opprime28
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Posts
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Please, give Corruptors and Defenders access to at least ONE APP that offers an Ice theme as well as defense. Right now the only choice they have is the Patron Pool for Black Scorpion for defense and nothing for an ice theme. Ice Mastery would make total sense, given you can have ice blast AND cold domination Corruptors and defenders.
Just give it:
Flash Freeze or Energy Absorption (without the def buff aspect): Available level 35, would fit right in line with 1st tier APP powers like Power Sink, Dark Consumption, and Mass Hypnosis.
Freezing Touch (or Block of Ice): Available level 35, would fit right in line as well with similar powers like Dominate, School of Sharks, or Thunderstrike.
Frozen Armor: available level 41 if one of the previous taken. Nuff said.
Hoar Frost, Power Boost, or Wet Ice: available level 41 if one other taken. Wet Ice would finally give one other APP that offers status resistance besides Psy, but would need the def debuff resistance taken out, I think.
Hibernate: available level 44 if two others taken. Enough said.
This would keep it perfectly in line with the other Corruptor/defender APPs and Patrons, offering one AoE mitigation (flash freeze just like Mass Hyp) or end buff (Energy Drain just like Power sink or dark consumption), one single target high damage with some mitigation (Freezing Touch just like several from APPs), one armor, one self buff, and one panic button.
Please let those of us with concept toons stick to our concepts. Please, please please.
:-) -
Couldn't they have just made Catalysts recipes, then? Go to an invention table, open the Catalyst recipe, the only item you need to craft it is 1,000 inf, and Bam! You suddenly have the catalyst.
That way recipes could be mailed to whomever you want, and you could turn them in to catalysts. -
It could be cool to make this a "+ secondary, non-resistable dmg" barrier power. All of your secondary effects get a buff and your primary effects become unresistable for a brief period of time, then slowly become more resistable as time goes on. This could be great for all sets in situations where they face AVs, GMs, etc.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Uhm, Kinetics is melee oriented? Every power is ranged except for Inertial Reduction which is a poor mans Super Jump buff, and Repel which pushes opponents OUT of melee range so they can't attack you in melee.
Time Manipulation has 4 PBAoE's three of which (Temporal Mending, Farsight, & Chronoshift) are team buffs/heals, and one (Time's Juncture) is a debuff that does no damage.
Neither of those power sets are remotely melee oriented.
Now sure I have a lot of character concepts that would work better if I could ignore the Archetype restrictions and mix melee and ranged sets but I don't know if the devs will ever be willing to screw up the game balance to do it.
Edit: Far more likely to add a few more Power Pools that flesh out melee and ranged concepts, and easier to balance.
As has been pointed out, Kinetic's best "benefits" are almost entirely melee oriented. The heal and end drain/boost both trigger off the enemy, which 90% of the time is around the melee oriented characters. Can it be fired from range? Sure. Is that helpful to you when teaming? Marginally, though it does help keep your team alive. Is that helpful when solo? Not at all. Fulcrum shift offers a small buff at range, but the true buff comes at melee range directly centered around the mob. Unless you're suggesting that the majority of kins DON'T try to get in to the mob when they fire it off then you're statement is simply missing the point. If you ARE suggesting that, I have no idea what kins you've been teaming with because I know it wasn't mine and I know it wasn't 99% of the kins I've ever teamed with.
And as for Time, one of it's best powers, Time's Juncture, is PBAoE, meaning you're basically very close to melee range if you want to use it effectively. Coupled with the fact that Time also has a location debuff and a PBAoE heal as well as a massive +def buff, it almost seems designed to be able to live in melee range.
They are both very VERY melee oriented. Unless you're suggesting that having to jump in and out of melee range to be able to utilize some of their best powers most effectively does't make them melee oriented.
As for game balance...
Giving scrappers and tankers and brutes Ranged attacks would upset game balanced because the vast majority of NPC attacks are melee, and they are already heavily survivable sets. They would suddenly become nigh unkillable "tankmages."
Are you suggesting that giving defenders, who already have a few sets that play largely in melee range, a set that is more melee oriented, would somehow do the same? Just to be clear, you're saying that giving them a set with LOWER range and FORCING them to get closer to enemies, meaning open to more of the enemeis attacks, would somehow upset game balance?
It sure as hell would be nice, thematically and fit two of the powersets very, very well. But it would hardly somehow imbalance the archetype. As you pointed out, defenders can already fight in melee if the want to. If the don't want to use most of their AoEs, or don't mind the fact that for some reason someone who can control kinetic energy never thought to use that power to make him a kick butt fist fighter. -
Step 1: Make several "Skins" for different mastermind sets. For example: Carnie Skins for Thugs, Knives or Malta skins for Mercs. Circle of Thorns skins for Demons. Banished Pantheon skins for Zombies. Color Tintable but overall standardized unique options. Make them "prepackaged" sets but a variety of existing and unique looks.
