gec72
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Quote:After posting I threw up a "reduced merit roll cost for lower level characters" idea in the suggestions forum to help with the redside issue (thinking it might offset the urge to hoard merits a *bit*), but it's not really going over well*.Originally Posted by BlkFalcon
I thought about something like this, where the devs could adjust the drop rates based on the number of players. Determine a baseline, then adjust periodically when the actual rates varies.
The thing I struggle with redside is finding sets below level 50. Players are spending less time in the mid-levels (my perception.) In addition, players are using AE for leveling rather than a mission, skewing drop rates.
As to the suggestion of having a store with everything, not an idea I can support.
* the prevailing sentiment is basically that as a player, you already have the ability to roll more recipes at lower levels by going the Midlevel Crisis route (one offered that folks would start turning off XP and use that as an exploit...with the reduction of level 50 recipes as a consequence) -
Quote:Fair enough. Out of curiosity though, is this because the supposed problem - an inadequate supply of lower-level recipes from merit rolls - doesn't need fixing, or because the approach of the fix itself is flawed?Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
/unsigned. there is no need to do anything to the random rolls.
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Quote:True, that was part of why they were put in. From my standpoint though, there were at least two other big reasons: 1) to attempt to fine-tune rewards for TF by effort (Katie != Dr. Q) and 2) to reward other non-TF tasks (story arcs). As a soloist, that last one was HUGELY appreciated.Originally Posted by Steampunkette
This kinda negates the big reason they -gave- us Merits rather than just random rolls: To let people pick their recipes.
There was a lot of bluster on the forums about finding the wrong recipe or farming a TF for 6 straight hours without getting either a recipe the character could use -or- a recipe worth half a darn on the market. Devs put in Merits and players started saving them up for the really rare recipes.
This is true. Of course, as it is now there is at least one group (well, two, one for each side) devoted to doing exactly this...Quote:Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Having lower level characters spend less on random rolls won't help that problem. Instead you'll get a bunch of people who cap their XP at 35 or so, then run low-level task forces in merit-farms for rolls on the low-end of some of the better sets on the market (30-50 sets are (generally) the best)
For EXACTLY that reason. I'd also argue that for a Level 32 character, there is an enormous difference between a level 35 IO and a level 50 IO.Quote:Originally Posted by Steampunkette
There isn't a whole lot of difference between a level 35 Def/End/Rech IO and a level 50 Def/End/Rech IO.
So you'd mostly see level 35 recipe farmers and a decline in some of the higher end recipes hitting the market, especially at the appropriate levels.
-Rachel- -
This is a pretty straight-forward idea (and again, apologies if it's already been suggested) to go along with my previous idea on recrafting IO to change their levels to help even out the level spread of IO.
Make it cheaper for lower level characters to roll a random recipe.
More people might be inclined to roll their merits as they get them rather than saving them for level 50 (which they could still do if they chose to).
Could be even something as simple as:
Level 1-20: 10 merits/random roll
Level 21-40: 15 merits/random roll
Level 41-50: 20 merits/random roll
Base this not on recipe level (like tickets) but by character level (natural...don't want people going to Oroboros before rolling). Give the lower level toons a little more purchasing power, w/o bumping the merits given out for early arcs (which can be exploited by higher toons). -
Quote:I'd love to see a graph that plotted merits/hour and inf/hour on 50s. Or rather many plots spread across dates. Is more inf coming into the system compared to merits than before, especially since the difficulty slider changes? I know for my playstyle it's felt easier to generate inf than merits; up the number of mobs, increase inf and chance for purples but take more time to complete missions.Originally Posted by SwellGuy
So if you think about the merits/hour rates the devs have stated and how much influence/infamy a level 50 character can generate there is actually a base inf cost compared to merits.
The variance in prices you see beyond that would be addressed by demand on those drops.
