Statesman, issue with your position on blasters
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No, there is a difference between contributing and doing the lion's share of the work. Consider a team with 2 Scrappers, 2 Tankers, a Controller, a Defender, and 2 Blasters. If the Blasters are contributing 33% of the damage of the group they are pulling their weight and you're not going to kick them to the curb.
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Why on earth would you take 2 blasters that can contribute direct damage to increase the groups damage output by 50% when you could take 2 defenders that provide that same direct ranged damage to the tune of 35% and have buffs that combine for a 50% increase across the board to everyones damage on top of that?
The second option gives the group significantly more damage output, so what is the point of having a damage only AT in the group if taking someone else gives the group an even higher damage output?
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Is there a reason why the Defender in the team would be hogging the benefits of Accelerate Metabolism to just himself and not hitting every member on the team with it?
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Where on earth did I say that was occurring? In fact I think it is implicit that I was not. As a rule of thumb AM provides a 25% boost to total damage output to every person on the team. This means that with AM alone the defenders own damage output comes to within 13% of that of a blaster.
Now add a second person to the mix say a scrapper and the total team output is higher then that of what you would have with that scrapper and a blaster.
Now add a blaster and they receive the same benefit you say? Well yes they do, but if you add another defender with AM they receive it as well, and also grant the benefit of a second AM to everyone in the group. The result is the same again, adding the defender to the group increases damage more then adding the blaster would.
So, adding a blaster to the group isnt the best way to increase group damage and damage is all blasters do why add them.
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Anyone at lower level than the team average is less effective, that's the nature of the beast
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there is a big difference between les effective and ineffective.
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.Build Up adds 100% of base damage, Aim 62.5%. Enervating Field adds 42%
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You do realize that a 100% increase of base damage to a power slotted with 5 damage enh nets you about 35% more damage while at the same time actually using the buff costs you 20% of your attack rate. Aim actually works out to a decrease in total damage for many attack sequences.
Tanks can tank things well above their own level, bufs and heals are not touched by relative mob level and even scrappers can contribute by keeping mobs occupied, even if they dont provide much offence. The only AT that contribute nothing at all if they are lower level then the team is blaster.
When did I EVER say that my build was gimped?
When did I EVER say that scrapper defenses were over balancing...
When did I EVER say the improvements to other AT's were unfair?
When did I EVER say I souldn't solo?
Get a [censored] clue.
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However as an experienced player of Blaster i will tell you Erratic that despite the your onpaper logic, you are wrong. It is very important for Blasters to be among the highest levels in the group or Sked up there for two very important reasons.
#1 Is survival
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Agreed. If youre a blaster and you arent familar with running, I need to shake your hand.
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#2 Is Performance. The Blaster is an offensive AT moreso then any other AT. That means the greater the level difference, the lower his damage and accuracy becomes.
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Agreed.
We do get the raw deal in a certain way. I have a lvl 28 invul. tanker how comes along with me (lvl 31 ice/fire) and he and i will split up to do missions faster. He keeps the pace without a sk and barely taking damage, while youll see me dipping into yellow every now and then. If the roles were reversed and I was three lvls under, I would be toast.
Good points, well done.
Ice Blasters own.
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However as an experienced player of Blaster i will tell you Erratic that despite the your onpaper logic, you are wrong.
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And I'll tell you that experience says otherwise. Your position is that it HAS TO BE YOUR WAY and I'm telling you I join teams where the Blaster isn't the highest level. That fact alone denies your position of what MUST occur. It doesn't. Period.
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#1 Is survival. AoE generates a lot of Agro. Being at or near the level of the opponents both increases the speed at which the blaster can kill the enemies in his blast area thus increasing his survivability, and reduces the damage they can deal in return thus further increasing his survivability. A lower level blaster facing a crowd of purples will often not use his AoEs at all becuase even 1 of those enemies were agro to break (and it does quite often despite any number of crowd control on the part of his teammates)
would kill the blaster very very quickly. Likely more quickly then the Blaster's teammates could react. Often even 1 rogue minion is enough to produce a running blaster or a dead one.
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First off, not every Blaster is wallowing in a sea of AoE attacks. Sorry, we can't all be Fire blasters (well, we could, but we aren't).