Step 2: Place said "skins" on the market at a price similar to costume sets.
Step 3: Rake in the money.
Suddenly the resources spent on making them are worth it AND the players finally get what they've been wanting.
The end. -
I'd LOVE it if Defenders and Corruptors were given at least -1- melee themed and oriented assault set.
Lets face it, there are now at least TWO Defender Primaries that are heavily melee oriented: Kinetics and Time Manipulation. While Rad offers the most melee possibility, it still relies on almost entirely Ranged attacks. It's just difficult for both playstyle AND concept, sometimes. For example, I am currently running an ice/time defender, and while it actually plays OK in melee because of ice's short cast times and ice storm, it still means that ONE of its only two AoE powers requires me to jump way out of melee range to use, and was a pain in the butt conceptually to explain why this TIME controller is also shooting ice. I worked it out by having him create synthetic pillars of ice and flame to use offensively, but it was...a stretch. Just a couple of suggestions:
Staff fighting for Defenders: Port over Staff with the defender damage modifier in place and with a small reduction in the base damage of of the attacks, but a strong "form" effect. Swap out one of the melee AoE attacks for a ranged Targetted AoE attack which fires some sort of energy effect frin the staff (either focusing your "form" energy for a ranged attack or channeling your primary energy as a ranged attack.) This would make perfect sense for both magic oriented defenders who use wands/staffs for their spells and for defenders who are martial arts themed.
Earth/stone fighting for Defenders: Basically port a weaker form of Earth Assault over for Defenders. This would make a ton of sense for more "elemental" oriented defenders, or telekinetic oriented defenders paired with FF.
Kinetic Melee for defenders: Swap the Power Syphon +dmg aspect for a much stronger debuff. This makes a ton of sense for a TON of defender concepts (kinetics, time, etc.)
Essentially, this would be a way to use existing powers, rebalanced to fit defenders, for a new option for defenders and corruptors to better match some of the more melee oriented healing/buffing sets out there.
They still would have low HP, lower damage, etc. but sets like kinetics and time wouldn't have to juggle jumping around in and out of melee range to maximize the impact that they can have, and so many more straight forward concepts could be created. I'm not even asking for them all...but please...PLEASE give us one truly melee designed defender primary. -
Quote:Actually, it's a very common market strategy. They're called free samples.Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Oh really? And exactly how many non subscribers were able to play an account longer than 2 weeks and get higher than level 14 before Freedom launched?
Answer: None.
You can post otherwise til your blue in the face, it won't change the fact that allowing non subscribers to play at all is providing them with a "taste of what they are missing".
The only thing laughable is the sense of entitlement some people have requesting and in some cases (seen in other threads) demanding more handouts.
Lets face it, a free player gets a toon to 50 and can do almost anything in the game. Wht incentive do they have at that point to decide to start paying?
Two big ones: Re-rolling alts (more than 2) and Incarnate content.
Re-rolling alts...they know how that works. Incarnate content? They don't. Give them a few days to try it out and they might be 20% more likely to buy. Maybe more, but lets be conservative with our averages.
That means some of them will start paying. And it hasn't cost NCsoft anything. It hasn't cost you anything. It hasn't cost me anything. Everyone wins.
Those who DON'T decide to pay have gotten, in the long run, nothing for free, because everything they made is gone after the trial period.
I'm telling you that, as a tier 9 vet, Incarnate content is one of the only things keeping me paying. The other is having the character slots open, but since I have a ton of unlocked slots I bought before f2p I could still satisfy my alititis by just "retiring" my unused toons to other servers if I wanted to, so Incarnate content is really 90% of what I pay for. I'm also telling you I'm not alone. That means there are probably free players who would make the same decision if they knew how much more powerful incarnate powers made their characters. It's dumb to lose out on that revenue because a few VIP will cry "but they didn't pay for that!" The hope is that they WILL.
Have you noticed that Zune marketplace and VUDU have started offering not just trailers for movies for free, but sometimes 2, and even up to -20- minute previews? It's the same idea. Get them hooked. Incarnate level game is so different from the normal game it may warrant its own mini-trial. -
Quote:Actually you completely misunderstood. He isn't talking about people leaving the game, he's talking about coaxing free players to become paying players.Originally Posted by terrible_deli
The OP's suggestion only works if there's data to show that people abandon the game at level 50 because the non-paying player feels there's absolutely nothing to do in game upon reaching that point in their character's career.
In my experience, I've never heard any player complain about the lack of incarnate system is why they opt to leave the game. Heck, some prefer to stay away from that whole system because of the extra work it does entail.
