Hmm. Havok hasn't posted in two weeks - looks like I5 has already driven off one of the better members of the CoH community. 
I just spoke with him earlier this week at DDO, and he is indeed done with CoH, having found Statesman's comment to a tanker unable to solo some Rikti as snide.
I miss him, he made this place shine! Still, I know where to find him! 
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I just spoke with him earlier this week at DDO, and he is indeed done with CoH, having found Statesman's comment to a tanker unable to solo some Rikti as snide.
I miss him, he made this place shine! Still, I know where to find him!
[/ QUOTE ]
I too have registered with DDO and talked briefly with Havok there. Miss the big guy.
I have been running a series of tests on Inv/SS and I can tell you there is a way to make it tough but its silly. You need to herd to make it work and that totally annoys me. Anyway when I5 comes about I will post a guide here for all us hard core superman fans. It will not be the equal of our man Havok but I'll do my best to make what has happened and how we can work clear.
Herd 12 to break "even", 14 to max. And yet Jack doesn't want us to herd, because using ALL of our taunt and punchvokes is "fun" to him so 5 per effect.
Let's just say I am working on an ice/ice/cold blaster, that's how disillusioned I am with the gutting of Invuln. When soloing, when do you have 12 foes all in melee range in a mission? And as you take any of them out, your DEF drops. Meaning good luck as you get down in foes.
"Don't herd," says Jack, as he takes away our Resists and Taunt ability, only to turn around and say "Keep 12 on you and you are okay" with a nudge and wink. 
Just rename Invulnerable to reflect whatever changes Jack wants to make. Don't call it Invulnerable unless it matches the dictionary's definition of the word. In the meantime, I will play my squishie blaster with her holds and hope she can at least make 50 before I6 nerfs her. I will never see a Kheldian on my account at this rate.
Two quick questions then...
One, I've been experimenting a little on Test in my copoius spare time (read, nil) and really I'm not seeing much that I can work with. Has anyone found any alternatives that might help mitigate some of the drops in resistance? Any of the Power Pools might have something to help that I'm not seeing? I'm just looking for things I might be able to do to help keep some version of this build workable.
Two, what in the heck is DDO? Please forgive my ignorance.
[ QUOTE ]
Two quick questions then...
One, I've been experimenting a little on Test in my copoius spare time (read, nil) and really I'm not seeing much that I can work with. Has anyone found any alternatives that might help mitigate some of the drops in resistance? Any of the Power Pools might have something to help that I'm not seeing? I'm just looking for things I might be able to do to help keep some version of this build workable.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's two philosophies floating about that I can see. Method one is to focus on maxing out Smashing/Lethal damage using Temporary Invulnerability, and Unyielding. Toss in Invinc for the accuracy and defense bonus, but ignore the passive powers and put everything else into offense. The idea is, protect yourself against the most common damage type (S/L) and then build for maximum damage output. I suspect this is the direction Havok might have gone.
The other philosophy I've seen for I5, is to look into pool powers to amp up defense instead. Myself, I'm going to look at a build using the leadship pool to help bolster my weakened defenses/resistances. The down side is, I'll be sacrificing attacks to make it work. This second method might make a more attractive team tanker, but will severly limit soloability.
[ QUOTE ]
Two, what in the heck is DDO? Please forgive my ignorance.
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Dungeons & Dragons Online, a new mmo in beta phases. It's new, it's different (that is, not made by an existing MMO company like NCSoft or Sony OE), but for my money, once the newness wears off, folks over there will be in the same boat as here.
Sometimes I wonder, if I didn't look at the numbers, and didn't know the actual changes coming, would I notice the difference that much? But then I hear about powers with numbers like ".5%"...yes, half a percent, and I think, where is this going? I'd love to see bigger and better, not smaller and homogenized.
