I'd be surprised if it's more than 20-25% Damage Debuff, and I expect the slow Debuff to be dropped by at least 10%, if not more.
Statesman's post implies to me that they're going to give us the Damage Debuff *at the cost* of Recharge/Slow debuff.
Gee, what fun. Cookie cutter Ice Tanks, here we come.
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I'd be surprised if it's more than 20-25% Damage Debuff, and I expect the slow Debuff to be dropped by at least 10%, if not more.
Statesman's post implies to me that they're going to give us the Damage Debuff *at the cost* of Recharge/Slow debuff.
Gee, what fun. Cookie cutter Ice Tanks, here we come.
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He said slower. To me slower on a slow means more, not less.
Edit:
Oh, and regarding the cookie cutter comment, its very true.
I'm running some side tests calculations, trying to plan out a strategy, and so far, you get far better value now out of slotting Tough for 6 RES than you do slotting slotting EA with any DEF at all. So I very much think that will be in my plan.
I mean basically the spreadsheet I did is nice, but all it shows is that you need to Herd to still be less than an Invuln Tank or Scrapper in many respects. Realsitically solo/duo EA is crap for DEF, and it demonstrates moreso that slotting it for DEF is simply not worth the effort.
My EA plan is (after dropping Hasten and Stamina both) to slot it for 3 to 6 Recharge enhancers, so I can use it in often for End recovery. I plan on not relying on it for defense. (note: I will still be taking Health, just 6-slotting it now).
So no, I think the 2 steps made are nice gestures, but they're not really doing it for me yet.
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Oh - one other change coming soon to the Training Room...
This was an idea taken right from this forum. Since Ice Armor has no Resistance, it's a zero sum sort of power set. In other words, you're hit or your not. Well, someone (I've forgotten who) suggested adding a Damage Debuff to one of the powers - and we did! Chilling Embrace gains the ability to debuff mob damage ( though it's Recharge debuff is slightly slower now).
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The tone of that bit implies to me that hes saying "you're getting X, but Y is going to be reduced to compensate."
I hope you're right though.
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The numbers look better for an Ice Tanker above level 34. It still doesn't do much for an Ice tanker starting at the lower levels. For one no DO's or SO's should be in the calcualtions for them until they can get them...
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I think one of the things not being looked at is where each of these solutions fall in while leveling up your Ice Tanker...Ice Tankers still need a little more help on their early game for surviving.
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This is exactly my concern, too. For example, before you can get DOs, the best you can have is ~22% defense (6-slotted with +3 TOs) to Smash/Lethal only. With DOs it is ~27%. The 1% or so you can get from Wet Ice is virtually pointless to mention. Against everything but Smash/Lethal, your defense will be effectively zero before 18th level.
Further, a +1 boss (something which you will encounter quite frequently unless you do all of your missions solo on Heroic) has about a 71% chance to hit you. That means bosses will hit you about 50% of the time when using Smashing/Lethal and about 70% of the time when using anything else. If Chilling Embrace gives a -25% damage debuff, they are within melee range, and they are attacking with Smash/Lethal, that is equivalent to bosses hitting you every single swing for about 40% damage. If they aren't in melee range then it's like them hitting every time and doing over 50% damage. If it's an attack other than Smashing/Lethal then it is even higher...significantly higher. What's worse is even minions would hit you better than 25-50% of the time, for 80%-110% damage. And remember...all that is assuming your armor is 6-slotted with +3 defense enhancements. Of course the attack rate will also be reduced a bit due to the -recharge in Chilling Embrace, but it still looks pretty dismal without resorting to picking and slotting multiple power pool defense powers--assuming you can handle the endurance hit, which isn't likely before Stamina or EA.
Seems to me that before SOs (possibly even all the way to the 30s when you have slotted EA), an Ice Tanker will be little more than a liability on any team without one or more of the right kind of defender.
Overall, I haven't minded the I5 changes much...but I think Ice is still getting the short end of the stick so far.
My solution? Add some permanent, automatic Defense to Permafrost. That would make it a power worth taking, and if it were high enough then that might finally even things out a bit starting at 8th level.
Statesman should run an ice tank on test and see for himself how crappy they are. If this nerfed goes live then my ice tank will just become a crappy scrapper. EA will just be used to buff my endurance. Really sad 
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DMG/Hit * (1 - Damage Debuf) (same as your formula)
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That method of calculation sounds fine to me... You're right that I can simulate my "50% Damage Debuff" by putting in 33% in your sheet. That's kinda why I chose 33% as the next example. However it's figured is fine, I'll test it tonight and return with the results.
Yeah it stinks that Invuln Scrappers would be out-doing us for some damage types, S/L the most obvious major advantage. But I'd accept our niche as a debuff king, helping others who get hit by AoE's from mobs we are engaging.
And again, I'll say I hope they BOOST our defense from it's current Training Room amount. It doesn't need to be much, but we do need to have more defense then other sets. And if it's from my base toggles or EA, it still needs to be noticable.
I'll also add something else that I don't like that the spreadsheet demonstrates.