Personally, the ONLY reason I'm still VIP is because of incarnate powers. I am tier 9 VIP and could quit and still use IOs, etc. and I've found the SSA disappointing, so Incarnate content is good enough to keep me paying. If that's true, its likely true it's also good enough to make OTHERS pay who wouldn't, otherwise, but they haven't been able to try it.
/signed. It wouldn't cost them a dime and could possibly bring in more revenue. -
I'm not sure how following the suggestion for stalker snipes would help any other archetype, since a key part of it is to make them chance to crit from hide, and no other archetype gets hide.
I suppose if you made it a "does double damage if fired when not in combat" or something, but Im pretty sure the minute you click an attack you're tagged in combat, so I don't know how that would work, and it would have to be double damage to warrant the 4 second charge, unless you're using it for a pull, in which case they work just fine right now and a "fix" isn't necessary. Since pulling is all but unneeded in the game now, I think that the entire concept behind that being the main use for snipes is what I was trying to address.
As of right, sniper blast takes 4.33 seconds, 3 of which are interrupt time and does just 40 points more base damage than the 2 second, non interrupt-able power burst. Blazing bolt is even worse, with 4.66 cast time and less than 40 more points base damage than blaze. These attacks are skipped because they aren't useable in normal combat by the majority of players, and when they are useful, the damage they do isn't balanced around the time they take, but instead the range they offer. This game has evolved though, and pulling isn't really useful for the majority of players. So how do you fix that without destroying sniper attacks for those who DO use them the way they are currently designed?
Perhaps they could make a mechanic that lets a snipe work this way.
Cast/interrupt time + dmg = your distance from target. In other words, the snipe cast and interrupt time depends on the distance from your target (base 2.5 seconds cast- 1 second interrupt, max 4.5 seconds cast - 3 second interrupt) and for every 25 feet you are from your target it gives a tic of DoT or a 15% chance to crit.
So if I fired blazing bolt at a target who is 150 feet away I would have a 4.5 second cast time with 3 seconds interruptable, and do 217 base damage followed by 6 tics of moderate DoT or a 90% chance to crit. If I fired it at an enemy 50 feet away it would have a 2.5 second cast time, 1.5 second interruptable, and do 217 base damage with 2 tics of moderate DoT or a 30% chance to crit, etc.
This way snipes become useful in any situation, including but not limited to pulling. At close range they become a hard hitting attack with a solid but useable cast time, and at distance they become an extremely damaging attack, finally worth the incredible cast time, interrupt time, and end cost. -
I could see a use for both.
Player x is editing his base, a mission architect story, respecing, etc, and player y sends him a message or an invite.
Player Y recieves this automatic reply: "User x is editing his base (or an MA story, etc.) and will receive your message when finished."
When player x finishes his work and returns back to the "normal" game screen he then receives all of the messages he missed while he was unavailable.
This would be a nice QoL improvement, since there have been TONS of times I've been stuck deciding whether to continue respecing or editing and miss an invite I may want or leave the editing unfinished, check the message, then go back.
/signed. -
Quote:The only problem is that there may be some times when you're in combat but still want the extra damaging snipe attack (AVs, runners in a BaF, etc.) There would need to be some way to control how "focused" you want to be.Originally Posted by Oathbound
I think they could just modify Snipes in the same way that Assassin's Strikes were modified.
Now, there's no way to base the activation on "Hidden" status, like AS now does, but I think you could manage it using the same "combat" flag that causes Stealth Suppression.
Out of combat (pulling, etc) Snipers use the long interrupt period and deal Superior/Extreme damage.
IN combat they just use their non-interrupt activation time (Generally 1.3ish seconds) for a more moderate amount of damage. -
Im just going to keep this short and sweet. Snipe attacks are AWESOME in very specific, unique circumstances, but for 98% of the game, they're useless and most people skip taking them because of that.
So...to fix them...
Change the way sniper attacks are fired. Either two clicks or one that is held down to activate, then let go to finish. Upon initial click the power is "triggered" which activates the power and animation, getting you to "focus" on your target. The second is the "release" which actually fires the power. If tech allows, make it one click that is simply "held" unto you wish to fire.
How would this help? Make the base cast time 1 second, with a maximum of 4 seconds. The longer you "focus" your snipe, the greater the damage, accuracy, and end cost up to their current levels. So snipes could become part of a regular attack chain as a moderate damage 1 second attack, heavy damage 2 second attack, extreme damage 3 second attack, and superior damage 4 second attack. As it increases in power it also increases in endurance costs. Suddenly they can be used in the middle of battles as another regular attack without losing their very special function as long ranged, superior damage attacks when the situation warrants.
