mauk2

(Wipes away a manly tear.)

I see we have another convert to the overwhelming power of the fire tanker.

Welcome! The open bar serving flaming jet fuel is over this way.....

Ok....

I turned on spiritual and accolades, tossed in reactive, assumed the +rech was perma in a farming situation.

+311 rech

Footstomp recharges in 4 seconds, burn in 5, ball lightning in 6.4, fences in 4.14. You literally can't fire them all.

Yes, it has to eat candy like mad, but holy MOLY.

I think..... You win.

(shrug)

Your opinions are your own.




As the proud owner of a tooled-up inv/ax, you better believe it's not.

However: The tank is just incredible overkill. The brute has waaaay more durability than anything needs for anything in the game. I've seen multiple scrapper builds herd the Patrons and then tank LR with team buffs, and scrappers are not nearly as tough as brutes, never mind tanks.

Should the Dev's have harder content to make tanks more attractive? I'd call that a yes, IF the rewards for said content were worth it.


You need to turn on accolades and incarnate.

But even if it isn't, a few seconds gap has never been an issue for me.


BEAST is the word ya want


Because I played one to 45, and the orange numbers floating off things heads in Real Play were about the same as the ones floating up when my scrapper was doin' it?


Well, not really. Focus/followup/spin is pretty darn seamless. I have the lowby filler attack for times when I'm slowed or something. Fitting in another slow-animating AOE is not something I've ever gotten much use out of.

Also, it's prolly more fair to compare this build against scrappers than tanks: It does roughly equal to scrapper damages but is way, WAY more durable. It's 500 hp above scrapper cap and has access to LOTS more resists. Unless the Dev's start putting in much nastier baddies, it's 'tough enough.'

1) Seriously, that toon does not need any more mitigation. In a crowd it'll be up around incarnate defense caps, it has enough DDR and resists to take the edge off any hits, Unstoppable hard caps it vs the universe and can be up half the time and with the regen incarnate power is actually not so bad, it has 30+ hp/sec passive +regen, etc, etc, etc.

2) Running focus, followup, spin is pretty much seamless, where you gonna stick another attack? Yes, eviscerate is big damage, but so is spin and spin doesn't require aiming. Shockwave is anathema to this build: You WANT them close, to fuel invincibility and evaporate in the spin-velope. Focus is a ranged attack to draw in moar victims and provides a smidgeon of knockdown to serve as more mitigation against things like Dark Ring Mistresses.

Do other things do more damage? Sure, but nothing else does that damage and has that amount of toughness.

....

Dammit, now I wanna level that toon out. Grrr.....

I ain't gotta show you nuttin, bunkie.

But, ehn, whatever.

I have a claw/inv scrapper i made the first week the game was out. LOVE that toon. A while back, I started up a claw/inv brute, to see if the hype was real. I got the brute to 45 and lost interest: It was already obvious how much beefier the brute was, and the damage was absolutely there.

I put together a build, if I ever decide to brush the rust off the brute I'll put this on it:




Man, what a monster.

I make no claims this is the best damages out there, and I care not a fig about beating up lol pylons. But this toon as presented is a beast, tanker tough and scrapper damage. If I wanted to purple it up and tinker a bit with slot optimization, I'm sure it could be made considerably 'better', but I don't terribly care.

Focus, followup, spin, it's all ya need.

Claws/inv on a brute is a BEAST.

A heavily tooled up fire/fire tank. It's somethin'.

Heh.

Claws/inv on a brute is SICK.

....

Long ago, I did an ITF with an old SS/wp brute. It had maybe...half a build on it? Four or five sets.

This was long before incarnates, etc.

I was running with a crew of fellows I used to hang with, they never did anything unless they had three cold/sonics. On this particular run, they also brought a fire/kin and some lowbies.

In the last battle I was hitting Rommy for 2049 points with each knockout blow. It's still the hardest I've ever hit anything. Ahhh, memories.

If the numbers matter that much to you, brutes are better. Sorry.

Also, everybody knows how broken controllers are. The Dev's seem to be cool with it, to the point that they're removing controllers from the available archetypes for free players.

The freebies only get to play the rest of us second class citizens, after all.

Yeah, kind of like defenders also got a 30 percent boost to damage while solo. And they lost no mitigation while doing so.

I'm noting a trend here.