I'm sorry, you didn't ask for a rant. I'm just at a loss. My Inv/SS tanker is lvl 36, and if the current changes go live I just don't know what I'll do. My whole team is feeling the hurt, and is working at pulling together to buff the team. When my tanker losses effectiveness, what do I do? Boost my damage output, and I'm just a stunted Scrapper with little to contribute to survival. Boost my survival, and add some team buffing powers, and I'm as threatening as a turnip. I stand there, take damage, and buff people. Gaaah.
We all came into this game, knowing what was expected of the ATs....it was spelled out for us. We want to be front line? We could pick Blasters and Tankers. We want to be solo artists? Scrappers were there. We want affect entire mobs of baddies? Controllers stepped up. We want to work on our teammates? Defenders were there.
Now where are we? What are we doing? We have Defenders with more Controller-like powers. Controllers relearning what they're supposed to do. Blasters expected to die for their powers. And Tankers and Scrappers who can't tell each other apart.
I'm lost, folks, I'm really lost. My apologies, Tetsuhara, for derailing so badly.
Hero14
SS/INV Tanker on Virtue
Superman Returns (INV/SS Guide for I8)
Hero14 is right, in spite of what Statesman says, I really see no role for us. When I5 was first brought to Test, I copied Kara to there at level 27, and faceplanted in my first group of the pumpkinheads. I lasted less than 10 seconds. Hopped off tram, saw them, engaged, and watched health plummet.
Now my choices are to be a scrapper lacking damage but with a taunt component (which I can no longer call a good thing since my ability to survive is gimped) and slightly better defenses, or a herding taunt-bot who can pretty much give up on soloing and instead focus on pool powers and maxing limited primary powers.
Statesman says no herding, then says he hit Taunting to make it more fun (for him) by having to constantly micromanage the foes with different attacks, and then tells us to herd as having 12 foes in melee range will make us as tough as we used to be (Def only). Short of herding, when do we have 12 whole bad guys on us? Carrying our own posse of 12 minions with us to the AV just to survive is BS! And as we take out our 12 (that we somehow hold onto with reduced Taunt effectiveness), the number of hits we take climbs as we thin the herd.
BAD.
I love Kara, she is my solo goddess, my Supergirl! With I5, I don't want to gut her concept, but I also can't play her concept. I am shelving her until most of the changes are rolled back. Looking at how much better Fire tankers are with fewer slots and powers, and how much tougher Kheldians are with only 4 SOs in one power, I stand dismayed. Our only consolation for having to take more powers and spend 35 slots in them for less RES is that we can taunt better than a Kheldian. Sure we still can taunt, but our soloing in the last half of the game is gone. Sure we can still help parties, but with FF types giving DEF with bubbles, and Sonics giving RES with their screams, any squishie can survive on the frontlines without us. No role exists, just hire FF and Sonics to the team and carry on without tankers.
I am working on an ice/ice/cold blaster now. Did I mention in my first posts to this thread that I hate playing blasters because they are squishie? Well, so is Kara. S/L isn't such a big deal when you face CoT/CoS/BP/Electrics/Fire/Dark/Energy types that I am seeing more and more of. With the numbers on the passives being reduced so low, if I continue to play Kara, the slots in Resist En/El will be moved into Invincibility and Laser Beam Eyes and Unstoppable. She will be a slow scrapper. If I wanted to play a Scrapper, I would have made one.
[ QUOTE ]
Hero14 is right, in spite of what Statesman says, I really see no role for us. When I5 was first brought to Test, I copied Kara to there at level 27, and faceplanted in my first group of the pumpkinheads. I lasted less than 10 seconds. Hopped off tram, saw them, engaged, and watched health plummet.
Now my choices are to be a scrapper lacking damage but with a taunt component (which I can no longer call a good thing since my ability to survive is gimped) and slightly better defenses, or a herding taunt-bot who can pretty much give up on soloing and instead focus on pool powers and maxing limited primary powers.
