hewhorocks

Its hard because of two minds to work the Fear tank thing. You want to be able to fear lts consistantly but you also need to be able to take a punch. Maybe you cant do both?

I think the concern is that Controllers get added utility from the debuffs, but I in general agree. I think even accounting for concepts (which sometimes preclude bows) there are a lot fewer Trick Archery toons than most other buff/debuff sets.

There is the rub. Leveling a TA/anything can be a painfully slow process unless you have a core of regular experienced players to team with.

Binds annoucing "I dont heal but I do this.." "This arrow doesnt aggro" "This will boost your attacks if they are kept in the field." are essential when teaming with random Pugs.

TA/ has its difficulties not the least of which is that your powers dont put up big green numbers, and other than OSA dont require other players to recognise your contributions. I often liken playing my TA/ Archery def in pick up groups to teaching the elderly how to program their VCRs.

I dont understand. No Ice Storm/ Blizzard? This hurts my head.

Hmm. Rad is ok. I think my playstyle works better with Ice. Though Sonic can in some instances make seemingly impossible obstacles appear simple. Intresting that you rarely see arguments claiming that Rad is the best blaster set.

Here is what i was thinking. Is it sturdy enough? Will end be too much of an issue?Improvements anyone?

So we are agreed on this then: "Buff TA for Defenders!?"

So I've been working on a concept tank (Dark Armor/ Super Strength) and will be trying to work with a Invoke Panic/ Cloak of fear combination. Beyond this I would like it to be at least effective as a primary tank on a full TF team.

Thinking that end use will require energy mastery. Anyone got a build along those lines they could share their experience on?

I love my TA Defender but as a concept. Everyonce in a while I remember her come back and run a mission or tow then then say, oh yeah thats why I dont play her. Purpled up she marginally effective and my friends nicknamed her "Deadweight."

It seems she works best running with large groups of "meh" players. Good players dont need/ notice her debuffs enough to speed up defeat rate, poor players arent helped enough by her.

No taunt on scrappers. Though I would opine that if you need a unique and to 3 slot a power with accuracy for it to hold its status as the superior power then you may really be making Clouded's point. To me Dark Armor builds always seems pressed for slots, I hadn’t considered it though this may be a reason why.

I dont think his point isnt that the power's short-comings cant be mitigated but that the power needs added considerations when planning builds to be effective where a auto hit power would not. Its the combination of both high end cost and a "to hit check" (and yes the range) that are added in which make it a challenging power to use effectively.

As for DA's end use in general, running the oil refinery is a hassle. You lose the effectiveness (lol) of you self res because it takes 5 mins to re-toggle! I wouldn’t be opposed to having one or more of the toggles converted to an inherent. Heck make the mez resist an inherent "the exposure to the dark forces has hardened you mind against sleep, fear, yada yada." Would still have the KB hole and would free up on spot on your tray. Maybe those spine/dark scrappers would rejoice at only running 10 toggles and DA get a minor end break.

For Dr. Strange (Im a huge fan) I think Controller Mind, Illusion or grav could all work. Secondary would likely be FF, storm or rad. Epic probably Psi. (Youd be missing mystic bolts of bedevilment but the psi-dart would work) Or you could take primal forces for the bolt.

Liberal use of Pools would be required.

Funny thing is though you could likely build in game a stronger "power wise" character than what Doctor strange has exibited. (Much of his serious powers seem more like mission completion objectives.)

As far as Dr. Fate? I could pick him out of a line up but dont know him nearly as well.

Its a fun concept. I'm willing to wager its slightly more popular in RP populations than the general population were it is more popular than in the Min/maxers. I like the visuals of the set by and large. I like the fact its not a "heal me" or a "Speed boost me" set.

I would like the set a little more with a quiver option (belt or back.) Still I think a little boost around the edges for defenders especially would cause warm fuzzies all around the city.

Well TA passes as a defender by default not really performance. Still it seems even its supporters admit that it could use a little love. Not asking to make it into the new FOTM just make it not the red-headed stepchild of defender sets.

For Defenders pick the very best secondary for TA. Its a matter of opinion but from there then ask yourself assuming this secondary rank the primaries in terms of effectiveness. Is TA in your top 3? Top 5?

TA for defenders needs help, the power numbers seem to show this, the popularity of the set seems to show this, and the number of stalled out deleted toons seem to show this. Can a brother get a witness?

Least Fun : Gale? Applying Speed Boost?

Most fun: Shield charge? Lightning Rod?

The -Regen though is something that really helps in a limited number of situations. This is what TA as a primary is suffering from. Lots of powers with marginal abilities and longish recharge times.

In fights with AV's and GM's A TA defender has a res debuff and a to hit debuff. Its on an opponent who will be hanging out for a while. Where TA falls noticeably short (again for defenders) is not in this scenario but on missions where the life expectancy of the mobs is less than the recharge time of the debuffing arrows.