Place an on screen marker letting the user know the degree of focus he's achieved, and walla, you have snipes suddenly become a useful power which becomes far less skippable. -
Quote:Originally Posted by houtex
Tying anything to points can be exploited. If you make an action count towards points, beyond actually whipping out the funds in RL, or just keeping a VIP account on, then someone will farm it.
It almost like a Rule of MMORPGS: If it exists, there will be a farm of it.
...
Forcing me to watch some ad? You can forget that noise, or there'd better be a 'no cutscene' option available.
/Come to think of it, that should be an option anyway. Perhaps a "press Esc to quit cutscene." In the case of a team, majority rules.
Actually, the original suggestion could easily be implemented if you used the method I described. That method doesn't have anything that possibly COULD be farmed. It was either "you have option turned on and then get a monthly reward for it" or you don't. And no one mentioned ads in -cut scenes- except as a joke about product placement. What was mentioned were ads in place of -splash pages-, you know...those static screen images that show up when you first load the game or a zone/map. So instead of a giant image of Talos Island with a tip that says "go. hunt. kill skulls." the person with the option turned on instead sees a giant image of an ATI card that says "Radeon FX: Game like a hero." The player with that option on for the entire month gets, at the end of the month, 125 Paragon Points or, as I suggested, the freemium player gets one Vet reward token.
By the way, this could be done in a very "game freindly way" too, having the Radeon ad actually feature Positron placing it in some high tech device, or having Dr. Aeon pouring a Monster energy drink into an empty can of whatever that food stuff is called in the Rogue Isles with a tagline that says "Monster energy: refuel yourself."
If they have trouble selling these at first, they could very easily team up with an already established web advertising company to sell the splash pages as a single web ad, and once they have an idea how many people are watching them and how many screens a day are seen, it suddenly becomes much easier to market.
Quote:Originally Posted by Texas Justice
No way.
Nuh uh.
Nope.
Don't even think about it Cowboy.
Your argument is thoroughly convincing and logical! -
But is there ANY other melee or armor set that has a pet associated with it? I cant think of any.
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I've actually been thinking lately that they should make the "splash screens" that show when a zone/map is loading be an ad, and then offer people who opt in to seeing those instead of splash screens get a small market points reward or something. Freems could even be offered the option to see "video ads" play before they can officially log in and, in exchange, for each month they have that option selected, they can earn one of the VIP Reward tokens.
Just some ideas that wouldn't be at all intrusive but would allow for some increased revenue for the game.
Just whatever you do, I DONT want to see Rommy suddenly wearing an Under Armor shirt and holding a Diet Coke in his hand.
Though an Abercrombie and Fitch style cutscene with Foreshadow might ok. :-P -
This idea is nothing new, but the approach I took is. Like many of the new power sets, Weapons assault uses a unique mechanic in an effort to deal with the one "down side" to a melee and ranged based weapons set: redraw.
Dominator Secondary set:
WEAPONS ASSAULT: Weapons Assault allows players to use a variety of ranged and melee weaponry to attack their foes. The weapons tend to weaken enemy defenses or knock them down from the sheer force of the impact. Your training has taught you the best weapons to attack foes at any distance, so altering your focal point between ranged and melee changes the weapon and fighting style you use. This gives you a greater number of attacks in each range, but slows your ability to shift from ranged to melee fighting compared to other Dominator sets.
Inherent Power: Focal Point: You can select Melee or Ranged mode. Ranged mode equips your dual pistols, giving you a chance to knock down your foes while striking them from distance. Melee mode equips your sword, allowing you to slice at nearby enemies and weakening their defenses. Any secondary attacks given while remaining in a single mode will not need redraw.
Available level 4
Dual Wield - Ranged moderate damage- Quickly fires a round from your heavy automatic pistols. Damage is moderate and the recharge rate is fast. This attack may knockdown your foe.
Available level 1
Quick stab- Melee High damage - You Stab at your opponent for a high amount of lethal damage. This attack can reduce a target's defense, making him easier to hit.
Available level 2
Steel Rain- Targeted AoE moderate lethal DoT- This power is affected by your focal point. If in melee mode, you perform an elegant spinning move with your blade, striking a targeted foe and all those nearby. If in ranged mode, you fire into the air, arcing your bullets toward a targeted foe and all those nearby. Both attacks do moderate lethal damage over time and have a chance to knock down those struck.
Available level 4
Focused Hit : Close- High Dmg- You concentrate, executing a precise strike at any range. This power is affected by your focal point. If ranged focal point is selected, they will suffer high lethal damage and be knocked down by the impact. If melee focal point is active, foes struck by this attack will suffer high lethal damage and reduced defense.