Second, the claim was that a Blaster has to more often be at the top of the level structure to be useful to his group. Not to one-shot kill the targets he's dealing with. Yes, things that are orange, red, purple aren't going to fall to your AE. They also aren't going to take as much damage from you and hence will be more easily distracted by the larger amounts of damage that the higher levels in the group are putting out. The fact is borne out by the reckless abandon with which I've always tossed Ball Lightnings in groups as a Defender--I do less damage than the Blasters do the mobs that are agrgro'd don't turn my way. Sure, I have to worry about things that didn't have aggro, but that brings me to my next point. . . .
Third, you are in a group. That means that you have group members to support your staying alive through buffs, debuffs, healing, holds, etc. The picture you and Moridin_ are painting is of the lone Blaster even within a group who shoulders the burden of dealing all the damage AND trying to stay alive while the others apparently twiddle their thumbs and pick their butts. One idly wonders why their apparent lack of contribution is acceptable while the Blaster being lower level and contributing nothing (according to Moridin_) isn't, but let's not unrail things with logic, as clearly logic is the tool of the devil and going by emotion apparently is all that works in this forum.
I've been on the team facing purples before as the lower level person and that didn't stop me from making whatever attacks seemed necessary at the time. I may have delayed so that someone else could get aggro, but then as the higher level that was something they were better suited to take.
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#2 Is Performance. The Blaster is an offensive AT moreso then any other AT. That means the greater the level difference, the lower his damage and accuracy becomes. Once you get up into the +4 range that Blaster is going to be practically useless. Conversely if the blaster's enemies are only even con or +1 the Blaster is going to be very effective. Teammates know this. They are going to demand that a lower level Blaster be sidekicked up as close to the highest level member of the party as possible. Trust me i have been there. When the sidekicking goes down Blasters get top priority.
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One wonders what the Scrappers are out there to make them less offensive as an AT than a Blaster. Yes, I'm full aware of the impact of relative levels between character and foes in the game. You bring up +4 range making a Blaster practically useless, but let's look at the numbers shall we?
At +4 levels you're looking at a 48% chance to hit and 48% effectiveness on powers, base. That's before Accuracy enhancements and buffs that that fool with your accuracy and the target's defense. You're on a team. I suppose the team is just sitting there while the Blaster does all the work? I can point you to a demo file showing a Rad/Dark taking on a group of Reds. So with less damage base than a Blaster he's dealing sufficient damage often enough despite the level difference to succeed ON HIS OWN. Now magnify by a team where Tankers are holding aggro, Controllers are plain holding, and Defenders are buffing/debuffing. One more measely level is not breaking the Blaster. Again, you may not like not seeing the big tripple digit number floating off your target, but that's a personal matter not one of your not contributing.
This isn't to say that sidekicking shouldn't be done. You do what you have to as a group to get by, and at 4 levels of difference I'm personally going to want to be sidekicked whatever AT I am. But if the higher levels aren't there in sufficient numbers to take care of everyone, I'm not running away due to 4 levels of difference and that's regardless of what AT I'm playing.
And to put my money where my mouth is, I've never turned away any AT solely because of what it is nor, within a moderate range of levels, have I ever turned away any player who wanted to join me in a group. If I'm out there with my 40 Defender and a 36 Blaster wants to join, I'll probably seek white to yellow targets from my perspective, and scale up as his level approaches mine. I will offer the SK to be sure, but only so that he isn't worried about how much he is contributing. I'm certainly not going to demand it.
Under construction
You are wrong erratic. dead wrong.
If I had a nickel for every time I peeled a mob off a tanker with just a single target attack....
For every time a healers heal fired off a splitsecond after I was one shotted.....
For evertime I was killed with every buff known to empath and kinetiscist pinned on my [censored]..
For every time the one shot that got through a force bubble one shotted me I'd never have to pay my subscription fee out of pocket again. and it is important for a blaster to be higher up when teaming. First of all try hitting anything +4 without a sidekick. whiffing in the wind. A blaster who cannot hit his target is a blaster who provides no damage support. what else are we there for? So that the one shot that kills us dosen't kill someone else?