It's probably a pipe-dream, but I wonder if some set of equations should serve as a balance between influence, merits, drops, number of characters. Each character over the course of a career can be expected to slot X number of IO; to generate this many, you'll need X * Y mob drops; Z/X of these IO will be created via merits (portion of which will be rolled, portion bought)...so Q merits need to be generated per character to sustain, etc. Set a number of hours, mob kills, whatever where a build can be expected to be "complete" (at 50? 100 hours of being 50?). Maybe something to even out production by level.
If something changes to throw the equilibrium out-of-whack, react (slow down generation of inf, adjust merits to account for extra inf). Is production skewed to 50 because of holding out on rolls, or an aging of the character population (is 85% of red-side now at lvl 50 and only generating lvl 50 recipes)? Maybe merit rolls should be cheaper for lower-level characters (similar to how tickets work, but based on the character level rather than recipe level). Maybe drop rates for 50s should be lower than at 25.
(ok, enough rambling for now) -
Quote:I wouldn't mind seeing the common IO:set IO ratio tweaked a little in favor of set IO. I don't know the rate, but I get many, many more common IO recipes - all of which are sold, bringing more inf into the system (and at 50, those vendor for a good chunk).Originally Posted by Katie V
You were probably getting drops at the normal rate of about one recipe and five salvage per mission.
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Quote:I think Arcana also made a point...somewhere about the Auto Turrets playing by different rules. They do seem to be especially pesky.Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
Malta have decent +ToHit don't they? I guess you could consider that a defense debuff
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Anecdotal data point that I didn't see listed in the original post: Sovereign Right: Accuracy/Endurance. I rolled one of these (38) recently, and boy do sales for it red-side look sparse (any level).
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Don't forget Longbow - I believe their assault rifle attacks have -Defense. I'm pretty sure they've gotten to my brute a number of times (not helped by the -Resistance from the Nullifiers, either).
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Quote:I'm thinking kind of like martial arts and black belts. Start as a 1st degree Incarnate (1D50?) work your way up to 10th degree.Originally Posted by Flarecrow
I'm thinking that this is not exactly a level bump more like "Okay, I'm lvl 50, and My incarnate abilities are at level 3. I'm the same level as all the other 50's out there, I just have a few more abilities/perks/slots/whatever it gets us."
So, I imagine, Once you hit lvl 50, Incarnate Level 2, it will become "Level 2 Incarnate Tanker LFT" Incarnate being the nod that you've hit 50 and moved on.
Just my 2 inf. -
My WM/Shield surpassed 1B last night, and is worth more than that as he's also holding onto one each of Hecatomb, Soulbound Allegiance, Armageddon and Respec recipes.
No, it's not a lot compared to some out there and I'd still have a ton of work to do if I wanted to purple him out. But his build is nearly finished (last two Obliterations came in on inexpensive bids last night) but for pieces here and there (mainly LoTG, so I'll have to spend some of the inf). His inf will just make it that easier to outfit my Widow, then my Bane, then whoever's next. -
I can't answer that, but is the board even purged anymore now that it's been transitioned to vBulletin?
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Quote:Not pistols, but apparently there were some rifle techniques taught in the past:Originally Posted by flashrains
Pistol Assault.
Not bloody likely, but I think it could be super awesome. The melee attacks could be a pistol-whip for the lower damage one... for the higher-damage one, I'm picturing shooting them point blank, something akin to Mind Probe from the psionic assault set, only with a gun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buttstroke
At that point though I wonder what really distinguishes that from a polearm.Quote:The buttstroke or butt-stroking, i.e., striking someone with the buttstock of a rifle,[1] is a common case of the use of a firearm as a blunt weapon. Buttstroke is among the major offensive techniques with the rifle and bayonet. [2]
The 1918 US Navy Landing-force Manual describes the following techniques of buttstroking:[3]
* Buttstroke I - Upward swing: Swing the butt up at the opponent's crotch, ribs, forearm, etc.,-using a half-arm blow or advancing the rear foot. Buttstroke I is essentially a half-arm blow from the shoulder, keeping the elbow rigid, and it can therefore be successfully employed only when the right hand is grasping the rifle at the small of the stock.