Statesman says no herding, then says he hit Taunting to make it more fun (for him) by having to constantly micromanage the foes with different attacks, and then tells us to herd as having 12 foes in melee range will make us as tough as we used to be (Def only). Short of herding, when do we have 12 whole bad guys on us? Carrying our own posse of 12 minions with us to the AV just to survive is BS! And as we take out our 12 (that we somehow hold onto with reduced Taunt effectiveness), the number of hits we take climbs as we thin the herd.
BAD.
I love Kara, she is my solo goddess, my Supergirl! With I5, I don't want to gut her concept, but I also can't play her concept. I am shelving her until most of the changes are rolled back. Looking at how much better Fire tankers are with fewer slots and powers, and how much tougher Kheldians are with only 4 SOs in one power, I stand dismayed. Our only consolation for having to take more powers and spend 35 slots in them for less RES is that we can taunt better than a Kheldian. Sure we still can taunt, but our soloing in the last half of the game is gone. Sure we can still help parties, but with FF types giving DEF with bubbles, and Sonics giving RES with their screams, any squishie can survive on the frontlines without us. No role exists, just hire FF and Sonics to the team and carry on without tankers.
I am working on an ice/ice/cold blaster now. Did I mention in my first posts to this thread that I hate playing blasters because they are squishie? Well, so is Kara. S/L isn't such a big deal when you face CoT/CoS/BP/Electrics/Fire/Dark/Energy types that I am seeing more and more of. With the numbers on the passives being reduced so low, if I continue to play Kara, the slots in Resist En/El will be moved into Invincibility and Laser Beam Eyes and Unstoppable. She will be a slow scrapper. If I wanted to play a Scrapper, I would have made one.
[/ QUOTE ]
i posted this in a coupel thread already my typo filled email to statys on the nerf and aciving "his vision"
not the size of my posts vs his replies
on the nature of balance
Sent to: Statesman
You have stated that "fighting statues is no fun" and that you want to "ballance the leveling across the board" and ive stated my counter argument several times. Its about time i told you directly.
1: any build tht is optimal will be barly effected by your nerfs, that is by definition what optimal is. However not everyon is optimal, in fact just last week i teamed witha Blaster who at lvl 17 was still using trainings but was so skilled i swore he was using Duels, had he been a invuln tank in I5 or a contler hes be plasted because to optimize these ATs you need SOs and a specific build.
The simple fact is those less then optimal are kicked in the cajones while those who are optimal are using a athleetes cup, its hurts but doesnt cripple them.
So how do you decrease this devide instead of magnify it?
you lower not eveerthing but the optimal, to take tanks down to a max of say 80% instead of 90% resist or you raise the other arch types resists higher. You increase the defenive buff not decrease them of a power pool
see by decreasing the pool you make Blasters and defenders more squisky, they need that piddly 20-30% def boost to increase their survivability.
Are you woried about Resist tank taking Def powers to up their over all defense?
then treat it like Leadership
Blasters, defenders, and controlers get more of a boost from pool defense then tankers and scrappers
"but what about soloing a 8 man invincible"
buddy let me tel you something, last night on live my team was having troble doing a 8 man tenacious, wed be toast in I5
again optimal vs non optimal
Optimals maximize what is there, they are optimal, so for them lower the bar, dont lower the bar in general.
if you can scale Leadership to a archetype then you can surly scale other powers
now on to being held
as it stand in I5 a non optimal controler will get one use of the Mass controsl once per 3 battles...think about that...Ive tested it i know, you made hasten a requirment
also we dont like to be made into statues, so i all fairness shoudlt we be more resistent to holds? i dont enjoy sittingtheir for 5 minutes held
The answer to fightingand being statues is simple, simpl y increase the mag resistice of a mob and player
and for the love of god give us back the original recharge rate the AOE target numbers and half duration are punishment enough but if it takes 3 fights to charge a power....
I've been here since beta, i here to help you
i am also aprogramer i knwo the work it takes to make changes
but pissing off the player base is not a good choice.
Re: on the nature of balance
From: Statesman
First - you state general observations. Interesting - but what's your experience like on the Training Room server? I've played Controllers - solo and team - and done just fine on missions (Heroic to Invincible).
