Again some people don't understand Rock, Paper, Scissors...certain builds will almost always beat others cause they work against that builds weakness.
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Really? Ok Stormy TP foe's a /SR, /DA, /Regen, Fire/ into a corner of a broken building with a lip on it...it prevents you from flying up or SJ up...you're now stuck and can't get away or attack...where is the tactic to get away or even fight back? The only option is concelment PP for PS..nothing else can help you. I would rather be one shotted then be trapped in a corner for the next 3mins unable to act.
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Yeah you're right this is probably just as common as dealing with stalkers. I mean stormies do this all the time right.. heh. Honestly you're stretching it now how many times has this been done to you? Has this even happened to you or are you just speculating?
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The time involved does not matter when we're looking from the point of the victim. The end result is the same whether the Stalker takes 10 minutes to kill me, or 1. I'm just as frustrated and angry, and just as likely to give up on PvP. That's the problem, and the time spent by Stalkers doesn't really matter to that problem.
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That's what happens when you enter PvP with a weak build you get destroyed..what difference does it make if it's a stalker doing it or my Grav/Rad slowing you debuffing you and then holding you for 5min..you never got to fight back either...or when I run in with my MA/SR and unsupressed joust you with EC+BU which by the way hits for 802 with crit at level 38...now imagine if I downed a bunch of enrages like the stalkers are doing...your still dead and never had a chance.
If you have a weak solo build either team up in the PvP zones or be prepared to get defeated a few times without having a chance to fight back.
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Yeah you're right this is probably just as common as dealing with stalkers. I mean stormies do this all the time right.. heh. Honestly you're stretching it now how many times has this been done to you? Has this even happened to you or are you just speculating?
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I've had it happen to me! Ironically, on my stalker...
@Mindshadow
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Really? Ok Stormy TP foe's a /SR, /DA, /Regen, Fire/ into a corner of a broken building with a lip on it...it prevents you from flying up or SJ up...you're now stuck and can't get away or attack...where is the tactic to get away or even fight back? The only option is concelment PP for PS..nothing else can help you. I would rather be one shotted then be trapped in a corner for the next 3mins unable to act.
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Yeah you're right this is probably just as common as dealing with stalkers. I mean stormies do this all the time right.. heh. Honestly you're stretching it now how many times has this been done to you? Has this even happened to you or are you just speculating?
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Happens all the time in Warburg and SC...matter of fact FF and Mind can do the same trick. Repel can be uber against builds that have no defense for it...wow think about that something is uber if you have no defense against it.
That's it all Inv Tanks and scrappers should never have to face anyone using Psi damage.
I want fear resistance in every power since almost no one can counter it...What break frees you say? How many can you carry cause I can run you out of them in a hurry then leave you cowering there while I beat on you.
/SR is too uber cause I'm playing my DM or Claws with no BU power and I can't hit them.
Stone/ and Kheldians need a nerf cause I can't drop them out of Granite of Dwarf form...and they're too hard to kill while protected that way. They also get to heal back any damage that I was able to do on them.
Getting a bit tired of this yet?
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If someone can show me another build/plan of attack in this game that can defeat damn near any other toon as well as the stalker can, I will shut my mouth.
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Just the including the current PvP zones...
Ill/Storm, Ill/Rad, Ice/NRG, Spines/Regen, Spines/Inv, */SR with elude, Mind/Rad all those builds can take out most anyone in the current zones...but we haven't seen what happens at 50 yet and States himself has said AT's and builds are balanced to 50.
Remember we're talking 1v1 here since that's what stalkers do...they don't attack teams, they may attack someone in a team but after that they leave they don't continue to fight.
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You can do some distressing things with /Devices blasters (which also gives you sneakiness, perception, and the side benefit of being able to stick people in place). Anyone who's been TP Foe'd onto a stack of Caltrops + Trip Mines can attest to that.
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Heh, how did you know? My eng/dev is by far and away my favorite toon for PvP. She is my ghetto Stalker, and I do screw with people all the time. Is she as strong of a build as a Stalker? I personally dont think so.
Her main weakness is no status protection. Any villain that is smart enough to stop trying to run out of the caltrops and put a status effect on me will at least get away if not whoop my butt.