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I have to put in my two cents here. I am currently well into level 35, I run through FF and Bricks when not doing missions. I look for groups of 3 or 4 whites, including Lieus in between my Novas. I have the Nova regenning every 2.5 minutes. I have no problems taking out the whites in this fashion, (the Lieu being yellow). If I am careful I finish and move to the next group, if I relax I just might die. Its fun, its a little dangerous, i do not feel gimped at all. In fact, I look for +1 or +2 groups when I Nova and can usually take out the remainders if I am careful to have an inspiration available for end. It becomes messy if more than one thing survives the blast, once again a little bit dangerous but not undoable. This is basically the same thing I was doing before update 2 and in fact Im doing better now because I have respec'd. I cannot feel gimped by update 2, and nor do I think I am so overpowerd that I need to be nerfed at this point. I seem to be the minority, a happy Blaster, but I wanted to let all know that there are some of us out here.
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Happy that you are happy being a one trick pony. Personally I'd rather have a bit more in my repertoire than walk up invisible and 1 shot a group rinse and repeat.
I think your position at this point is issuing from your hind regions unfortunately. Not the absolute highest maybe, but like i said, no more then 2 levels under the highest member.
Im sorry but i dont care what "the claim was". I am not arguing someone else's position. I am stating my own.
In terms of single target blasters ile grant you that agro is much more easily controlled as a single target blaster. On the otherhand a single target blaster's contribution in potential killing power from the outset is that much lower.
As to monsters being "distracted by the gobs of damage that higher levels are putting out", this is really quite false. Monsters show a great propensity for sensing lower heroes enemies. All it takes is 1 or 2 of them to go for that lower level blaster and he is often dead before anybody even realizes what is just happened.
At the same time you said yourself that even a high level defender is not kicking out as much damage as a lower level blaster and also you have defences. A defender does not fall over dead if 1 enemy looks his way. You cant use your Defender to speak about a Blaster its like night and day.
Your speaking about support also underlines your lack of experience. You have probably heard that blaster die quickly yes? But you have no idea just how quickly that is. A Blaster can very easily be dead from +4s before those support characters even realize that the Blaster is in trouble. I am talking one minute the blaster is fighting and the next he is dead. I have literally been killed faster then the activation time of the heal that would have saved my life. You have that happen a couple of times and your tune will change.
I dont know what city your living in but in Paragon City, a Blaster in a group DOES shoulder the burden for dealing the majority of the damage just like the Tanker shoulders the burden for absorbing the majority of the damage and maybe you have been blind to this or havent played a blaster high enough to know this, but at the end of the day the Blaster alone is responsible for keeping himself alive. Why. He dies faster then help can arrive. That is the plain truth of it.
On your idle wonderment you inordinately underlined my point. It ISNT acceptable. That is why Blasters get a raw deal in grouping. That is why so many blasters turn to solo and duoing as opposed to grouping.
Once again your taking a Defender and using it as an example to make statements concerning a Blaster. They are different ATs having very different capabilities and weaknesses. A Rad/Dark or whatever other Defender has the defenses to do that. A Blaster doesnt. The fact is that ONE minion is enough to scare the crap out of a blaster at those types of relative differences. Just one. You could throw all the support in the world out there and some enemies will STILL get through.
You wonder that eh. Well ile tell you. The Scrappers are not a total offense and nothing else AT. They have a Defence line as well. This makes them a less offensive AT then a Blaster.
And i dont mean to imply that it is such a hard drop off. It becomes exponentially more risky and dangerous for a Blaster as the relative level goes up becuase of his fragility and becuase of the fact that his main defense is the ability to kill the enemy fast. +2 I think is a sweet spot. Below that and you might as well be soloing. Past that and the risk of death simply doesnt make it worth it.
Im glad that your so nice, but you arent everyone. More to the point, you arent seeing this from the Blaster's perspective. Only from the Defenders. (which isnt suprising since you have played defenders and not blasters).
Much of the impetus comes from the Blaster himself. If the group needs that Blaster Sked they will demand it but often they dont. They probably have another higher level blaster.
But the blaster himself is facing uselessness and a high risk of death.
However as i said earlier. Its a raw deal. Thats why yous see so many Blasters soloing or duoing.
