Accuracy and Defense the Simple Explination
By
Amauros,
Posted on: 2004-07-27 04:59 in Player Guides
Thank you very much!
NP Arctic_hare alwasy glad to help a fellow gamer out 
Very helpful, thanks ThornKiller!
I have one question though, how does enemy level effect the whole thing, or does it?
In other words, will an even con minion have the same chance to hit as a +3 minion?
Where did you get these numbers from? Weave gives you a 15% Def unenhanced? Leadership gives you another 15%? Are these numbers invented for this example or can you point us to some kind of list of powers?
I would very much like to see what each power does for you. If you know somewhere that defines these powers I would appreciate you sharing.
Level difference effects the whole kitten caboodle.
The bigger the difference the more the higher level of the two has for a bonus to hit, to damage, and to defense.
[ QUOTE ]
Where did you get these numbers from? Weave gives you a 15% Def unenhanced? Leadership gives you another 15%? Are these numbers invented for this example or can you point us to some kind of list of powers?
I would very much like to see what each power does for you. If you know somewhere that defines these powers I would appreciate you sharing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I believe the 15% for Weave is real the Leadership I simply made up.
Def numbers are hard to come by. I know I've tested some of them 
Only one I can absolutely for sure give you is the 10% per foe in range for Tanker Invincibility. That is fully tested. Beyond that I can't say it's fact.
You've just reversed the concept. Floor or cap, its the same thing, you will hit a cap of 95% and you can't have more defense during any given combat situation. Having more defense available just allows you to hit the cap against higher level mobs.
You will never have a defense higher than 95%, and surplus goes to counter debuffs and level differences, this is what a hard cap is. A soft cap is something else.
A useful piece of information would be what % of defense and damage change occurs with level differences, I've been asking that question on a couple forums and I havn't gotten a response yet. Does anyone know?
[ QUOTE ]
165% - 110% = 45% To Hit
[/ QUOTE ]
Hrm.... 
Whoomp
[ QUOTE ]
You've just reversed the concept. Floor or cap, its the same thing, you will hit a cap of 95% and you can't have more defense during any given combat situation. Having more defense available just allows you to hit the cap against higher level mobs.
You will never have a defense higher than 95%, and surplus goes to counter debuffs and level differences, this is what a hard cap is. A soft cap is something else.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes thats pretty much it. Defence is a soft cap, based on the chance the mobs you are fighting have to hit you, not a hard cap based on some arbitary figure, like Resistance or Damage.
Chance to be missed is a hard cap, but that's a different thing to Defence, which is a game term with a particular meaning.
[ QUOTE ]
A useful piece of information would be what % of defense and damage change occurs with level differences, I've been asking that question on a couple forums and I havn't gotten a response yet. Does anyone know?
[/ QUOTE ]
I know I have seen the figures you are talking about for the chances for higher level mobs to hit, I think Geko (or maybe Poz) posted them in a thread about the famed purple nurf.
If I can find it i'll post the link.
Regards, Screwloose.
"I am not young enough to know everything."
How to Look Stuff Up Yourself - It's Fun and Easy
Looking for Powers Numbers try City of Data.
For Fraks sake read the Guides and FAQs
Global Chat Channels - Australia
Okay can't find anything about what chance mobs have to hit players.
There is some info about what chance players have to hit mobs in a Geko thread entitled "More Changed coming to Villain Difficulty" from a fair while ago, maybe that's what I was thinking of.
regards, Screwloose.
"I am not young enough to know everything."
How to Look Stuff Up Yourself - It's Fun and Easy
Looking for Powers Numbers try City of Data.
For Fraks sake read the Guides and FAQs
Global Chat Channels - Australia
I have both stealth and hover, and I often use them together. It seems to make a notable improvement in the number of hits that miss me.
I'm assuming that their effect is cumulative, please correct me if I'm wrong. But more importantly, does anyone know which of the two is more effective, or are they both equally effectve at defense?
stealth 7.5%
hover 5%
Its suggested that they are universal, but I think theres a bug and pool powers don't apply to AE defense. Maybe its by design, i don't know.
No I haven't reversed the idea
If you actually look at the code I can almost gaurantee that it comes down to the following logic:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
fToHit = fACC - fDEF;
if(fToHit < 0.05)
return 0.05;
else
return fToHit
</pre><hr />
There is no cap on defense. Get as much as you want.