* Buttstroke II - Forward strike: If the opponent jumps back so that the first butt stroke misses, the rifle will come into a horizontal position over the left shoulder, butt leading; the attacker will then step in with the rear foot and dash the butt into his opponent's face.
* Buttstroke III - Downward cut: If the opponent retires still farther out of distance, the attacker again closes up and slashes his bayonet down on his opponent's head or neck.
* Buttstroke IV - Side blow: If a thrust has been made at an opponent and parried, the butt can be effectively used by stepping in with the rear foot swinging the rifle to the left and rear, so that the butt leads and is in front of the right forearm. Then dash the butt into the opponent's face, or against the side of his head or jaw. When the opponent is out of distance, butt stroke III can again be used. In individual fighting, the butt can also be used horizontally against the opponent's ribs, forearm, etc. This method is impossible in trench fighting or in an attack, owing to the horizontal sweep of the bayonet to the attacker's left.
The butt must not be employed when it is possible to use the bayonet effectively. The buttstrike methods will usually only temporarily disable an enemy, who must be killed with the bayonet.[3] -
Quote:Which technically...makes it not an option.Originally Posted by macskull
Unless the system forces you to take a random roll and the merits it would've granted (minus 20 for the roll), you don't have this option.
What we're discussing here is forcing the player to act in the best interests of the market rather than in their own best interests (putting off rolling until 50, saving for a specific reward). Either way there are going to be complaints; in one case that there's an undersupplied market, the other that random rolls always result in undesirable recipes ("I NEVER get a LoTG!!").
What I still don't get are players who just don't use their merits. Maybe if merits earned that exceed the cap auto-roll recipes.
(I for one am still very happy that merits are awarded for arc content - otherwise I'd have no Miracles, no Numinas, etc.) -
Related to super sight, what I've thought would be neat is the ability to see through walls (for a time there seemed to be a graphical glitch which would to this for a split second). Who's behind that door? Ahh, a lt. and some buddies. I can see him, so I can have him targeted for when I open the door.
That and the ability to walk through walls. Though really I don't know how that could even be implemented...but the thought is interesting. -
Quote:There was some talk of this in the other thread. I don't think it's a bad idea if salvage isn't that sparse. Probably makes more sense from a bookkeeping standpoint too. But you're right for some recipes it just wouldn't be worth it (unless you were looking for a very specific build). Dark Watcher's Despair: To Hit Debuff, for example. It's not rare at all, yet it requires a Prophesy to craft (tangent: I need like five Prophesies right now. 80+ rare salvage in the base, and no Prophecy). Bad enough burning one to craft it in the first place...but two?Originally Posted by Aggelakis
I think it should be (inf + [desired level's salvage requirements]), instead of (inf + [one piece of salvage]).
So, I have a level 37 LotG +Rech. I craft it, and later on decide I want it in my exemplar build, which is optimized for level 33. So I can drop my recipe by four levels for 4 million inf, Demonic Blood Sample, Circuit Board, Mutant DNA Strand, Mu Vestment, and Deific Weapon.
While it's more to craft the item than it would be, it's far FAR cheaper than it would be to ticket, merit, or market purchase. (Plus much less time involved, which is a plus for impatient people.) And requiring all of the salvage required to craft it at that level makes more sense than requiring one random salvage, which is what your OP sounds like.
Of course, there are some recipes that it will make more sense to buy the new version of instead of recraft (I'm looking at you, mez/snipe recipes).
Otherwise, great suggestion.