Overall Invuln of either type gets more benefit from increases in enhancement level. For example, plug 1.00 as the mod into the spreadsheet for enhancements. Look at the percentages. Then plug in 1.15, notice how the % damage that Invuln takes vs Ice goes down, rather than staying even.
That's a very bad sign overall.
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I'm running some side tests calculations, trying to plan out a strategy, and so far, you get far better value now out of slotting Tough for 6 RES than you do slotting slotting EA with any DEF at all. So I very much think that will be in my plan.
I mean basically the spreadsheet I did is nice, but all it shows is that you need to Herd to still be less than an Invuln Tank or Scrapper in many respects. Realsitically solo/duo EA is crap for DEF, and it demonstrates moreso that slotting it for DEF is simply not worth the effort.
My EA plan is (after dropping Hasten and Stamina both) to slot it for 3 to 6 Recharge enhancers, so I can use it in often for End recovery. I plan on not relying on it for defense. (note: I will still be taking Health, just 6-slotting it now).
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Yeah, I'm looking at EA with 3 Recharge, and 1 Taunt. Swap out the few slots of endo reduction I have in my toggles, and go full defense/resistance for FA, GA, Tough and Weave. I'll use EA as my endo recovery/taunting (since it hits 14 targets instead of 5 for taunt).
It stinks that now I need Weave in addition to Tough. Tough was always a life-saver for Ice Tanks. But to need Weave?!? I guess this is how they're going to keep us from maxing our defense ablities. I'll drop my Epic pool power (Ice Hold), and put in Weave instead...
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It stinks that now I need Weave in addition to Tough. Tough was always a life-saver for Ice Tanks. But to need Weave?!? I guess this is how they're going to keep us from maxing our defense ablities. I'll drop my Epic pool power (Ice Hold), and put in Weave instead...
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Yup another problem not solved for Ice Tanks, and in fact exacerbated by I5.
Edit: I do want to know why the devs concept of Tanker balance still involves Ice and Fire Tanks diving into the Fighting Pool and Invuln and Stone Tanks (and heck Invuln Scrappers) not.
Weave doesn't stack with any Ice Tanker +DEF abilities. It would only protect vs. Toxic and Psionic damage.
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I'm not so sure I like trading Chilling Embrace's -recharge for some -damage. It sounds like a bit of a wash.
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It is in fact a wash from a "Damage mitigation per second" standpoint, provided the magnitude of the powers are identical. Either they're swinging at you X% less or you're taking X% less damage per hit.
However, it's ideal for a +DEF powerset because -DAM (Foe) is a lot like +RES (Self). Since Ice tankers have no Resistance defenses (i.e.: we take 100% of the damage that hits us), this means we can suddenly take more melee hits. That's one of the things we desperately needed to be able to do.
Also, the cool thing (pun intended) is that if you're debuffing a foe's damage capacity, it helps your whole team rather than just you. That's great from a Tanker role standpoint.
So, I for one welcome this lefthanded RES and think it's a wise shift.
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Weave doesn't stack with any Ice Tanker +DEF abilities. It would only protect vs. Toxic and Psionic damage.
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Huh?? I'm rather sure it does... 
You have to give them this much, by crippling EA and WI, they've actually made Permafrost somewhat desireable so that Ice Tankers don't get *completely* murdered by Fire.
Yup, so fair.
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Weave doesn't stack with any Ice Tanker +DEF abilities. It would only protect vs. Toxic and Psionic damage.
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Weave provides some form of defense (including psychic) so it will stack. As far as I know, there is no toxic defense in the game so it wouldn't help with that.
EDIT: I forgot about AOE.
The Dark Blade
"I've felt your mouse on me before, you perv...." - Troy Hickman
Paragon Wiki
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Weave doesn't stack with any Ice Tanker +DEF abilities. It would only protect vs. Toxic and Psionic damage.
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This is incorrect. Weave will stack with ice against all attacks expect AoE attacks. Weave, like all teh pool power +def powers functions like SR. This additionally means that weave provides defense against both psi and toxic as long as the attack is not an AoE, such as psi tornado.
- Post I responded to changed -
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Chilling Embrace gains the ability to debuff mob damage (though it's Recharge debuff is slightly slower now).
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So I take it that now Ice Tanks should move there WI slots to CE, slot WI with end, EA with recharges and CE with def debuffs. So now we have some SL in FA, Eng/Neg in GA and a def debuff in CE. Am I missing something here but isn't our def still gone? Without any gain from EA or WI?
Perma Frost is still a power that is questionable to take because frankly the two types of dmg that are most rarely used are toxic and cold. The game is really SL and Fire from 1 to 50. That is the majority of the dm types coming against us (at least in my experience).
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Defense debuffs? What are you talkign about. It said DAMAGE Debuff...not defense...
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Edit: I do want to know why the devs concept of Tanker balance still involves Ice and Fire Tanks diving into the Fighting Pool and Invuln and Stone Tanks (and heck Invuln Scrappers) not.
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I can't answer for Invuln tanks, but us Stoners have our own problems when it comes to pool powers, particularly when it comes to working with Granite Armor.