AM is a great buff and a competent team can get through many mobs in one application. With TA there is no "carry over" from one mob to the next. Thats why Debuffs need significantly faster recharges than buffs on the other end of the equation. What happens to the TA is that the more competent the team is the less effective the debuffs are. Because a good team is on to the next mob before the timers reset, Trick arrow has a lot of “wasted” effect even with ideal placement. Worse, the TA defender doesnt provide much in mitigation. TA has a wide selection of mediocre tools with a net effect of being able to contribute to mediocre teams. TA (again as a primary) doesnt have the tools to help poor teams overcome and cant use its tools consistently (fast) enough to help the good ones be better.

While some of this problem is inherent in the nature of Debuffs, recharge times and the gross effect of the powers could be modified to allow Trick Arrow to be a primary that’s not only distinctive in appearance but effective in application.

Everything else considered, Go carts are fun as long as race cars aren’t an option.

I think that the -Regen component idea may add some utility to the set (and make it TA defenders less a social outcast) but I still believe that is not quite the issue with the set. For TA to provide a significant contribution to a typical team it generally needs to unleash most of its resources every mob. The problem is that due to recharge times the typical archer cant. If the powers for a TA defender had more significant debuffs then PGA, DA, AA could be staggered every other mob but as their individual effects are not as significant in isolation each power warrants being used on any mob that presents a threat.

The reasonable options for buffing TA Defenders would be either reduce the recharge times or raise the effectiveness of the Debuffs. I understand that game balance issues may prevent raising much of the effectiveness. When TA’s get all their powers in on a single mob the array of debuffs is impressive. Dark, Cold, and Rad all have other tasks to do so their net debuffing has to packed into a few powers. But there should be some pay off for TA to forgo all the extra functionality those other sets offer. Currently a TA defender can make every 4th or 5th mob a done deal. With PGA, DA, AA, Flash, OSA and Emp arrow. This however is not equal to making 100% of the mobs 20% ~25% easier which is what many of the more diverse sets do in their primaries.

Dispari, TAKE A BOW!

/em golf clap

Thats the point I've been struggling to make. As a defender primary, the debuffs are out performed by powers from other primaries that offer more diverse functionalality. Granted these powers are some of the gems of those other primaries but it seems that TA is specializing soley in Debuff without being the shinning star of (or even a great) Debuffing set(s).

Sure when TA pours on every one of its powers into a mob its an impresive array of effects but recharge times being what they are....

One might argue that TA defenders need to rely more heavily on their secondary for additional effects than other sets in order to be effective.

Im not sure that TA increases "arrest speed" more than a rad, who also buffs and has quality of life buffs, or Cold who has a wide array of buffs. One might even make an argument for Dark (or Kin increasing speed faster and given resists In many cases Debuff needs to have superior values than buffs for an equal effect on "Arrest speed")

It seems to me that the three methods of effective defending are weakening the opposition, increasing your teams effectiveness, and mitigation of incoming damage/effects. The issue with TA is that it focuses on just one aspect of defending and it doesnt seem to address this task any better than sets which address de-buffing in addition to other methods of defending.

Im not offering a solution though I think the set needs some tweaking not a major overhaul. I love the concept of the set but it captures a little too much of the "I'm not really a superhero" attitude for set parity. But maybe that WAI, I hope not.

So for travel power purposes swift or hurdle which will get you around better with NR? Sprint doesn’t give a bonus to jump speed IIRC. Does hurdle help jump speed better than swift helps run speed? If it’s a wash it would seem that hurdle would be better simple for the additional vertical movement.

The issue with Trick Arrow isn’t that it cant be played well in groups or that it doesn’t help teams, its that nothing it does do cant be done better by other more versatile primaries. Strictly speaking, specialization balances out utility. However with Trick Arrow it doesn’t seem to debuff as well as Radiation, or Dark, or Cold for that matter. So does it make up for it in other areas? If so I dont see it. Oil slick (bugs and all) and EMP arrow are effective 8/9’s tier powers and seem at least on par with the 8/9’s from the other sets.

However in powers 1-7 Trick arrow offers less utility than the other Control/debuff sets.
The options (from a mechanics point of view) seems to be debuff/control with shields, Debuff/control with heals/rez. Debuff/contol with heal, rez and buff; or Slightly Sub par debuff/contol with OSA.

The argument isn’t that TA cant be made to be effective, its that for the first 35 levels for a defender there appears to be nothing that TA does better than the other primaries and no real advantage in versatilityto make up for it. I love my TA/A defender. I played her to 50 on two servers but simply put Rad, Dark and Cold defenders appear to bring more to the table in terms of utility, functionality and effectiveness.

Maybe 99% of the players are playing with TA defenders wrong. If that’s the case and TA is a primary that only elite players can make blossom then let it be known through out Paragon. TA as a primary doesn’t currently appear as effective as other options and in a game that has modified power sets repeatedly over the years in the name of “Game Balance,” it seem time for the red-names to take a closer look at how TA is perceived, used, and plays out in the game.

Not Cool.....Cold!

Still the graphics mess with 2 powers... The sheilds. You could play cold like a Trick arrow defender without the sheilds and still be pretty effective. The sheilds are nice.....real nice but so is all the Debuff, slow, -regen, end recovery.