Black Hole is still broken...
By
Arinara,
Posted on: 2005-02-21 21:59 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I also don't have the Dark power and it does sound like there are some problems that DO need to be worked out (different visual for example). I do have Dimension Shift and agree with digdug. Though for me I do use it much more when I'm solo than in a group. When in a group it typically only gets used as a panic button or if there are a few close groups and we want to concentrate on only 1 or 2 and not have to worry about a 2nd or 3rd. I really like the fact it has a short recharge time compared to my other group hold.
Vector (Gravity/Kinetics) - Freedom
another shining example of the devs not knowing how the game works....who codes this thing, Kmart employees?
Who writes your posts? Syphilitic monkeys?
More than a few of the powers post-20 for many builds are situational. Like most status effect powers, Black Hole has a to-hit component and lessened effects vs. opponents of higher level or magnitude of resistance. Much like Dim.Shift, it's a resource hog. What's your complaint again?
edit: Yes, they should correct the text on intangibility enhancements so that people don't have to monitor the dev digest to get clarifications.Yes, it's silly for something like this to be just now clarified. However, it's not uncommon for sprawling MMO game systems.
Whatever man, It's a "situational" power move on. I have a grav/ff controller and he has lots of "situational" powers.
The intangibility can't be put on a toggle problem --
What about solving it like this - have make-intangible be able to affect otherwise unaffectable opponents? This would make sense because the power is just doing to them what they've done to themselves anyway. Then you could have toggle black holes and you could put them on phase-shifted enemies too.
I got a kick out of it making Winter Lords see-through. They looked like they were make of ice instead of snow! It didn't do anything to them otherwise, but I had fun playing with it.
I would use it if it was clear who was under it's effect. The fact that higher level things often show the special effect, even though they are not phazed out also makes it even less useful.
So then what's with the part that simply makes the enemies invisible instead of intangible?
Are we not supposed to be phasing out foes of a largely higher lvl than us? If so, then I really don't see much reason as to why. It's hard enough to hit them and it really doesn't help us defeat them. It would, however, allow us to run the heck away.
You know what is really strange about that is that you would need to put both Intangability and Acc enhancements into your power to acheive it! 
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I have a grav/ff controller and he has lots of "situational" powers.
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It's kind of the defining feature of the grav/ff build. 
"Destiny's powerful hand has made the bed of my future, and it's up to me to lie in it. I am destined to be a superhero. To right wrongs, and to pound two-fisted justice into the hearts of evildoers everywhere." -- The Tick
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another shining example of the devs not knowing how the game works....who codes this thing, Kmart employees?
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You know, the devs do a darn good job on this game, and do know how the game works just fine...why not show some respec for these people and their hard work, or is that too much to ask from an ingrateful person as yourself?
As to the Kmart comment, these are the types of comments that will find yourself on the crap list of many people. Just because you have had bad experiences with people that work at certain department stores, or because the stores sell low cost items, does not make their employees of a lower quality than you (and yes, the implication is that Kmart employees are not smart). I have a friend that works at Kmart and is far from stupid, and just because he likes to work with people and in retail does not make him an idiot. Just be careful with making snide remarks like you did.
Geko: Thanks for posting.
I agree Blackhole and Dimension Shift are situational skills. The problem lies in that they may be too situational and serve very little purpose in their respective powersets.
I assume that the strength in situational skills is that in the right circumstances they prove stronger than similar powers designed to be used every fight. However if the main purpose of these powers is to be used as a Panic Button to allow a few breather seconds to escape battle, what makes it better than An AoE Sleep/Disorient/or Hold?
Or if the main function of this power is to "weed out" a few of the mobs in a group so you can tackle the ones unphased, why does this function become increasingly weaker/inefficient with each accuracy enhancement you put in the power? Again what makes this power better than a Sleep/Disorient/Hold? These control types are already "panic buttons" and retain efficiency as they also double as reliable forms of offense friendly lockdown each battle.
For Dark Miasma, The skill just becomes redundant as they already have an auto-hit disorient in Howling Twilight that also functions as a recharge debuff and an AoE rez.