Available level 10
Targeting Reticle: toggle (+Acc, +special.) You carry the latest in targeting technology, a small lens for your eyes which increases your accuracy for all attacks. While active, this reticle increases your accuracy and can make some of your attacks more effective. (+5% chance for additional minor lethal damage to secondary powers, 5% chance for +status effect for Primary powers.)
Available level 16
Piercing strike- Extreme Damage, narrow cone. You execute your attack with deadly precision in a very narrow cone, piercing the armor of up to three enemies. When ranged focal point is active, you fire both of your pistols into the distance. With melee focal point, you stab your sword in front of you, swiping quickly from side to the side. Piercing strike deals Superior lethal damage and reduces a target's damage resistance for a short time.
Available level 20
Caltrops: Minor DoT (location AoE) You fling dozens of caltrops into the ground at a targeted location. The small blades cover a large area. Any enemies that pass over the caltrops will be forced to move at a slower rate and take lethal damage over time. If ranged focal point is active, the casting range is doubled from 25 to 40 feet.
Available level 28
Executioners hit- Sniper, (Superior damage-lethal)- Your experience with weapons have given you the knowledge to perform a fatal single strike. If ranged focal point is active this is a sniper attack that has added accuracy and boosted range. If you have Melee active, it has increased damage and a slightly reduced cast time. This is an incredibly deadly attack, but can be interrupted as you prepare to execute it. It is best fired when you are not in direct combat.
Available level 35
Gun drone: Ranged, Moderate DMG. You can summon a Gun Drone. The Drone has a Moderate fire rate and is equipped with a customized tracking system. Once locked on, the gun drone will continue to unload a volley of lead into the target until it is destroyed. The drone is armored but can be destroyed.
Available level 38
*This version of gun drone would have a reduced recharge rate on its attacks so that it's damage output is more in line with voltaic sentinel.
Overall Concept:
The idea would be to give Dominators a Weapons set that allows for the use various existing animations and weapons in the game, but still keep the unique aspect of Dominator secondaries: a mixture of ranged and melee attacks. The unique mechanic would both limit the feeling of redraw many users dislike and give the set a unique advantage via an increased number of both ranged and melee attacks, while not overpowering the set because in exchange you make quickly switching from ranged to melee or vice versa slightly less convenient. This entirely realistic for a character switching from using a sword to using a gun. It also has a unique variation of targetting drone, boosting accuracy all of the time like targetting drone, while giving for a slight chance for an additional boost to either your attacks or your mitigation powers. This is a fair exchange, IMO, for the more powerful boosts to damage or status effects of power boost or build up other dominator sets have. You trade occasional but incredibly powerful boosts for constant, less powerful or reliable ones. This set could also be adapted to become a new blaster secondary for weapons besides devices. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Agonist_NA
I am somewhat with you on that part, opprime, but since they are giving away 400 points free every month, I think what they are searching for is a price that VIPs are willing to pay in order to get it NAO that is beyond what those same people already have banked. Problem is, I think many of the prices are way too much to entice the casual free/premium user to plonk down some cash.
It would be very interesting to get my hands on the market data. I teach applied stats and do experimental design and statistical analyses for businesses. It would be fun to do some studies to find out the drivers in this market. Well, my idea of fun anyway...
What I do object to is people saying they are paying more or getting less for what they pay when it is easy to show that is not true.
I'm with you on the suspected reasoning, and on the interest in the actual data. I DO think you might be able make a case that it -appears- you may end up getting less for your 15 than you used to in the long run, but not on either "paying more" for it or on being to able draw -any- sort of specific conclusion this early in the game.
1 year down the road either side might have the evidence to support a claim because we'd see a trend (more powersets are coming out than VIP included sets and the points arent enough to keep up with them in a reasonable manner, or they're coming out at a fast enough rate and balanced enough between VIP and for-purchase that VIPs are still getting the same level of powerset expansion as they used to just for their monthly fees, etc.)
That sort of reasoning is EXACTLY why I think people should be voicing their thoughts along the way here in the forums: devs need to see what we think, how and why we make the purchases we do, and then they can properly adjust. Who knows, maybe it will mean a drop in prices, but it may also show them that a large enough part of the base is willing to pay 5 dollars a month MORE than they pay for their subs just to get the "new set now" and they can actually raise the prices. We don't know yet.
But demonizing players who feel differently than you is hardly constructive. And dismissing peoples' perceptions as "wrong" is foolish too, since their perceptions are, 9 times out of 10, what drive their purchases. Discussing things the way you have been, I think, much more helpful, imo. -
Quote:And I would totally agree with that statement.Originally Posted by Agonist_NA
Perhaps in some cases, maybe yours, PS makes a little less money since you are happy with Premium and don't pay for VIP. Maybe, in the face of all evidence, Capt C unsubs because he thinks he is paying more even though those monthly debits are exactly the same, and PS loses there. But on the whole, I think it is a rational business model that players can be happy with.