Put it this way ... you have 45% DEF and fight a minion ... you drop him to a 5% chance to hit. Does that mean you hit the Ceiling. No you hit the floor.
Greater than 95% DEF does work for more than buffs and debuffs it works towards countering badguys that have greater than 100% ACC.
You do realize that there are badguys with greater than 100% ACC don't you?
lol ... no there is no cap on DEF there is no cap on ACC there is only a minimum To Hit percentage of 5% everything else is fluff.
Same thing with RES there really isn't a 90% Cap there is a 10% damage minimum. You'll always at least take 10% of the damage from an attack if you are hit by it.
It all comes down to game mechanics. It helps you understand why the Devs can't do a damn thing about Smoke Grenade stacking debuffs or why even though you have a 95% DEF that AV still hits you 50% of the time!
Why pick at straws man, your intelligent enough to know what people are refering to by a cap. You understand you'll not have more than 95% defense in any given situation regardless of the surplus available to you. This is what people are refering to as the cap. Its just a simple method of refering to the system and introducing new terms like "floor" doesn't help alleviate confusion. You've not contradicted what most players understand and refer to as the def cap. The cap is a hard 95% when applied.
You realize all the def bonus powers are dicussed in possitive numbers, hasten adds 5% not subracts 5%. Regardless of how the math formula is applied, people still look at the issue from front to back.
I realize the powers are acc debuffs but people are not refering to them as such and because it really doesn't make a difference at all when explaining the system why go out on a limb and create new terms?
Confidence the reason why it's important to know the difference is that many High Level Villians (such as AV's) have greater than 100% ACC
That means that if players think "Oh there is a 95% DEF limit and there is no point to getting anything beyond that because it only helps with debuffs" then they'll be friggen toast against an AV
Understand its a critically important difference if you are building a defense based Ice tank who doesnt' have RES they have to rely on DEF.
They need to forget the old "95% cap" and think in terms of a "5% Floor" if they want to be built to handle AV's.
Yes many of the experienced players know this but then experienced players don't need guides do the
This is for newbies who need to know the real way they system operates.
I guess to clear this up:
Do you contest that the real system is a 5% Floor to the To Hit %?
If not leave it be this is the real explination. That's how it works I understand that you are trying to be helpful and that's great but in this case I think when players build a 'guide' or 'FAQ' they should put in the true answer not some simplified half-correct one.
[ QUOTE ]
There is some info about what chance players have to hit mobs in a Geko thread entitled "More Changed coming to Villain Difficulty" from a fair while ago, maybe that's what I was thinking of.
[/ QUOTE ]
I haven't read that post yet, but it is likely to be the most accurate info we can get about this. However I do have the following numbers from the Prima Official Strategy Guide. Keep in mind that the guide was probably composed sometime in early beta, so these numbers could have been out of date by the time the game went live. They are now certainly wrong because of the balance changes made before and after the big patch. However the guide says that these numbers apply to both heroes and enemy mobs. I assume that whatever the real numbers are still do apply to both. I hope these stats will still be of interest. Maybe some people can use these as a baseline for testing.
According to the guide, the modifiers listed affect chance to hit, duration of powers (for those that have a duration) as well as magnitude of the power (for example damage on an attack).
-5 lvls or more x1.50
-4 lvls x1.44
-3 lvls x1.33
-2 lvls x1.22
-1 lvl x1.11
Same lvl x1.00
+1 lvl x.90
+2 lvl x.81
+3 lvl x.73
+4 lvl x.66
+5 lvl x.55
+6 lvl x.51
+7 lvl x.48
+8 lvl x.46
Well the table continues, but I'm tired of typing and since the numbers are so out of date, I'll skip the rest
--------------------------------------------
Little Robot - 36 empathy/rad
Dharma Knight - 23 claws/regen
There is a minimum and a maximum change to-hit. The minimum is 5% and the maximum is 95%. This means that everyone is guaranteed to hit someone at least sometimes, and everyone is guaranteed to avoid being hit at least sometimes. No one, hero or villain, can ever have a 100% chance to hit.
Very good point CGP!