For Gravity, Dimension Shift is the most skipped power next to Crush, and most people only skip crush because the aoe version Crushing Field becomes available just a couple of levels later. It remains the only other form of AoE lockdown in the entire set. Take the effects of Illusion's Phantom Army/Spectral Terror, Fire's Flashfires, Earth's Stalagmites/Salt Crystals/Earthquake, Ice's Ice Slick/Frostbite, or Mind's Mass Hypnosis/Telekinesis/Terrify. Would any of those sets ever trade any of those skills for Dimension Shift?
I guess what I am basically trying to say is that between the general consensus here on the boards and the data mining you are able to do, you can see how many people take these skills, how many actually use them, and most importantly how many people respec out of these powers. If there was a sound use for these skills, wouldn't the playerbase have caught on after about a year into release?
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For Dark Miasma, The skill just becomes redundant as they already have an auto-hit disorient in Darkest Night that also functions as a slow and an AoE rez.
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Just to note: Darkest Night is neither a slow nor an AoE rez - it is an anchored AoE accuracy/damage debuff. You may be thinking here of Howling Twilight, which is an AoE rez with a slow and disorient component.
However, Black Hole doesn't seem to do anything for me that Fearsome Stare doesn't do more cheaply - namely, make a group of mobs stop attacking. Black Hole has a longer range, and intangibility, but I can't choose when to turn it off; FS has a shorter range, and allows them an attack whenever they're attacked, but I choose whether or not - and in what order - to tackle them. <shrug>
(Edit: Wow. I never thought I'd see a thread on Dark Miasma get the little flame symbol for "hot topic!" Are there that many dark defenders now? Or is it just that those of us who are here are pretty passionate about the powerset?
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Just to note: Darkest Night is neither a slow nor an AoE rez - it is an anchored AoE accuracy/damage debuff. You may be thinking here of Howling Twilight, which is an AoE rez with a slow and disorient component.
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Sorry the Darkest Night was a leftover from a a sentence I was going to use but scrapped for the Howling Twilight Description. I just forgot to change the power's name. 
I always use "slow" to describe -recharge effects and "snare" to describe -movement speed effects.
Thanks for the headsup <edits above post>
Looking over a Dev's first response to this thread, I couldn't help but rant a little. Just though I'd share the love! 
Geko,
If one wished to implement this power as a toggle, would it be possible to change the way in which the power actually effects the foes? For example, while the toggle is activate foes would gain 100% resistance to all forms of damage, would be immune to knock down/back, and would have protection from mez powers, however their damage output would be reduced to zero. That would more or less emulate intangibility but would allow the server to reapply the buff/debuff ever server tick.
-Just a thought
-P.S: For Dimension Shift, do enhancers cause increased duration, or an increased +MAG to the intangibility?
-Thx
I know I will see you again on another game somewhere - one game can't hold all us crazies forever.
CuppaJo
Some people just need to be on the cross at all times for the attention, I guess.
Friggin_Taser
Black Hole isnt even as good a panic button as fearsome stare...
I disagree, MMZ. FS can get the Dark defender killed if the [censored] really hits the fan. The mobs get to snap a shot off before the debuff, and that can be it for the defender. Which usually means a TPK. But Black Hole can, if used right, give you time to regroup without actually dieing.
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I disagree, MMZ. FS can get the Dark defender killed if the [censored] really hits the fan.
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I havent found that to be the case. They instantly go feared and cower. I can reapply fear, and they stay feared, with no counterattack. I control absurd spawns with this power alone. Situational powers like black hole should be many times more powerful than every fight powers like fearsome stare. This isnt the case. Apparently situational just means "sucky, last resort, need something to throw because nothing else is recharged".
That depends on where the mobs are in the recharge cycle when you cast Fearsome Stare. If they have a power cycled and ready to use, they use it. Sometimes, you get lucky when you use FS to get outta dodge. Sometimes you don't. IMO, Black Hole is much safer.
YMMV.
I dont have a dark defender but id still like to post here from my experience on this power.
It can be effective but the fact that it only lasts 30 seconds means that if the team cant kill the first group fast enough then whatever group dimension shift was thrown on will come out with a vengeance for the dark defender and there is nothing you can do about it.
There should be imo some way to enhance the duration of this power.