I think maybe just maybe some of this might get fixed when tanker attacks have built in taunts, aren't they working on that? The problem is that tanks can't do enough damage to get enemies off blasters. Scrappers seem to be able to but shouldn't tanks be viable as meatshields?
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I think maybe just maybe some of this might get fixed when tanker attacks have built in taunts, aren't they working on that? The problem is that tanks can't do enough damage to get enemies off blasters. Scrappers seem to be able to but shouldn't tanks be viable as meatshields?
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You won't always be able to find a tanker. and not all tankers build provoking aggro bots. I personally pull my teams from my super group or friends list,.... and even though botha are large I can't always find a tanker. ... nor should you have to.
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I think maybe just maybe some of this might get fixed when tanker attacks have built in taunts, aren't they working on that? The problem is that tanks can't do enough damage to get enemies off blasters. Scrappers seem to be able to but shouldn't tanks be viable as meatshields?
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You won't always be able to find a tanker. and not all tankers build provoking aggro bots. I personally pull my teams from my super group or friends list,.... and even though botha are large you won't always find a tanker. ... nor should you have to.
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No I agree. But I thought we were talking about the difficulties of aggro for a blaster. We sometimes are scared to use our AOEs because we get alpha struck by the enemies. But if you are soloing this aggro thing isn't an issue. So speaking from a group standpoint there is a problem because Blasters do the most damage but can get hit with the least so there need to be other forms of aggro besides just damage otherwise the blasters are always the source of aggro or they are forced to use their smaller damage single target only and then what are they really providing to the group. It's like blasters are expected to be the sacrifical lambs for every battle.
actually I don't mind the aggro. I know when to use my powers and when not to. But if the devs nerf my damage... then what's the point of me even teaming? If I do aggro something I'm dead meat because It won't be dying anytime soon. right now it's manageable only because the cons I hit are in a world of hurt by the time they close with me.
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I think your position at this point is issuing from your hind regions unfortunately. Not the absolute highest maybe, but like i said, no more then 2 levels under the highest member.
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You can do better than the above.
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Im sorry but i dont care what "the claim was
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Then feel free to not sidetrack with something else.
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In terms of single target blasters ile grant you that agro is much more easily controlled as a single target blaster. On the otherhand a single target blaster's contribution in potential killing power from the outset is that much lower.
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Headway here at least. Now feel free to classify the Blaster primaries as supporting AE or not supportinig and we'll discuss then the appropriateness of looking at the matter solely through the lens of AE impact.
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As to monsters being "distracted by the gobs of damage that higher levels are putting out", this is really quite false. Monsters show a great propensity for sensing lower heroes enemies. All it takes is 1 or 2 of them to go for that lower level blaster and he is often dead before anybody even realizes what is just happened.
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Not from my experiences and I've been low man at least as often as I've been high man.
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At the same time you said yourself that even a high level defender is not kicking out as much damage as a lower level blaster and also you have defences. A defender does not fall over dead if 1 enemy looks his way.
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Neither should a Blaster in a group. The same defense that the Defender is using is open to his group for the most part. If I'm using Radiation Infection to keep from being hit, everyone in the group enjoys that protection. Same with Force Fields, or Dark Miasma, or Storm Summoning powers. That is the entire purpose of the AT and why they are called "Defender" in the first place.
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I dont know what city your living in but in Paragon City, a Blaster in a group DOES shoulder the burden for dealing the majority of the damage just like the Tanker shoulders the burden for absorbing the majority of the damage and maybe you have been blind to this or havent played a blaster high enough to know this, but at the end of the day the Blaster alone is responsible for keeping himself alive. Why. He dies faster then help can arrive. That is the plain truth of it.
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Interesting mythology. Dies faster than help can arrive? Most of the Defender primaries are designed to provide help before the first shot is fired. And Controllers are designed to prevent the mob from even getting a chance to strike back. This is group dynamic here and yet you continue to paint the matter as if the Blaster is the only one using his abilities. Let me suggest that you find better groups to join.
Under construction
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When did I EVER say that my build was gimped?
When did I EVER say that scrapper defenses were over balancing...
When did I EVER say the improvements to other AT's were unfair?