The key to it though, is proper pricing and implementation based on proper feedback. So when I come in here, posting my two cents, clarifying it is exactly that, it is a GOOD thing, not "whinig" or " ranting" or anything else people in here have jumped on and called it.
For me, the current pricing and implementation is leaning me toward spending less on the game than I was. NCsoft needs to know that so they factor that in. Theoretically, the more they know that from those who feel that way, the better the pricing and implementation will be for all parties.
One thing Im waiting for with my main account before making my final decision there is whether the next powerset or two to come out are "purchase only" or "free" to VIPs upon release. If the next one is "free to VIPs" I may begin to think that it will be more balaced, and over the course of the year 400 points will get me everything I want when I include what I get as a VIP. If it's a third "purchase only" powerset, it will likely convince me I'd get more of what I really want spending the money on points directly.
as I said, Im not hating on the business model. Im trying to make it as successful as I thought it would be upon hearing of it.
And for the record, I've already brought one new player in since it went f2p. As of right now they were waiting to decide if they liked the game before becoming VIP. Now, they're waiting to see what I do to see which is the smarter move. So this sort of feedback will help NCsoft make this system the best it can be as they try to make it survive and grow.
Now as a side note:
I STILL say that nickle and diming us is a WAY smarter way to get money from us than making things "expensive" up front. If costume pieces, for example, were a buck a pop, I and many others would purchase them on a whim as we want them. If they're 5 bucks a pop...we may buy one of two over a year that we REALLY want. they'd likely get more money under the first model. At least that's how I work. Take music, for example. I used to buy maybe 3 CDs a year for 10 bucks and no singles priced at 4 dollars, totalling 30 bucks in music purchases a year. When they started selling single mp3s at 1 buck a pop, I was probably spending 50 bucks a year because it was just 'a buck' here and there. Once they gave me all music I wanted in a subscription, I started paying rhapsody 12 bucks a month...meaning Im now up to spending almost 150 a year on music. This is the same idea. Find that balance. Either nickle and dime me and get more money because it's so cheap I dont even think twice about it with cheaper prices in the market, or give me access everything and get continue to get even more money because Im a subscriber (the past business model CoH had.) If you try and make it too expensive individually you'll end up getting less overall. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Honestly, I doubt they'll care, unless you actually do cancel your sub. Why should they, when this forum is always lousy with people claiming that they're going to cancel because NCSoft has done something utterly atrocious, and yet a month later they're still here to threaten to cancel about something else? By now, I doubt promises to cancel even register a blip on the radar, still less someone saying they might cancel.
As long as people keep ponying up the $$$, they can complain all they like on the forums. If you really want them to believe you, then cancel and tell them why in the exit questionnaire.
Well, I cancelled one of my two subs already, then found out that as a tier 9 VIP I will keep almost everything except for incarnate content, so Im very likely going to cancel my main sub at the end of this billing cycle (I renew on the 3rd of every month.)
That being said, I think you are grossly underestimating how many people actually DID cancel their subs and havent returned after things like the PVP fiasco, etc.
As I said though, Im not at all anti f2p, and I love this game. Im just finding that, at least at the present, it looks like I'll now be spending less on it to get the things I really care about , and I don't think that was NCsoft's intentions. I'll actually be saving anywhere from 30-80 dollars a year per account, depending on how I buy my points and how fast they come out with new content. Actually I'll be saving slightly more than that since I used to buy the occassional booster pack or character slot before, which I can now get with some of my 1300 pts a month. -
Quote:First off, 5-10 is sort of a big range. Secondly, this is the only thread I've posted about the issue in. And I only did so after friends in the game urged me to do so.Originally Posted by BigFish
But, this is only valid if a substantial minority of the player base decides to get angry about it. As it stands right now, I can count about 5 to 10 people who are being very vocal about the situation here on the message boards
The same message boards that fewer than 3% of the player base ever visits. The cries are far from deafening and the light from the torches barely makes a shadow off of the pitchforks...
So there may be more than you think. Remember, it's not about majority, it's about at what point the revenue scales begin to tip in the wrong direction.
Personally, I have NO idea what that point is. NCsoft does. So they'll listen and watch and Im sure in the end do what's best for the game overall.
Provided they fully understand WHY revenues tip whichever way that they eventually do. -
Quote:However, if McDonalds sets up a room specifically designed for customers to discuss and give feedback on their announcements, and sets one table up specifically for discussion and feedback of their pricing adjustments to condiments, and they hire people to monitor the discussions in that room, chances are...it's the perfect place for customers to explain why they don't like it and may stop buying value meals.Originally Posted by Lacklight
In any case, if McDonalds started charging for packets of ketchup, discussing the economic value and whether McDonalds would make or lose money out of the deal while eating your meal in the McDonalds dining area will not convince McDonalds to give back your free ketchup. Neither will discussing it with the staff of any individual store, who are rarely consulted in what changes ought to be made to the company. Buy the ketchup, or don't, and if that doesn't change the situation, and you cannot live without the ketchup, then go back to buying the ketchup, or go to Burger King.