Something I should have added. Indead the To Hit % is where the min and max exist. It has a Floor and a Ceiling. ACC and DEF have neither a floor nor a ceiling. They have absolutely no limits
EDIT: Ok there is actually a limit now that I think about it. I think the max DEF or ACC you can have is something like 400%
It doesn't matter if a Archvillian has 100% or more accuracy. You just start your addition at 0 rather than 50% (minion) or 25% (bosses). And if the archvillian has 200% accuracy, then you need to concider yourself to be starting at a negative 100%. From that point you add your powers, buffs and various effect to reach the 95%. The foes accuracies just determine where you start from and attempt a 95% defense.
Technically this is all incorrect, but its not inaccurate. Defense does work like your describing. If buffs and defense effects are applied in simple additon/subtraction math formula then its just going to be so much easier for a new player to get a grasp on what defense will be doing for them during a game situation.
You know, the game devs applied the numbers 25% for bosses 33% for LTs and 50% for minions. If you wanted you could refer to those numbers as 75% for bosses, 67% for LTs and, 50% for minions, and instead of adding your defense, you could subtract it to try to arrive at a 5% cap. And we could use the word floor instead of cap.
The system works both ways, most people refer to it as a 95% cap.
There is a problem where people are thinking that you start at 0 and build to 95% like resistance does. People are confusing res and def and maybe it would be better to reconcider defense to be a negative. Personally I'm not going to, because everyone around me isn't and I'd hate to be confusing. Its also easier for me to add the %s on the fly to decide how an encounter will turn out for me.
lol ... what you just described is confusing enough
Nah for me it's easy enough to realize that hey take the ACC of the badguy and subtract your DEF if the result is less then 5% then raise it to 5% if the result is greater than 95% then lower it to 95%.
Simple. I can explain it all ine a single sentance and it covers any situation. There is no cap to DEF there is only a floor and ceiling to the To Hit numbers.
But hey if something is simpler to you ... use it
You two are talking about the same thing, except that ThornKiller is subtracting defense from accuracy and Confidence is subtracting accuracy from defense. The final numbers are the same.. the only major point that ThornKiller is trying to emphasize is that your hero can actually have a combined defense above 95%.
On a side note, I thought I read recently in the updates that they did add a cap of 90% defense to heroes.. but I just looked through the updates again and didn't see it.
They capped RES at 90% so you can no longer have any RES over 90%.
[ QUOTE ]
stealth 7.5%
hover 5%
Its suggested that they are universal, but I think theres a bug and pool powers don't apply to AE defense. Maybe its by design, i don't know.
[/ QUOTE ]
Combat Jump 5%
Manuvers 12.5% for defenders
6-8 for others i have heard
[ QUOTE ]
Combat Jump 5%
Manuvers 12.5% for defenders
6-8 for others i have heard
[/ QUOTE ]
No, Maneuvers is 6.25% for everyone, even defenders. So if you're looking for pool powers to maximize your defense, the top three are Weave (10-15%, I forget what exactly), Stealth (7.5%), and Maneuvers (6.25%).
[ QUOTE ]
No, Maneuvers is 6.25% for everyone, even defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can you cite a source on that?
Been getting a request to repost this since the original seems to have disappeared from the boards.
My explination may not be as eliquent as before but hopefully it'll be as simple
First off there is no cap to Defense!
I want you to put that fact in the back of your head and we'll touch upon it again shortly.
Your base ACC's for baddies are:
Minion - 50%
Lts - 65% (some appear to get an ACC bonus from powers)
Bosses - 85% (some appear to get an ACC bonus from powers)
Ok there's our base line.
A foe has a chance to hit you equal to his Accuracy minus your defense with a floor of 5%.
Again there is a 5% to hit Floor! That is why there is not a 95% cap on DEF. People look at it the wrong way. There is a floor on what the minimum chance to hit you is.
So ACC - DEF = %To Hit
Now lets look at it this way. Lets say I have Weave and it gives me a 15% DEF unenhanced and I'm fighting a minion:
50% - 15% = 35% To Hit
Simple enough!
Now you'll encounter badguys with over 100% chance to hit you so if you have a 110% DEF all normal even level foes will have a 5% chance to hit you but that AV who has a 165% chance to hit would still hit you 45% of the time!
165% - 110% = 45% To Hit
Again not very complicated. ACC/DEF buffs and debuffs get taken into account before they enter into this equation. So if you get a +15% DEF buff from your friends leadership line then your 15% weave combines to give you a 30% total DEF (making an even con minion drop to a 20% chance to hit).
Hopefully that'll help some folks out there.