At least [b-one-] melee themed Defender
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-03-14 18:13 in Suggestions and Ideas
Uhm, Kinetics is melee oriented? Every power is ranged except for Inertial Reduction which is a poor mans Super Jump buff, and Repel which pushes opponents OUT of melee range so they can't attack you in melee.
Time Manipulation has 4 PBAoE's three of which (Temporal Mending, Farsight, & Chronoshift) are team buffs/heals, and one (Time's Juncture) is a debuff that does no damage.
Neither of those power sets are remotely melee oriented.
Now sure I have a lot of character concepts that would work better if I could ignore the Archetype restrictions and mix melee and ranged sets but I don't know if the devs will ever be willing to screw up the game balance to do it.
Edit: Far more likely to add a few more Power Pools that flesh out melee and ranged concepts, and easier to balance.
I went with Rad Blast for my melee Corruptor. Two AoEs usable from melee range, and a full single-target chain usable from melee range as well. The fact that the attacks are also usable from range was not an issue for me. I took Air Superiority for a bit more punchiness, and for a bit of the soft control that many melee sets get. I may be wrong but I think the animation for Cosmic Burst is the same as the one for Midnight Grasp, so using it from close range it really could be a melee attack.
I'm not disagreeing that some more melee options would be nice, just saying I was able to make it work for me with what we have.
Kinetic is melee in the sense that you usually need to stand relatively close to the whatever in order to get the benefits derived from using many of its' abilities. Whether or not that is a factor to you largely depends on whether or not you solo, or what your typical team composition looks like.
It's not really difficult to use a ranged attack in melee anyway. The only ranged attacks that tend to have difficulty when close to the target are cones as their arc lengths are so small that you usually wind up wasting the majority of the damage potential. ST ranged attacks and normal AOE's don't really have these problems, and don't really matter from how far away you fire them.
Quote:
This is true, but Fulcrum Shift, Transference, and Transfusion both hit things that are in melee with the target. Kinetics used at very close range is very, very common... much more common than Kinetics users that take Repel.
|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Uhm, Kinetics is melee oriented? Every power is ranged except for Inertial Reduction which is a poor mans Super Jump buff, and Repel which pushes opponents OUT of melee range so they can't attack you in melee.
|
,'&#
{}... .-
01234
"*_
?;!hgfauirebcew
Quote:
All ranged attacks can hit things that are in melee with the target. Kinetics are supposed to use Fulcrum Shift, Transference, and Transfusion to stay out of melee themselves while staying close enough to allies for them to receive the benefits of the buffs. Sure Kins can charge into melee but they'll die a lot more frequently.
|
Originally Posted by FlashToo
This is true, but Fulcrum Shift, Transference, and Transfusion both hit things that are in melee with the target. Kinetics used at very close range is very, very common... much more common than Kinetics users that take Repel.
|
Quote:
I speak not only from my observations of other kins, but my own experiences playing them in the way I find most enjoyable. I have two, one controller and one defender. I'm not suggesting "charging into melee," but with a set like Kinetics where you are frequently close to melee even if not in it, or a set like Time where you're often perfectly safe in melee, an Assault set would not be a bad thing at all. It works for Dominators, and they're squishy too when enemies aren't neutralized.
|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
All ranged attacks can hit things that are in melee with the target. Kinetics are supposed to use Fulcrum Shift, Transference, and Transfusion to stay out of melee themselves while staying close enough to allies for them to receive the benefits of the buffs. Sure Kins can charge into melee but they'll die a lot more frequently.
|
,'&#
{}... .-
01234
"*_
?;!hgfauirebcew
(to the OP) I see your point and I like it. My Time Defender is always in the thick of things...
No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded...
"The potato goes in the FRONT."
Quote:
Slight tangent, but I wish I had a taunt proc I could stick in Distortion Field. My time defender is nigh unkillable, and it would be fun to use him as a tank.
|
Originally Posted by Gr33n
(to the OP) I see your point and I like it. My Time Defender is always in the thick of things...
|
,'&#
{}... .-
01234
"*_
?;!hgfauirebcew
Quote:
"Charge" was probably the wrong term for me to use.
|
Originally Posted by FlashToo
I speak not only from my observations of other kins, but my own experiences playing them in the way I find most enjoyable. I have two, one controller and one defender. I'm not suggesting "charging into melee," but with a set like Kinetics where you are frequently close to melee even if not in it, or a set like Time where you're often perfectly safe in melee, an Assault set would not be a bad thing at all. It works for Dominators, and they're squishy too when enemies aren't neutralized.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Uhm, Kinetics is melee oriented? Every power is ranged except for Inertial Reduction which is a poor mans Super Jump buff, and Repel which pushes opponents OUT of melee range so they can't attack you in melee.