Absolutely. Only IO that you have freed up in your tray. If it's important enough to burn respecs, you could always go that route.Quote:Originally Posted by LISAR
As long as it was only available on unslotted IOs this would be awesome. -
Quote:I was pretty much the same until recently. A dozen or so 50s, the oldest holding just a few million and the newest maybe a little over 100M. My brute was rolling along in the late 40s and had less than 40M. This was late Feb.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Only a single one of these has more than 100 million, and that's the second 50 Blaster because I sold either a unique heal recipe or a purple something, and I think she had something like 101 million or 110 million. Nowhere near 200, at any rate. I also have a fair few characters in their 40s, including a Blaster I absolutely, positively made AFTER inventions. Sitting at 46 now, she has... I don't remember. Somewhere between 40 and 80 million, around 20 of which are going to disappear as soon as she hits 50. I have no patience for playing the market, so chances are I'll buy expensive ready-made enhancements or make them myself, and at half a million per Invention AND half a million per recipe, 80-ish slots are going to run for a lot.
I don't know how people are making BILLIONS and, frankly, I don't care. I'm never going to need that much. But, again, IT IS NOT A SAFE BET to assume that people are going to have hundreds of millions on every one of their 50s, because I'm living testament that that is simply not true.
I got the brute to 50 and just decided to play him for a while, which typically isn't what I do when reaching 50. Just mowing through mobs during Double XP raked in the inf; when that ended I kept playing and kept crafting and selling set IO (and a purple here and there). No flipping involved. Right now I'm sitting on 760M, and it wasn't hard at all. Was it aided by Double XP? Certainly. Was it aided by AE exploiters throwing around inf on the market? Mmm, likely. But it only served to speed up the process a little. -
Quote:Only for IOs. The Yin SOs and Hydras would still be subject to whatever combining rules already govern them.Originally Posted by Zamuel
This sounds like a good way to make IOs available at more levels than they are on the market. Would this soley be for IOs or would specialized enhancements like those in Mr Yin's store and the Hydra Origin enhancements be eligible?
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I've posted a copy of the idea in the Suggestions forum (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=214158), along with the q/a post with peterpeter's questions.
Thanks all - hopefully this goes over well there too. -
These were some questions that popped up in the other thread.
Quote:I'd say no. I wouldn't want folks buying cheap unwanted 50s, downgrading them to extract Inf, then discarding them. I think this is just something you're willing to pay for for the utility - be it for optimizing level for exemplaring, or buying a higher level and downgrading it so you can use it earlier (say, buy a 40, downgrade to 35 to use on a 32).I like it. Having so many recipes at 50 and so few at 30 is a problem. I wonder how some of the details would work.
Should it cost money to lower the level of an IO, or should you earn money as the level goes down, like you're extracting value?
Yes - absolutely bound to their existing level ranges.Quote:What about enhancements that only exist within a certain level range? I assume they would still be bound by those levels.
I'd say this should just be for unslotted enhancements. If you got a drop a few levels ago and didn't get around to crafting it (or just had no room to slot it), you might want to boost it a few levels. But if it's something already slotted, you need to free it up using a respec in order to modify it.Quote:Would people buy recipes in the 30's and then upgrade them as they leveled? If so, what effect would that have? Fewer transactions on the market? Less inf but more recipes? I'm not sure.
That's a possibility. I do think salvage should be involved somehow.Quote:It might make sense that, to shift a recipe up in level, you need to use the same salvage as if you were crafting it over again.
I'd say yes, as long as the range of the IO goes that far. It would just cost a lot of inf. Maybe additional salvage too. But that might make it more complex than it needs to be.Quote:Could you upgrade something from level 10 to 50 in one step? Or would you need to have each level be a separate crafting? Maybe 5 level steps?
Partially where I got the idea. If you think about it, combining two lvl 50 SO's is just a recipe for a 50+, where the components are the two 50s.Quote:Mostly unrelated, but SO's can be combined. We can't do that with IO's, but maybe we should be able to.
As far as an interface, I was thinking that maybe if you went to the invention table you could have a 'Recipes' tab and an 'Enhancements' tab; the Enhancements tab would list whatever you had in your tray, similar to the recipe inventory. In this case the details of what is required for crafting might include a level slider (it might be that enhancements would have to create multiple entries; one for levels 20-25, one for 26-40, one for 41-50 for a Positron's Blast for example). -
I originally posted this idea in the Market/IO forum (see http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=214016). Reception was positive, so I'm reposting the idea here. If that's a no-no, I'm fine with the mods moving/merging threads.