*looks at the forum name and the thread name*
Yup. Seems about right. -
Quote:Originally Posted by bromley
I am personally not spending more, but it is because I resent strongarm marketing tactics. It might even result in my paying less, since I used to buy the boosters, but now feel that paying for extra points is like giving the dog a treat when it gets mud on the couch.
The pricing strategy for the Paragon Market is eroding my goodwill as a long time player. I no longer feel happy to throw an extra ten bucks to help fill the coffers of that game I like.
But I'm sure I'm in the minority, so no harm done, right?
This. That is exactly my point.
Is it the "correct" view or opinion? No. Is it a valid one? Yes. And NCsoft would WANT to know if customers begin pulling back on spending because of it, since it is, presumably, the opposite of what they were going for.
That's not being spoiled, or childish, or ranting. It's being a consumer, and being open with the company you're buying from, so that pricing reaches a proper level. -
Quote:Actually, Im being a good customer. Im not "complaining." I'm letting them know why I might be cancelling my sub, which many businesses spend, literally, millions of dollars a year to know and understand.Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
So, you're complaining that NCSoft is offering you a new option that allows you to spend less money and still access all the game content that you want to access? And you want them to stop doing that and instead go back to the model where you had to pay more, for content you didn't want?
That's...very charitable.
Dude, they're a commercial organization. You don't have to feel bad about taking advantage of their pricing structure. Cancel your sub and spend the $50 on something else!
I love this game. I REALLY want it to continue to be successful. Current pricing with the f2p model has me thinking I may cancel my sub to save money since I could get what I want for less. They need to know that so they don't think it was a rage quit, or an economic hardship, etc. It just -might- have an effect on how they decide future pricing and powerset releases. -
Quote:Actually, I "went there" because you seemed incapable of disageeing with someone without jumping immediatly to "they're whining and they want free stuffs nao!" I made it very clear in my post that I was neither whining NOR wanted anything "free."Originally Posted by Noobian_Prince
Considering your grammar above (and elsewhere) as well as your spelling errors (like "seperate"), you probably shouldn't go there.
Except you pointed out it was false by using a false comparison. Expansions are called expansions and not issues for a reason. They aren't the same thing. New powersets to any expansions you own have alwayts been included with the monthly fees. That was, for both sides, considered part of what the monthly fees were paying for.Quote:
You stated: "You have NEVER had to pay for powersets before." That's a direct quote. When I (and others) pointed out this is false, you tried to weasel out by claiming that expansions don't count. Yet you fail to give a coherent explanation as to WHY expansions are inherently different.
Quote:
Not exactly. You claimed that expansions were different from issues or updates because they "gave you new powersets, new zones, new arcs, tfs, etc." I pointed out the same was true for updates. So what's the inherent difference between a paid expansion and a smaller free update -- the packaging? If GR was DLC, would that mean it's no longer an expansion?
I already addressed this. Expansions are massive jumps in content bundled together, expanding the game somehow to a whole different world (or side, or whatever you want to call it.) In essence, they're new games within the game. I already stated that, almost word for word. Your assertion that because these massive bundles of content included powersets, you HAVE paid for powersets before is simplistic at best. It equates to saying that, since McDonalds has always charged for value meals, and the hamburgers in value meals have ketchup on them, McDonalds isn't doing anything new by suddenly deciding next week that if you want ketchup packets with your value meal you'll have to pay an additional 50 cents per packet. It's not the same thing, and everyone knows it. McDonalds has always given away ketchup as complimentary when you purchase food from them. It was "part of the deal" so to speak. Charging for it now is something new. Do they have the right to do so? Yes. If doing so will make me less likely to buy the meal from them should I, as a consumer, let them know? Yes. That's the way business works.
Then you weren't reading closely enough, or I wasn't being clear enough. The "expectations" were for both sides, referring to how our monthly subs have worked since the game began. We paid 15 dollars a month for the devs to continue developing the game and give us new powersets, zones, missions, tfs, etc. As I said multiple times, they've now decided that we change what to expect on THEIR end but, I assume, hope most of us don't change what they should expect on our end. Clearly some of us are ok with that, some aren't. Since all three parties are involved in this business venture, all three parties need to explain their reasoning so the best choices are made.Quote:
Actually YOU were. (That's why "established expectations" is in quote marks. I'm quoting you.) As to the point, I was trying to get you to realize that even though you may have an expectation based on the past, it's foolish to presume that it was always be that way.