Time Manipulation has 4 PBAoE's three of which (Temporal Mending, Farsight, & Chronoshift) are team buffs/heals, and one (Time's Juncture) is a debuff that does no damage. Neither of those power sets are remotely melee oriented. Now sure I have a lot of character concepts that would work better if I could ignore the Archetype restrictions and mix melee and ranged sets but I don't know if the devs will ever be willing to screw up the game balance to do it. Edit: Far more likely to add a few more Power Pools that flesh out melee and ranged concepts, and easier to balance. |
As has been pointed out, Kinetic's best "benefits" are almost entirely melee oriented. The heal and end drain/boost both trigger off the enemy, which 90% of the time is around the melee oriented characters. Can it be fired from range? Sure. Is that helpful to you when teaming? Marginally, though it does help keep your team alive. Is that helpful when solo? Not at all. Fulcrum shift offers a small buff at range, but the true buff comes at melee range directly centered around the mob. Unless you're suggesting that the majority of kins DON'T try to get in to the mob when they fire it off then you're statement is simply missing the point. If you ARE suggesting that, I have no idea what kins you've been teaming with because I know it wasn't mine and I know it wasn't 99% of the kins I've ever teamed with.
And as for Time, one of it's best powers, Time's Juncture, is PBAoE, meaning you're basically very close to melee range if you want to use it effectively. Coupled with the fact that Time also has a location debuff and a PBAoE heal as well as a massive +def buff, it almost seems designed to be able to live in melee range.
They are both very VERY melee oriented. Unless you're suggesting that having to jump in and out of melee range to be able to utilize some of their best powers most effectively does't make them melee oriented.
As for game balance...
Giving scrappers and tankers and brutes Ranged attacks would upset game balanced because the vast majority of NPC attacks are melee, and they are already heavily survivable sets. They would suddenly become nigh unkillable "tankmages."
Are you suggesting that giving defenders, who already have a few sets that play largely in melee range, a set that is more melee oriented, would somehow do the same? Just to be clear, you're saying that giving them a set with LOWER range and FORCING them to get closer to enemies, meaning open to more of the enemeis attacks, would somehow upset game balance?
It sure as hell would be nice, thematically and fit two of the powersets very, very well. But it would hardly somehow imbalance the archetype. As you pointed out, defenders can already fight in melee if the want to. If the don't want to use most of their AoEs, or don't mind the fact that for some reason someone who can control kinetic energy never thought to use that power to make him a kick butt fist fighter.
Actually I would love for Defenders to be Proliferated some Domi Assault sets like Thorns. I know it'd break the AT remit slightly etc etc but it would be fun. Say Thorns and Earth to start with (both fairly melee orientated as well).
It'd also mean any Premium new Domi sets in the Market could be sold for both Domis and Defenders. I don't think I'd proliferate them to Corruptors though, just Defenders to start with to give Defenders some unique new options.
If I wanted to play a melee support character, I'd (simple version) just build my Def/Corr for it and use my attacks up close, or (Super-Unlikely version) wait until they release a new archetype with that configuration.
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
This game does allow you to use your ranged attacks in melee, so Defs and Corrs already have tons of melee sets.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
|
Quote:
...That's not quite the point, is it? You have it backwards. Yes, we can fire our blasts at point blank, presently, but that means that Defender secondaries that continue to follow this pattern mean that Defenders can't have attacks that only make sense in melee, like for instance punching someone in the face. Presently, we are only able to punch enemies in the gut, and then only if we take the Fighting pool.
|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
This game does allow you to use your ranged attacks in melee, so Defs and Corrs already have tons of melee sets.
|
,'&#
{}... .-
01234
"*_
?;!hgfauirebcew
I'd LOVE it if Defenders and Corruptors were given at least -1- melee themed and oriented assault set.
Lets face it, there are now at least TWO Defender Primaries that are heavily melee oriented: Kinetics and Time Manipulation. While Rad offers the most melee possibility, it still relies on almost entirely Ranged attacks. It's just difficult for both playstyle AND concept, sometimes. For example, I am currently running an ice/time defender, and while it actually plays OK in melee because of ice's short cast times and ice storm, it still means that ONE of its only two AoE powers requires me to jump way out of melee range to use, and was a pain in the butt conceptually to explain why this TIME controller is also shooting ice. I worked it out by having him create synthetic pillars of ice and flame to use offensively, but it was...a stretch. Just a couple of suggestions:
Staff fighting for Defenders: Port over Staff with the defender damage modifier in place and with a small reduction in the base damage of of the attacks, but a strong "form" effect. Swap out one of the melee AoE attacks for a ranged Targetted AoE attack which fires some sort of energy effect frin the staff (either focusing your "form" energy for a ranged attack or channeling your primary energy as a ranged attack.) This would make perfect sense for both magic oriented defenders who use wands/staffs for their spells and for defenders who are martial arts themed.
Earth/stone fighting for Defenders: Basically port a weaker form of Earth Assault over for Defenders. This would make a ton of sense for more "elemental" oriented defenders, or telekinetic oriented defenders paired with FF.
Kinetic Melee for defenders: Swap the Power Syphon +dmg aspect for a much stronger debuff. This makes a ton of sense for a TON of defender concepts (kinetics, time, etc.)
Essentially, this would be a way to use existing powers, rebalanced to fit defenders, for a new option for defenders and corruptors to better match some of the more melee oriented healing/buffing sets out there.
They still would have low HP, lower damage, etc. but sets like kinetics and time wouldn't have to juggle jumping around in and out of melee range to maximize the impact that they can have, and so many more straight forward concepts could be created. I'm not even asking for them all...but please...PLEASE give us one truly melee designed defender primary.