Second - scaling mob resistances would simply leave the Controllers impotent. It would take multiple uses of powers to net any effect. I think you'd agree that this is sub-optimal.
Re: on the nature of balance
Sent to: Statesman
My optimal build FF denfeders (30 defmese sltos of SO, 6 to hit so in tactics) is barly effected.
My lvl 19 Tanker running on DOS is going down vys a single mob spawn of 7 white to yellow lost
my mind controler can pull of at best /1/ hold per 3 battles and 1 mass sleep
on live my tanker can hold her own against those 7 lost, shes not perfect heck just last nigh i hereded a room full of green to white clockworks and my health slowly droped.
my controler on life can pull over 1 mass hold per battle and 3 mass sleeps.
a optimal build of either may not be challanged by the live system but i sure am.
Ive teamed with a BLASTER who at lv 17 was running with TRAININGS, yes TRAININGS and i was sure he was using DOs, but when our TF conversation turned to musing on "POs, those prometheus orgins enhacments really kick Hammi o butt" he went "Hammie o?" and later after explaining Hammires, and SO and DOs i took hinm to Subgeneics (he wasa fellow mutant). He looked over the list "thies nothing special here" told him to scroll down and this guy who was running tranings and kickign butt discovered his first DO
These are the people who become optimals, they can squeses just about everything out of their powers. but MOST players arent like that.
out of 28 alts only pinky my bubbler is optimal.
That why hacking of defense (for example) at the knees does work. Their a threadi made in the trainign room called Guide: how to aim the nerf axe" which basicly give a nice graphic example of my point
if you set the Bat at the base and swing your Optimals are 7 feet tall, your sub optimals 5 feet tall, the Bat is swung at 2 feet
what happends if you hit a 7 foot man wit ha bat at 2 feet and a 5 foot man with a bat at 2 feet?
But
if you aim the BAT high say 6.5 feet, you take the head of the optimals and th sub optimals arent hurt in the process as their a foot and a half short.
I dont know your true stand on power leveling but PL are Optimals and with all the I5 nerfs they have /already/ found a way to cary on same as before with only a few minor changes.
But those of use who are not perfect, well we left wit heverying below the wasit smashed by the Nerf Bat while the optimals just have a bruised knee.
i posted in the mentioned thread some of my "Hack high" thoughts thats just my opionion though
in gneral how i whoud have acomplied your goals is different
you want to make Tankers less god like right?
if you lower the bases sub optimals suffer but if you keep the MAX CAP at 90% but lower the MAX cap ACHIVABLE by a tankers powers thn you get the same EXACT result but it protects those who havent optimazed their enhacments.
how do you do this?
2 way ocoem to mind, reduce the CUMULATIVE effect of sos (maybe 33%, for the first 27% for the second of same type, etc)
or
set in a second cap powers on theoir own MAX out at X, a defender can buff you past that to Y which is your AT cap.
then look at Tough and WEAVE is it REALLY game breaking for a BLASTER or defender to have a 30% def? sure i see your point it over power a tank, so do what you did with manuvers
blaster, controler,s and denfeders get more of a bunus then say tankers and scrappers for toug hand weave just like Leadership is best boosted on a Defender.
For controler holds you coud up the enemi Mag resistance or up their abilty to shrung off a mez, by seting a AOE limt, halfing duration adn doubling rechange you make it tougher to control a right, by killing a suboptimals ability to control at all and wounding a optimal...
but if the emeines shrunged off the effects easier the nyou get the same effect BUT it means if you got several controlers they Can chain hold a mob, they just need to stack Holds, just liek they gotta do with Hammy.
i think that covers everthing....
i miss any points?
Re: on the nature of balance
From: Statesman
Thanks for the feedback. Interesting.