Thanks for the input Geko, could you explain this?
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It accepts phase enhancements, but they do nothing. There is no magnitude increase, no duration increase, nothing. As far as I know there is no way to increase the duration of the power and it seems to ignore magnitudes altogether (quite unlike dimension shift from gravity control).
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When you said:
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That means Enhancements will not increase the duration, but rather the Magnitude. What this translates to is the more Intangibility Enhancements you slot in, the higher rank and level foe you can affect, but the duration is constant.
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It seems the magnitude would be obvious, all the minions phased, the bosses not (sounds pretty usefull, 30 seconds to pound an AV with all the minions phased?)
And about the accuracy, is it possible that accuracy enhancements aren't working in the power, or do many villains have phase resistance?
I am debating on getting Black Hole. I do like the panic button feature, but it seems like I can get that in fearsome stare, which I already have.
How about this for a change to Black Hole:
When mobs phase back in, aggro is wiped. This does 2 things. First, it prevents the Alpha strike on the caster of BH, and second, it allows for a clean retreat (if everyone is out of aggro range).
One abuse I could see w/ this is just using BH to bypass content. I do not know how big of an issue that would be considering that there are ways to bypass content as is.
Anyway, what do you think?
Wow necropost.
Anyway this is one of those powers that needs to be totally rewritten. Why phase? What it should do, is be a targeted AoE/Slow/DoT. Intangibility? What a joke.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
To be honest Quizzles original complaint is valid. For goodness sake enhancing the mag but not duration yet named intangible duration enhancements is just insane. Geko's defenses of this power are completely out of this world, they sound quite defensive.
Except in a "Everybody run" situation I can't see black-hole having use. Dimension shift is similiar but I believe has more love as it is in an actual control set.
Black-hole should be eliminated. Necro-post or not.
I have a gravity/kinetics controller with Dimension Shift, and and a Dark/Dark defender without Black Hole (yet). So I thought I'd pipe in for a sec on this topic since the powers are, to my knowledge, identical.
Contrary to popular belief, Dimension Shift is actually pretty useful if used properly. The main thing to keep in mind is that, if you're in a situation where you or your team isn't doing much AE damage, or it's unsafe to do big AE attacks because the opponents are too high level, then it's much safer and easier to handle those opponents one at a time or in small groups then all at once en masse.
To that end, Dimension Shift and Black Hole are extremely efficient at splitting up groups of opponents that are spread apart. For example, if you have three or four opponents in melee and another three or four at long range firing rifles, you can phase out the gunmen and concentrate first on the melee opponents. Because Black Hole and Dimension Shift last so long and recharge quickly, they're very endurance efficient and fairly reliable.
I've found with my grav/kinetics controller that Dimension Shift works quite well with knockback attacks like Repel. If the opponents are all in a tight group, and it's not a good idea to take them all on at once, you can knock some of them far away with Repel then immediately phase them. That leaves half the original group phased and the other half attackable.
Dimension Shift also works well on red or purple opponents even if they're in a tight group because it hits only some of them due to lowered to hit chance. That means you can phase a tight group of reds and about half of them will be phased, the other half attackable. Provided you and your team can tell the difference (which is easy for Dimension Shift), you can usually take out the unphased ones before the phased ones return to normal.
My guess is that, for a Dark/Dark defender, Torrent plus Black Hole has a similar synergy. Use Torrent to knock half a group flying back, then Black Hole the furthest one out. That should phase out most of that group but leave the ones you didn't Torrent unphased. Not having Black Hole yet though, I haven't had the opportunity to try this strategy out.
I should also mention that you can use phased opponents as anchors for toggles like Darkest Night and Enervating Field. Even though the phased anchor himself is phased out and not debuffed, the power itself is there affecting everyone around him. That means that, if you use a phased opponent as an anchor, your teammates can't accidentally kill your anchor! (Woot!)
So I'm not saying everyone run out and respec into Black Hole or Dimension Shift. But depending on how you normally play they can be quite effective, so it's more a matter of perspective on how useful they are. I like Dimension Shift, and I use it on and off almost every session with my controller, so I'm finding it hard to believe Black Hole is as useless as some people claim.
Just my guess though.