When did I EVER say I souldn't solo?
Get a [censored] clue.
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Take a downer ya lil spaz. Or is it a bi-polar disorder? Everything you're freaking out about were, with perhaps the exception of one thing, questions, not statements about the content of your posts. If you can't handle a question feel free to not respond, period.
If you don't have a problem with the Defenders getting some endurance reduction, MA getting it's animations fixed, tankers getting endurance love, etcetera, why are you mentioning it? Are you just bringing it up because it seemed like a novel concept to break off about in conversation about how you'll never be able to solo if Statesman has his way?
You bring up these boosts to AT sets as if they weren't deployed at the same time as the respect trial. And for your information plenty of these wonderfully boosted sets ARE doing the respect mission to make better use of their builds.
You've stepped into the realm of complete jackhole. I've not once insulted you or called you names, and you resort to the most inane tactic. You take the smallest fragment of my posts, take them out of context, turn them into statements, and then throw a hissy fit as if I have somehow lost my bearings in your well thought our polemic. Well bullsh*t dood.
You can't keep it straight from post to post. Are blasters troubled now?
Hepher says, "Post 30 the game for blasters is a never ending battle to stay debt free."
Well, just above you say you never said you "souldn't" solo.
If your real worry is alpha-strikes going away. Well... Worry, that's why the mobs are being improved. The devs know that it makes combat trivial, and removes any need for anything but damage dealing. I think it's telling that of all the AT's the Blasters have been dealt the fewest boosts, perhaps because they don't need them. But give States some credit, he's not going to leave your AT high and dry.
You talk about your experiences a lot. What precisely is your experience with the Blaster AT?
All im saying is this. What your saying just doesnt pan out in practice. I have told you why but i can see that your set in your way of thinking. So all i have to say is i encourage you to play a blaster and see for yourself.
[censored] fei. you went after me then got pissed because I defended myself. you can't deal with it tough. I could care less If they got rid of alpha strikes if they balanced our AT so that we weren't so damned dependant on them. As for the improvement to the Other AT's I don't give two [censored] about when they happend. I was saying that the improvements came because players brought the Dev's attention to weaknesses in their power sets. Blasters try to do the same and people like you flood our board saying we don't need improvements.
I disagree. Our secondaries are gimped, and our AT is unbalanced. If people want us toned down we need something to balance out the other end.
if you want to attack someone go after the people who want your AT nerfed so that we all suck equally.
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Interesting mythology. Dies faster than help can arrive? Most of the Defender primaries are designed to provide help before the first shot is fired. And Controllers are designed to prevent the mob from even getting a chance to strike back. This is group dynamic here and yet you continue to paint the matter as if the Blaster is the only one using his abilities. Let me suggest that you find better groups to join.
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And now i know you're full of it. It's not a myth. what heal can save you from a one shot? absolutely nothing. I've killed Tsoo so fast that the socerers heal spell is a wasted expenditure of endurance. I've been one shotted by tank swipers and watched the green glow of heal hit me just as I slide to the floor. I been on Task forces with no less than 4 defenders with healing ability and still been killed. Sliced up by paragon Protectors, with empaths right there trying to keep me alive. And they are good at what they do. very good. but none of them can do the impossible. If my life points are 900 and I get salvoed or one shotted for 1000, all the healing on the planet means absolutely jack [censored]. even if the heal hits before the damage it dosen't effectively raise my hit points above max.
I PMed Statesman just before i started this thread. Today I got a PM back from Statesman. He agreed that he will post something like what he did with Tankers and Controllers and ask for suggestions when he decides to make the mob HP changes and any AOE changes.
Thanks, Statesman
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I PMed Statesman just before i started this thread. Today I got a PM back from Statesman. He agreed that he will post something like what he did with Tankers and Controllers and ask for suggestions when he decides to make the mob HP changes and any AOE changes.
Thanks, Statesman
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That's great of him. But if he'd have taken the time to post that here, there wouldn't be any fervor in the first place. But so far we got jack. Not a single post or acknowlegement. Do they even read the blaster forum?
Thanks for the news in any case.