What if the existing invention tables allowed you to change the level of already crafted IO?
Essentially, tweak the system so that an existing IO is a component for building a new IO, just like a recipe or piece of salvage; the IO destroyed and the new IO produced are the same kind of IO, but a different level. Something like:
Lvl 48 Obliteration: A/D/R/E + 2M Inf + Mathematic Proof = Lvl 50 Obliteration
Of course this doesn't have to be one-way; say you really want one of a lower level:
Lvl 44 Obliteration: A/D/R/E + 11M Inf + Inert Gas = Lvl 33 Obliteration: A/D/R/E
I picked 1M per level of change here because it was a nice even number. Maybe that's too much, maybe it's not enough, that could be discussed. Either way, I think it should be scaled by rarity; something like 100k/level for Pool A, 250k/level for Pool B, 1M/level for Pool C.
Some possible benefits I could see:
1. Devs don't have to change existing methods of drops or merit/ticket rolls
2. Greater availability for IO at different levels. Yes, 50s may still churn out level 50 recipes and craft level 50 enhancements. But they don't have to stay that way.
3. An evening out of recipe/IO [market] costs by level. If a L49 can be converted to a L50 for 1M, the price of the L49 shouldn't be extraordinarily lower than the L50.
4. It's minor, but if it would require salvage it could increase demand, if only *very* slightly.
5. We need influence sinks. Anything that gets inf out of the system is good, right? Maybe the crafting fee here isn't even steep enough and should be more. Either way, this is something that would be geared toward those with inf (or possibly those wanting to make their products more attractive on the market).
Any thoughts? I'm looking for possible drawbacks/exploits, and I'm curious what the effect on the market could be with such a system. There may be consequences I haven't fully thought out.[/QUOTE] -
Quote:The 1M may be too high - again, that's something that would need to be studied some. And that number was just for the Gold/Merit roll; I think Pool A/B (Bronze/Silver) should be on cheaper scales than the other recipes (I'd thrown out 100k/250k).Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
It's certainly interesting.
Personally, I wouldn't bother upgrading an IO just one or two levels. The increase in it's bonuses just isn't enough to be worth it.
Now, I have a L19(?) crafted IO that I can't give away on the BM. (One of the Recharge Intensive Pets sets. I crafted it because it dropped and I thought another character of mine could use it to get the last bonus out of the set. Turned out to be a duplicate.) If I bumped it up into the 40's, it would be worth something. But if that costs 20 Million+, then I'll probably be taking a loss if I try to sell it. So I'd be worse off than if I deleted it now.
If the cost of upgrading is too high, then it won't be used.
A L19 Recharge Intensive would have to be Call to Arms? That would cap at L30 anyway (Expedient Reinforcement going from 30-50). You're right, something like that may or may not be worth tweaking. I don't think the proc would. I don't know how the other Gold/Merit roll (E/D/R) sells. -
I'm happy to see this idea is going over well so far.
I'll address some of peterpeter's questions, because they're good ones.
Quote:I'd say no. I wouldn't want folks buying cheap unwanted 50s, downgrading them to extract Inf, then discarding them. I think this is just something you're willing to pay for for the utility - be it for optimizing level for exemplaring, or buying a higher level and downgrading it so you can use it earlier (say, buy a 40, downgrade to 35 to use on a 32).Originally Posted by peterpeter
I like it. Having so many recipes at 50 and so few at 30 is a problem. I wonder how some of the details would work.
Should it cost money to lower the level of an IO, or should you earn money as the level goes down, like you're extracting value?
Yes - absolutely bound to their existing level ranges.Quote:Originally Posted by peterpeter
What about enhancements that only exist within a certain level range? I assume they would still be bound by those levels.