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
Well my build which I fully admit is light on attacks, is aimed at maximizing defense. To that end I have Tough Hide 6 slotted and Invincibility 6 slotted. I also capped my S/L, or am real close to the cap. I have Resist Elements and Resist Energies but I will not slot them. With this build I can run about in Founder's Falls and clean house on +3s and +4s pretty safely, even ones that don't do only S/L. Though it is more dangerous to face non-S/L foes I just pop a luck and herd'm up. Once herded your pretty safe. Against S/L foes I can safely herd +7s. I can kill them over the course of 10 minutes for a minion, 30 for an LT, and over an hour for a boss (I had him to about a quater life after an hour and just got bored). As long as you have say 5 or 6 with you in melee your safe even against +7s that do mostly S/L. Against CoTs that do fire and other non-S/L I did herd a group of 8 +7s and +8s but died after 2 minutes. I did not use inspirations or unstoppable but I was doing a ton of running about to keep them close. Thorns seem to have a smarter AI in that they actually want to keep away from you and not act as a shield.
To me this is really borked. Completely not what was wanted. I hope they listen but I have my doubts.
No, it's ok. Derailing is just fine. I think it's a clear sign of the mindset many of us Tankers are in right now as we watch the upcoming changes and come to realize that we're just not being listened to. In several threads I've seen staff and developers say how pleased they are by all the POSITIVE comments about the new changes and I just cringe.
What I'm trying to focus on now is possible ways to salvage the idea of this thread, if that's even possible at this point. The massive damage done across the board to almost all the Inv powers makes most of them useless. So, looking at Pool Powers, how would a mixture of Fighting and Leaping help? A little more resistance and some Defense from what I see, does it help at all?
Also, should we try and raise a little fuss about the lack of a Inv or SS complimentary Epic Power pool? Just a thought, since there's Stone, Fire, and Ice.
Thanks again all, and I'm holding onto hope till the last bell rings.
I hope they roll back their changes quickly after implimenting, or that subscription numbers dip so sharply that Statesman apologizes and raises the game's power levels to make us feel like Superheroes.
I paid to play Supergirl. While I have over 30 alts, she is who I come back to. In light of the games Devs are playing, and the fact I want a Kheldian (Kara is my highest at 28), I am rolling a D3 scrapper and an Ice3 blaster. One of them should survive I6's nerfs and hopefully make 50 if Kara isn't restored to playable.
Well after just hitting level 38 with GRUDG... im just hoping i don't have to give up on this AT, he's my favorite and i really would dislike to reroll a different AT just to survive i5. I suppose i shall continue to be optimistic but who knows .
Here's GRUDG:
Exported from version 1.5A of CoH Planner
http://joechott.com/coh
Archetype: Tanker
Primary Powers - Ranged : Invulnerability
Secondary Powers - Support : Super Strength
01 : Jab dam(01)
01 : Temp Invulnerability damres(01)
02 : Punch dam(02) dam(3) dam(3) dam(5) dam(7) dam(37)
04 : Dull Pain recred(04) recred(5) recred(19) recred(21)
06 : Hasten recred(06) recred(7) recred(15) recred(15) recred(17) recred(19)
08 : Unyielding damres(08) damres(9) damres(9) damres(11) damres(11) damres(13)
10 : Taunt tntdur(10)
12 : Resist Elements damres(12) damres(13) damres(17) damres(21) damres(23) damres(31)
14 : Combat Jumping defbuf(14)
16 : Swift runspd(16)
18 : Super Jump jmp(18)
20 : Health hel(20)
22 : Stamina endrec(22) endrec(23) endrec(27) endrec(27) endrec(29) endrec(29)
24 : Haymaker dam(24) dam(25) dam(25) dam(31) dam(33) dam(34)
26 : Invincibility thtbuf(26) thtbuf(48) defbuf(48) defbuf(50) defbuf(50)
28 : Resist Energies damres(28) damres(31) damres(33) damres(34) damres(36) damres(37)
30 : Knockout Blow endred(30) dam(33) dam(34) dam(36) dam(36) dam(37)
32 : Air Superiority dam(32) dam(40) dam(43) dam(45) dam(45) dam(45)
35 : Tough Hide defbuf(35) defbuf(46) defbuf(46) defbuf(46) defbuf(48) defbuf(50)
38 : Foot Stomp endred(38) dam(39) dam(39) dam(39) dam(40) dam(40)
41 : Conserve Power recred(41) recred(42) recred(42) recred(42) recred(43) recred(43)
44 : Rage recred(44)
47 : Resist Physical Damage damres(47)
49 : Unstoppable recred(49)
-------------------------------------------
01 : Brawl acc(01)
01 : Sprint runspd(01)
02 : Rest recred(02)
I think on Kara, in light of I5's numbers and assuming I continue to play her, I will not slot powers offering under 20% resistance. I can take slots allocated to Resist Energies and Resist Elements to slot in attacks instead...