Statesman is probably busy with the bugs from Update 2, especially the indoor missions spawning +1 mobs
Personally I hope he nevers gets around to making changes that will most likely end up weaknening us further 
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Statesman is probably busy with the bugs from Update 2, especially the indoor missions spawning +1 mobs
Personally I hope he nevers gets around to making changes that will most likely end up weaknening us further
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I like the +1 minions.... I like the +1 bosses too. great xp and awesome fun stalking the bosses with my new post respec stealth powers. But my fledgeling scrapper is catching hell with it.
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I PMed Statesman just before i started this thread. Today I got a PM back from Statesman. He agreed that he will post something like what he did with Tankers and Controllers and ask for suggestions when he decides to make the mob HP changes and any AOE changes.
Thanks, Statesman
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Wow that doesnt sound very promising
I wonder what the dev's will do ahen everyone stops playing as Blasters because they arn't fun. I have already switched to Scrapper as they are much better than Blasters and they keep nerfing blasters. They nerfed us once already, if they nerf me again I might just throw up my hands and say to hell with the game. It's not fun playing a game that after you make your character strong they nerf it all to hell. If each and every level is a struggle its called work. I already have a job and I don't have to pay $15 a month to do it.
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I wonder what the dev's will do ahen everyone stops playing as Blasters because they arn't fun. I have already switched to Scrapper as they are much better than Blasters and they keep nerfing blasters. They nerfed us once already, if they nerf me again I might just throw up my hands and say to hell with the game. It's not fun playing a game that after you make your character strong they nerf it all to hell. If each and every level is a struggle its called work. I already have a job and I don't have to pay $15 a month to do it.
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They'll keep getting money from the newly created scrappers of course.
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You talk about your experiences a lot. What precisely is your experience with the Blaster AT?
All im saying is this.
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Its what your insinuating as opposed to directly saying. Mob behavior doesn't change because its a Blaster that drops a Ball Lightning on a spawn as opposed to a Defender.
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I have told you why but i can see that your set in your way of thinking.
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Same can be said in reverse.
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So all i have to say is i encourage you to play a blaster and see for yourself.
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Been doing so and will continue to be doing so for at least the near future.
Under construction
However as an experienced player of Blaster i will tell you Erratic that despite the your onpaper logic, you are wrong. It is very important for Blasters to be among the highest levels in the group or Sked up there for two very important reasons.
#1 Is survival. AoE generates a lot of Agro. Being at or near the level of the opponents both increases the speed at which the blaster can kill the enemies in his blast area thus increasing his survivability, and reduces the damage they can deal in return thus further increasing his survivability. A lower level blaster facing a crowd of purples will often not use his AoEs at all becuase even 1 of those enemies were agro to break (and it does quite often despite any number of crowd control on the part of his teammates)
would kill the blaster very very quickly. Likely more quickly then the Blaster's teammates could react. Often even 1 rogue minion is enough to produce a running blaster or a dead one.
I know if im grouped and looking at a mob of +4 enemies i dont attack a mob that isnt under the direct control of CC. That means a monster that is stunned or the primary target of the Tank. If any mob so much as looks in my direction i run away. This may seem cowardly to you but this is what a blaster has to do to stay alive.
#2 Is Performance. The Blaster is an offensive AT moreso then any other AT. That means the greater the level difference, the lower his damage and accuracy becomes. Once you get up into the +4 range that Blaster is going to be practically useless. Conversely if the blaster's enemies are only even con or +1 the Blaster is going to be very effective. Teammates know this. They are going to demand that a lower level Blaster be sidekicked up as close to the highest level member of the party as possible. Trust me i have been there. When the sidekicking goes down Blasters get top priority.
A Blaster doesnt have to be the absolute top but any more then 2 levels under the top and you can expect an Sk to come your way and you better hope it does to, with pitiful damage output facing mobs of enemies any one of which can take you down before help can come your way you are going to be feeling pretty useless and you are going to be wanting that SK. (unless your leaching and hoping nobody notices your not doing anything, ive been there and done that to)
Is this a raw deal. Yes. The reason is this. A blaster can take down these even con and +1 mobs often without the help of a team or at most with only 1 support AT in tow. Thus grouping to take down higher cons provides less xp for the Sked blaster at greater risk of death then soloing or duoing.