I'd say this should just be for unslotted enhancements. If you got a drop a few levels ago and didn't get around to crafting it (or just had no room to slot it), you might want to boost it a few levels. But if it's something already slotted, you need to free it up using a respec in order to modify it.Quote:Would people buy recipes in the 30's and then upgrade them as they leveled? If so, what effect would that have? Fewer transactions on the market? Less inf but more recipes? I'm not sure.
That's a possibility. I do think salvage should be involved somehow.Quote:It might make sense that, to shift a recipe up in level, you need to use the same salvage as if you were crafting it over again.
I'd say yes, as long as the range of the IO goes that far. It would just cost a lot of inf. Maybe additional salvage too. But that might make it more complex than it needs to be.Quote:Could you upgrade something from level 10 to 50 in one step? Or would you need to have each level be a separate crafting? Maybe 5 level steps?
Partially where I got the idea. If you think about it, combining two lvl 50 SO's is just a recipe for a 50+, where the components are the two 50s.Quote:Mostly unrelated, but SO's can be combined. We can't do that with IO's, but maybe we should be able to.
As far as an interface, I was thinking that maybe if you went to the invention table you could have a 'Recipes' tab and an 'Enhancements' tab; the Enhancements tab would list whatever you had in your tray, similar to the recipe inventory. In this case the details of what is required for crafting might include a level slider (it might be that enhancements would have to create multiple entries; one for levels 20-25, one for 26-40, one for 41-50 for a Positron's Blast for example). -
Quote:Yes...yes we do. Everyone defeats mobs (well, in this case everyone playing at level 50). Not everyone always runs TF.Originally Posted by lukewarmdog
Casuals who want to purple out their toons are the perfect market for this change but they are the same people who claim to be too casual to even run a task force. They want purples to drop whilst street cleaning.
(Ok, maybe not street cleaning. But I've gotten 6-7 purples in the past week and a half just by running missions. I'm running missions rather than TF because I could be pulled away from the computer at any moment because that's how having a wife and kids is. When they're away visiting relatives in a couple of weeks, I'll be happy to load up on TF/SF.) -
Apologies in advance for not posting this in Suggestions, but it seemed like an idea that could be vetted on the market forum first as it could deal with some issues we already discuss here - inflation, uneven level supply of IO, market prices.
The idea is pretty simple, and it could be one that has already been discussed. For that I also apologize in advance.
What if the existing invention tables allowed you to change the level of already crafted IO?
Essentially, tweak the system so that an existing IO is a component for building a new IO, just like a recipe or piece of salvage; the IO destroyed and the new IO produced are the same kind of IO, but a different level. Something like:
Lvl 48 Obliteration: A/D/R/E + 2M Inf + Mathematic Proof = Lvl 50 Obliteration
Of course this doesn't have to be one-way; say you really want one of a lower level:
Lvl 44 Obliteration: A/D/R/E + 11M Inf + Inert Gas = Lvl 33 Obliteration: A/D/R/E
I picked 1M per level of change here because it was a nice even number. Maybe that's too much, maybe it's not enough, that could be discussed. Either way, I think it should be scaled by rarity; something like 100k/level for Pool A, 250k/level for Pool B, 1M/level for Pool C.
Some possible benefits I could see:
1. Devs don't have to change existing methods of drops or merit/ticket rolls
2. Greater availability for IO at different levels. Yes, 50s may still churn out level 50 recipes and craft level 50 enhancements. But they don't have to stay that way.
3. An evening out of recipe/IO [market] costs by level. If a L49 can be converted to a L50 for 1M, the price of the L49 shouldn't be extraordinarily lower than the L50.
4. It's minor, but if it would require salvage it could increase demand, if only *very* slightly.
5. We need influence sinks. Anything that gets inf out of the system is good, right? Maybe the crafting fee here isn't even steep enough and should be more. Either way, this is something that would be geared toward those with inf (or possibly those wanting to make their products more attractive on the market).
Any thoughts? I'm sure there have to be some drawbacks, and I'm curious what the effect on the market could be with such a system. I'm sure there are consequences I haven't fully thought out.