Oh, and that perception bonus? Does nothing against well built stalkers (which are the ones I'm really worried about). They seem to hunt me down all the time.
A Brute will laugh off my damage, stun me, then beat me to a pulp. I can't find hide+stealth Stalkers, they just wait for that moment when I'm not moving to drop me.
Dominators will lock me down then either run away or take me out (unless I can stun them first). Corruptures and non-Personal Force Field Masterminds are usualy my pray, but well played responses to my opening strike can turn the tables pretty quickly.
That's what it really all comes down to. People want to at least have the chance to respond to an opening strike. It isn't fun otherwise. Yet that's exactly what the Stalker was built to do, drop people in 1 (or 2) shots.
How exactly you make those two things work together, I have no idea.
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I have an En/Dev Blaster as well. Just surround yourself with trip mines and caltrops when you have to stay stationary and Stalkers will almost always leave you alone. It's not generally worth the effort for them when you have that sort of defense set up (and I say this both from the perspective of playing the En/Dev as well as from the perspective of playing a Stalker).
It's is very easy to mute Stalkers' core abilities. Running Tactics + IR Goggles in Siren's Call still lets me see Stalkers, and if I move around a lot, I rarely get confronted, let alone actually attacked. Additionally, Stalkers are extremely vulnerable once exposed, especially if you can get them ensnared in slows or stack holds (both of which are very realistically realisable).
As time goes on, people will hopefully start to figure out that Stalkers are not this unsurmountable enemy that they are being made out to be on this board. AoE auras and other effects can both interrupt AS and, for some of them, break hide. We're also visible even with hide+stealth if you have two +perception powers; though, not at long range, which I think is a good change from previously when my Controller with IR Goggles + Tactics could see Stalkers hundreds of feet out.
I'm sorry you're so worked up about Stalkers, but they aren't nearly the high volume killers that many other builds in PvP (Ice/En, Ice/Elec, Ice/Ice, Ill/Storm, Ill/Rad, Fire/Storm, Fire/Rad, Spines/DA, BS/DA, Kat/DA, Spines/Regen, and many more...) are. The counters available to you as an En/Dev are using Caltrops and Trip Mines, carrying IR Goggles to help you see them along with insights and using Aim, and keeping mobile. You could try spec'ing into Whirlwind if you want to unroot yourself while attacking, for instance.
Stalkers require different tactics to counter them than people may be used to. However, there are a _lot_ of things that one can do to fend them off. Some builds have these options available to them more easily than others, but at least one option is generally available to everyone.
That said, I've interrupted Stalker AS attempts with attacks before. It's a matter of practice and getting over conditioned responses to the methods of other ATs. Perhaps you should build a Stalker as it may help you develop at least some of the skills that will help you protect against them.
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I get that it doesn't matter to the victim of an AS how much work went into that kill, and I'm willing to concede that everyone should feel they had a shot in most situations, but you have to consider BOTH perspectives in making any sort of change to stalkers. Reduce their frontloaded damage, and you'll have to give them something else to compensate.
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Exactly. I'm not for just nerfing the front-strike capability of Stalkers and leaving them hung out to dry. Other than the AS, which IMO is too powerful, Stalkers are pretty weak. So if we take the AS out as a "I win" button, then they need something else. More damage, more HPs, a better way to hide, whatever.
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I wouldn't say the majority of players have +perception, but probably at least a third of the ones I encounter have no problem seeing through Hide
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Then you aren't setup very well as a Stalker.
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How could I not be set up very well as a stalker? Is MY Hide power somehow less effective than any other stalker's? Is there something wrong with my playstyle that allows others to see through my Hide?
Don't just throw out "you must just suck at your AT" insults. You don't know what those other stalker's you dealt with were running. They may have been using a temp stealth power or maybe they chose to stack Stealth on top of Hide, or maybe they got a dose of Grant Invisibility from a friend. All valid tactics, but I prefer to discuss balance based on what my character can do on his own, and Hide is not the end-all-be-all.
And for every ability in the game there IS a player with a counter, but that player isn't always you. No one character can counter every ability in the game, but as a devices blaster I can tell you that Targeting Drone alone is enough to see through Hide unless it's stacked with something else.