I think tankers would be just fine if they got the very same buff to damage Defenders did (+30 percent solo, scaling down) and would still be nowhere near being overpowered in any way shape or form.


Yeah, and this is weird.

Despite Johnny's fixation on the broken-ness inside melee (although he misses completely the sorry state of stalkers in the equation), we ALL know what's really broken in the game, and that is infinite stacking of buffs and debuffs.

It's 100 percent 'City of Debuffs', and that's a fact.

It is telling that the Dev's big move to boost Tankers (for which we are very grateful, thank's Devs!) was to give tanks a juicy inherent debuff.

It seems that debuffs are some sort of a sacred cow to the Dev team, and I frankly don't understand it.

I am puzzled. (Assumes puzzled pose.)

.....You always put up the most INTERESTING toys.


Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.942
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Stone Armor
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(3), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(3), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Jab -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(11), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(23), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(27), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 2: Focused Senses -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(5), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(7), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 4: Agile -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(9), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(9), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(11)
Level 6: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Dodge -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(13), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(15), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(15)
Level 10: Haymaker -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(23), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(25), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(27), Zinger-Dam%(40)
Level 12: Evasion -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(17), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(17), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(19)
Level 14: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(29), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(29), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 18: Lucky -- GftotA-Def(A), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(19), GftotA-Def/Rchg(21), GftotA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 20: Weave -- GftotA-Def/EndRdx(A), GftotA-EndRdx/Rchg(31), GftotA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31), GftotA-Run+(43)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- ULeap-EndRdx(A), ULeap-Jump(43), ULeap-Stlth(43), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(46)
Level 26: Quickness -- Run-I(A)
Level 28: Knockout Blow -- Hectmb-Dam%(A), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(34), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(34), T'Death-Dam%(36)
Level 30: Rage -- GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(36), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(45), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(45), AdjTgt-Rchg(45), AdjTgt-EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 32: Elude -- SW-ResDam/Re TP(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(33), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(46)
Level 35: Super Jump -- Winter-ResSlow(A)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Armgdn-Dam%(A), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(39), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(40), Zinger-Dam%(40)
Level 41: Maneuvers -- GftotA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(A), GftotA-Def/EndRdx(42), GftotA-EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 44: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt/Rng(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(48), Zinger-Taunt/Rng(48), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg(48), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(50), Zinger-Dam%(50)
Level 49: Physical Perfection -- RgnTis-Regen+(A), P'Shift-End%(50)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(36), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(37), Mrcl-Rcvry+(42)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(37)



HEE!

erm.....

While I hesitate to point this out, Tankers were recently given a 20 percent buff to their offense and at the same time, had their hit points increased.

Thus, their mitigation was improved, while their offense was also improved at the same time.

So... I don't get where you think tanks need to have their defenses lowered to get more damages. I mean, the Dev's kinda just did the exact opposite.

...just sayin'.

Hmmm.

I have been advocating for a while to raise tanker resist caps by 3 percent, to 93. This would serve, in my humble opinion, to differentiate tanker survivability 'enough' to make the AT clearly the better choice in some situations, which is really all most folks want, I believe.

This idea.... I've punted this notion around a bit, and the main down-side, as far as I can tell, is that it can slaughter lowby tanks if not done gently.

IF the Devs were to do this, I would suggest they raise tankers aggro caps by 5 every ten levels. Thus, 1-10, 17; 11-20, 22; 21-30, 27; 31-40, 32; 41-50, 37.

This would, in my mind, COMPLETELY change how Tankers are viewed, while absolutely not being a return to the bad old days of zone-herding.

Also, as far as people whining about tankers being able to hold too much aggro, how much aggro can a MM hold? Or any pet class? Am I incorrect in thinking it is a full 17 baddies per pet?

If I am correct, then a MM can take aggro on what, 85 bad guys in theory? (boggle)

Maybe I am wrong here....

I see a lot of tanks, too.

That's because, tanks are cool, and scrappers got STYLE.

All brutes have is SMASH.

(shrug)

So what?

The team benefits from hueg broot SMASH just as much (way more) than they do from tanker bruising, becuz in a team, I promise you, there are waaaay more debuffs flying than the tank's tier 1 itch-scratcher.

I'm addressing performance envelopes.

Because thats where these idiotic numbers arguments always wind up.