Usually, it's Teleport and Speed pools for us.
Teleport: Trade power slots for being able to move around easily while Rooted/Granite is up? Or take the easy travel route (no teleport) and severely hurt our ability to go where we are needed in battle?
Speed: Take Hasten for Granite, so we can attack/taunt at normalish speeds, but burn slots we could use elsewhere in our secondary? Or don't take hasten, and take a lot or *all* of our secondary and slot up Taunt so we can have a chance of laying out the punchvoke? Not to mention what Hasten/no Hasten does to our damage output.
It's a different balance with Stoners... our survivability isn't usually a problem. Instead, it's our ability to maneuver and control aggro outside the radius of our aura-voke area.
I'm with ya on these Ice Tank changes, tho, Circ. Some of this boggles the mind. In particularly, Icers are way excellent at attracting and holding aggro, and yet these changes are making it much more difficult to survive that aggro.
Arc ID#1160 : "In the Shadow of Statesman" -Finished
Part Two--Under Construction
Wow! It's cool to the see the suggestion I've been trumpeting for a couple weeks endorsed by Statesman. (swapping CE -recharge for -dmg). Glad to know they scour the boards. (And yes, Umbra was technically the first to actually post on the matter.)
Of course, like everyone else I'm still very concerned about the mitigation imbalance that seems to exist in I5 between Ice and the other sets against higher level foes. On test the best defense I have seems to be the knockdown of my axe. I feel a lot like my DM/DA scrapper, where the important thing is to kill ASAP rather than absorb a lot of attacks.
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It is in fact a wash from a "Damage mitigation per second" standpoint, provided the magnitude of the powers are identical. Either they're swinging at you X% less or you're taking X% less damage per hit.
However, it's ideal for a +DEF powerset because -DAM (Foe) is a lot like +RES (Self). Since Ice tankers have no Resistance defenses (i.e.: we take 100% of the damage that hits us), this means we can suddenly take more melee hits. That's one of the things we desperately needed to be able to do.
Also, the cool thing (pun intended) is that if you're debuffing a foe's damage capacity, it helps your whole team rather than just you. That's great from a Tanker role standpoint.
So, I for one welcome this lefthanded RES and think it's a wise shift.
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Personally, I'd prefer this effect were loaded into another like icicles. You know, getting chopped up while trying to reach the creamy filling makes it harder for you to actually hit, and the icicles deflect some of the force of incoming attacks blahblah.
Leave chilling embrace as the excellent tool it already is, and since icicles ALREADY costs a ridiculous amount of endurance to operate, a -dam (and perhaps -acc) effect could be completely justified without reducing from the power as it is already.
(edited because I broke the HTML somehow)
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Personally, I'd prefer this effect were loaded into another like icicles.
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Please no... I beg you. Icicles has problems, so some choose to avoid the power. Now you are telling them they have to take it. And it has a hit/miss component, so if it's accuracy is not hitting targets around you, you're taking full damage. Would I have to slot it for Accuracy and Endo Reduction?
Fix Icicles on it's own.
Chilling Aura suits the Damage Debuff perfectly, as a reliable PBAoE effect. Chilling Aura also needs minimal slotting for usefulness, so I can conserve slots for other powers. It's early in the set, so you'll have it for the life of your tank. And it's the only protection you'll have till level 18 for Energy/Negative and the dreaded ZOMBIE VOMIT of the Vahz.
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A few other things you forgot to take into account: If you do not have alot of mobs around you when you trigger EA you are woefully unprepared when more Mobs arrive.
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What if they made EA have a higher initial buff to Def for a single mob and then ramp up if your fighting more mobs (up to the 14 limit).
That is 1 mob = higher initial buff, 2 mobs = higher initial buff + regular Def increase, etc. for 3-14.
I think someone suggested either the same thing or something similar.
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You have to give them this much, by crippling EA and WI, they've actually made Permafrost somewhat desireable so that Ice Tankers don't get *completely* murdered by Fire.
Yup, so fair.
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Phear my amazing predictive powers.
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A few other things you forgot to take into account: If you do not have alot of mobs around you when you trigger EA you are woefully unprepared when more Mobs arrive.
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What if they made EA have a higher initial buff to Def for a single mob and then ramp up if your fighting more mobs (up to the 14 limit).
That is 1 mob = higher initial buff, 2 mobs = higher initial buff + regular Def increase, etc. for 3-14.
I think someone suggested either the same thing or something similar.
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Why not just have EA buff 1 time unenhanceable for 12.5% to everything (yes even Psi). That is if it hits anything you get the full buff, and still have the End Drain and Recovery work vs 14 mobs. I mean right now Weave with no extra slots + Combat Jumping with no extra slots makes up the difference for not slotting EA for more DEF and its better sustainable DEF. Which is large problem for us, and is always in need for DEF only classes.
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So how good is energy absorption really did it orginally provide crazy defense boosts? Not really interested in numbers because they don't really reflect the game I am more interested in here ancedotal evidence and opinions.
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Check the link in my signature for those answers. Anything you could want to know about the live version of EA is in there.