In the second part, I had just copied some of your statements that appear to indicate that you were in favor of the new model pricing since you thought you were get "MORE cool stuff" (your words) at no extra cost to you but from "added revenue" from Premium players. (I'm ignoring the self-evident fallacy of getting revenue from free players and your confusing VIP and Premium customers.)
As I said, again, muptiple times, I was fine with f2p. It meant I would get what I've always gotten for my 15 dollas a month (maintianing the expectations set by past practice) and I would have the option to purchase more when I desire. The devs would be able to live up to it because between myself and the new players, they would be getting new revenue for the new stuff they are putting out. To go back to your car analogy, it's like my automaker suddenly deciding to hire 5 engineers who will be designing new features for the car I have been leasing for the past 6.5 years. I continue to get my car for my current lease fees just as I always have, including all of the maintenance and upkeep that was part of my original lease deal. If and when I want some of the new features I can buy them at additional cost, just like people who aren't in a lease. The problem I'm having is that a month in to it, it looks like they're moving oil changes from "covered maintenance" to "new features" and offering me "free points" to pay for them...only the free points only cover one oil change every 7000 miles, not 3500. It's not enough points to cover it, and Im feeling like Im getting less for my lease price, not more. Having a second car Im leasing, it makes it even less appealing. I may decide it's time to trade my lease in for another.
Again, time may show this to NOT be the case, and this back to back and high cost pricing may be a fluke as we get started, but I need to voice my concern about it to make sure they're aware of how at least part of their customer base feels.
The maturity is shown by being able to disagree with someone on an intellectual or personal level and not somehow see them as my enemy. A lot of posters in here are making solid arguments back and forth, and actually addressing the ideas of others. You seemed much more interested in just dismissing mine in a childish rage...for example...Quote:
If this is you being mature, color me relieved you're not the "snit" type.
You took several quotes out of context, the very context of which explained them in ways that you called "objective." Then you set up a couple of straw men (things I never said), you ignored half of what I did say, and I can only assume were doing so because somehow you've seen others make those types statements so you just saw key words, ignored the rest, and lumped me in with them. Also, I backed up everything I said with reasoning and even specific numbers when available. I clearly stated I wasn't in a rage, wasn't quitting the game, but that my payment method may change in my very first post. You simply ignored it and went in to ad hominem attacks and an elitist tone, likely because you were attributing the posts of others to mine.Quote:
When you say something like, "I don't think the current pricing model is to my advantage. I think I would get a greater benefit from not paying a subscription and spending the $15/month on Paragon Points instead." is an example of making a case for a proposed action. Regardless of whether someone agrees or not, this is NOT mere bellyaching since it gives objective REASONS for the argument.
OTOH, statements like:
- "I don't WANNA wait and save!"
- "But I have EXPECTATIONS!"
- "I've never had to do that before!"
- "I want it now!"
are mere unreasonable rants and = whines. Do you see the distinction?
(BTW, you aren't helping your case with illogical statements like:
without anything to back it up.
THAT is what made me think there was either a language barrier, or a maturity one. -
Quote:And as customers, we can voice that what we get for subs under the "new model" is no longer worth 200 dollars a year to us. We feel we'd be better off spending about 150 a year on the content we want. That would give me almost 1200 points a month to spend. That's right, 1200. At that rate I could buy a new powerset EVERY month and still have the same amount of paragon points left that VIPs have to spend on other junk. For me, trying new powersets from 1-50 is pretty much what I pay my sub for. If I don't get that like I used to under the current model, I'll likely unsubscribe. For me, three mission "signature arcs" aren't worth it. Incarnate content DEFINITELY isn't worth it. The market...not really worth it since I can now use some of that 1200 pts a month I was spending on the few sets I did want. I'll still come out speding less, and NCsoft will, sadly, come out losing 50 dollars a year in this situation.Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Not everything done now *must* be justified by precedent.
New model is new model.
Subscribers get more now than they did before. Period.
Subscribers are also faced with even more content on top of that which, if they want to have, must pay more for. Period.
That's the new model for subscribers. What was done in the past is the past.
The model of paying one price which gives access to everything is gone (not that it ever existed in the past considering Booster and Expansions). And now, Powersets will be part of the "extra stuff" which you either save your monthly Paragon Points for, or, you pay money for. It doesn't matter whether Powersets were 'always included' or not. Many of the new Powersets are not included now/anymore in the base subscriptions. Just the way it is.
One can say they don't like that. Fine. One *can't* say the Devs shouldn't do it this way because of the past precedent. That's just a non-starter. New model is new model.
They need to hear that as they adjust their new model, so that they don't end up losing money under it.