Brutes have nearly equal (can be better, wanna look hard at fire?) damage to scraps and stalkers, and also get waaaay more hitpoints AND have 90 percent resist caps.

If you care about that crap, BRUTES ARE BETTER.

You can wriggle all you want, the facts are plain.

However, I can't really stand brutes. I play mostly scraps and tanks.

Why?

Ehn, I guess I'm just dumb.

The first part of this is simple: Any toon with an aggroing AOE, good defenses, and a handy corner.

Period.

The tricky part comes in KEEPING aggro.

In my experience, a claws/inv scrapper or a claws/inv brute is nearly ideal. Taunt aura, huge defenses, huge hitpoints, good mobility for cornering, and a ranged attack to draw in wanderers.

Spines/inv is right there too.

However, in the current game, with a strong team, 'tanking' is really more about 'super heavy scouting.' If I'm on a good team, I generally try to play 'a spawn ahead.'

I run forward, engage with taunt aura/damage aura/AOE, move to corner, hit a few bosses.

The first attack from somebody else that hits the spawn is my signal to move along, my job is done, now it's the squishies problem.

Any toon that is beefy enough to aggressively play forward a spawn (or two if there's somebody who knows how to offtank) can 'tank' well enough.

Hey, I remember that arc!

Very historical, the bad guys are VERY tough but cool, all in all an excellent story.

I should run that again on one of my 'good' toons some day.

...But I like having a full ST and a full AOE attack chain on my toons.

Also, the only thing I'd swap out for would be a travel power... Yeah, I do like travel powers, so I'd likely drop an attack and go for 'thickening up' the build a trifle.

However, that kitbashed build has perma dp, perma hasten, softcapped S/L/E/N, and all kinds of other goodies, including Real Damage. So yeah, I'm looking real hard at re-rolling my tank.

...yeaaaaah.

This is likely be my new main....

Add in the T4 Spritual Radial for the bonus +rech, +heal, +jump, and +stun.

MA/EA has...a LOT of powerful synergies. That is going to be a simply ridiculous amount of stun.

(adds up on fingers)

Is that 470 percent base damage? Scrapper cap is 500 percent....

I'd have just worked it out for max and gotten into a red-eatin' frame of mind. Or take assault.

So, purples in both those, plus a second proc for +dam in each? Toss in a six slotted Obi in shield charge, and pile on +rech +def until your arms get tired....

With dual procs and a crit, we're hovering around 2500 for a KOB crit. (!!)

Fire armor will be much, MUCH, higher....

I dunno about missing anything.

Here's the fire tank I play on live, exactly as I dumped it out using the Titan tool. The only incarnate that doesn't show up is barrier. I offer this as an example only: Build and play as you like.



Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.94
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Feuer Sturm: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Fire Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(3), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(3), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(5), EndRdx-I(5)
Level 1: Scorch -- KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(9), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Blazing Aura -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(11), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(11), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(13), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 4: Combustion -- M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(A), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(15), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(17), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(19), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(19)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(21), Ksmt-ToHit+(21)
Level 8: Fire Sword -- Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(23), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(23), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(25), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(25), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27)
Level 10: Healing Flames -- Numna-Heal/Rchg(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(27), Numna-Heal(29), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(29), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Aegis-ResDam(31)
Level 12: Plasma Shield -- EndRdx-I(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(31), S'fstPrt-ResKB(33), ResDam-I(33)
Level 14: Consume -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 16: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 18: Burn -- Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(34), Oblit-Dmg(34), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(34), Oblit-%Dam(36)
Level 20: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(36), RctvArm-ResDam(36), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(37)
Level 24: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(37), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(39)
Level 26: Fiery Embrace -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 28: Fire Sword Circle -- Oblit-Acc/Rchg(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Oblit-Dmg(40), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(40), Oblit-%Dam(40)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(42), LkGmblr-EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 32: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 35: Taunt -- Mocking-Rchg(A), Mocking-Taunt(43), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(43), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(43), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(45)
Level 38: Greater Fire Sword -- Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(45), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(45), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(46), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(48), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(48)
Level 47: Temperature Protection -- GA-3defTpProc(A)
Level 49: Build Up -- Rec'dRet-ToHit(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(50)
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
Level 50: Void Radial Final Judgement
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface
Level 50: Seers Total Radial Improved Ally
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(48)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(50), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(50)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 4: Ninja Run



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