Bah, who am I kidding? I am working on a new Dark Melee/Dark Armor Scrapper in an attempt to have a character that plays as Kara did, and able to resist attacks. Instead of turning Kara into a weak scrapper, I am creating a scrapper that also have superior resistances and defenses overall. Kara will sit on my pedestal, lovely to look at but sleeping until her deliverance is brought with rollbacks. In the mean time, I hope this scrapper can offer similar gameplay.
And am working on an Ice/Ice blaster who can control just in case the scrapper gets hit in I6.
Most of the Invul tanks from my level 38 up to 50 that i have spoken with on justice are thinking we may or may not have to 6 slot Invince for more def, and may or may not have to pick up Tough and Weave. But what we have as a buffer BEFORE buffs (buffs which my be almost a 90% FOR SURE requirement) will help regardless. So even if we DO cap at 20% or whatever it is, you will be at a similiar-to-i4 cap after buffage, atleast from what testing is showing.
Fun build to play around with...
Refering to my current build? if so it works remarkably well and ive even been told had i slotted invince sooner id take even less dmg then i do now from +3 x50-100+ mob herds :P.
I am seriously considering adding 3 more slots to Invincibility just for defense, and keeping 2 for To-Hit buff. That will give me 4 for Defense. We are getting a higher DEF cap with I5 as Tankers, so there is plenty of room to add slots to Invinc and expect returns.
Just remember boys and girls, no herding unless you are an Invuln build, in which case Statesman says keep your own personal group of 12 minions to equal what we used to have! This has been a public service message from the CoH Devs.
No, I was referring to my current build for Kara. 1 DEF and 2 for To-Hit, as per Havok's build.
4 in DEF should allow me to get by with a smaller herd of minions that the 12 Statesman said we should keep in melee range.
I have mine at 26,48,48,50,50 considering my level im not in to bad a shape i can move quite alot around at 38 lol, but who knows.
I agree! Under I4, this build was the most fun I ever had with this game.
[ QUOTE ]
Fun build to play around with...
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Was refering to Death_Seekers post.
All in all only time will tell :P, hope you saw my previous post was inquiring what "fun build" he was refering to, but i see no answer O.o
I think he was saying Havok's build is fun. His thread starts directly off Havok's opening post. Ah Havok, I adore him! I agree, we have all loved tweaking Havok's build to suit our own needs. Very fun to play with!
My build has had 6 revisions since my initial post pointing questions towards Havok, but in the end this is what works for me :P.
Ok its hard to give any solid advice now because of the flux in power that Inv is currently in but I would make a few changes to your build anyway.
Unyielding only at most needs one endrdx. Then once you get stamina slotted I would drop even that but that depends on what the value it will end with. If as positron suggests its 20 then six slot it with all damresist.
Even now I would suggest slotting Invincibility before Resist Elements. If the values on test go live I might even question taking Resist elements but I would certainly slot it very late in my build. After Invinicibility to be sure.
At level 22 O would take Knockout Blow. It is a great attack and will really help you out.
Fly hits its speed cap at 4 true but its so close at 3 the difference may not be worth a slot. More then that 2 endrdx slots in it are unneeded unless you plan on fighting while flying and then I would suggest getting hover and 6 slotting that for speed.